1. #4801
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, you're absolutely right here and I am not disagreeing with this point. I'm just making a clarification that you can't just point at Meteor man existing and say 'Well remember this is all a work of fiction' to handwave any rules being established by the show. The Elves aren't being depicted the same way as the Meteor Man.

    We can point at Meteor man to establish that realism might not apply because it is an example of where the fiction diverged from realism. Hence it might diverge from realism in another spot. We weren't warned before hand for Meteor Man so we don't have to be warned before hand for water in the lungs. It is fiction. It can be anything the author wants because the authority on those internal rules is the author.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Not knowing that the sea could/would turn people into birds I figured her and Númenorian’s saying that and “the sea is always right” was just some generic fate stuff but it sounds more likely now that they are just right on the money which makes her jumping off the boat a lot more reasonable if she was expecting divine help one way or another.
    I don't think she expected it. There is also a case where Tolkien had "one of the gods" save an elf by having a wave rescue only that elf and carry it all the way to land. So she might have hoped she would have divine help but I don't think it is the case that she knew.
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  2. #4802
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We can point at Meteor man to establish that realism might not apply because it is an example of where the fiction diverged from realism. Hence it might diverge from realism in another spot. We weren't warned before hand for Meteor Man so we don't have to be warned before hand for water in the lungs. It is fiction. It can be anything the author wants because the authority on those internal rules is the author.
    Meteor Man doesn't actually conflict with the internal established rules for how Elf and Human physiology works. It's an apples and oranges argument which is literally what I was pointing out here.

    Just because Apples don't have to all look the same or be a single color suddenly mean they can become Oranges. There are still rules in this world that are establishing a difference between Meteor Man and any other race we've been introduced to so far. There are still rules that apply to even Meteor Man, we simply aren't aware of what those limits would be yet.

    Just because Meteor Man exists doesn't mean Elves can suddenly fly, make sense?

  3. #4803
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I don't think she expected it. There is also a case where Tolkien had "one of the gods" save an elf by having a wave rescue only that elf and carry it all the way to land. So she might have hoped she would have divine help but I don't think it is the case that she knew.
    Comes across alot as a leap of faith for me with the further context. She doesn’t know for sure she’ll get help but she’s certain that she’s right so has faith it will work out even if she doesn’t know in what form her salvation will take.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #4804
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Meteor Man doesn't actually conflict with the internal established rules for how Elf and Human physiology works.
    This is an textbook example of you being contrary to be contrary. Because you claim that an elf or human could fall from the sky in a fireball and that the show was established they are that capable. Meteor Man existing means that elves could suddenly fly if the author wants to. Because the author is not bound by only displaying what is real.

    The rules are only ever what the author wants the rules to be. What is stopping an author from changing the rules they wrote to allow for elves to suddenly fly?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #4805
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    This is an textbook example of you being contrary to be contrary. Because you claim that an elf or human could fall from the sky in a fireball and that the show was established they are that capable. Meteor Man existing means that elves could suddenly fly if the author wants to. Because the author is not bound by only displaying what is real.

    The rules are only ever what the author wants the rules to be. What is stopping an author from changing the rules they wrote to allow for elves to suddenly fly?
    Nothing prevents them from changing the rules, but if they are not consistent with anything that was pre-established in the narrative THEN the suspension of disbelief for the audience is subject to be broken. That is generally seen as a result of bad or inconsistent writing.

    If Elves suddenly started flying or dropping out of the sky then yeah, people are gonna go WTF. And yes, Meteor Man is definitely a WTF moment but it's framed in a way where they intentionally leave it mysterious so we don't know who or what he is. If they confirm him to BE an Elf or Human then yeah, that would fuck up quite a lot of the established world wouldn't it? Right now, we don't know enough to even judge if he is, which is why the suspension of disbelief is still intact.

    There is no case where anything goes just because it's a work of fiction and anything can be done at the behest of the Author at any time. That is where criticisms come in to specifically point out inconsistencies. Just like the whole reason Tolkien put this to paper in the first place, because Christopher Tolkien was pointing out inconsistencies in his descriptions in the color of Bilbo's door or the ornamentation on Thorin's hood.

    I think I've made it clear why Meteor Man is not a good example of waving away internal rules of 'realism' just because it is fiction. Meteor Man doesn't contradict anything that has been established prior, because there is no confirmation of who or what he really is.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 08:52 PM.

  6. #4806
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Nothing prevents them from changing the rules, but if they are not consistent with anything that was pre-established in the narrative THEN the suspension of disbelief for the audience is subject to be broken.
    So if nothing prevents them from changing the rules then they can be changed at any time including making elves suddenly be able to fly. You again defeat your own contrary opinion with your own argument. Lmao.

    And yes, Meteor Man is definitely a WTF moment but it's framed in a way where they intentionally leave it mysterious so we don't know who or what he is.
    This shows the double standard that is being applied between something you like and something you wouldn't like. A man falling from the sky is mysterious and an perfectly acceptable sudden change. However elves flying would be an unacceptable sudden change. Inconsistencies in the description of object is not relevant to this discussion. Those are continuity errors and not internal rules.
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  7. #4807
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So if nothing prevents them from changing the rules then they can be changed at any time including making elves suddenly be able to fly. You again defeat your own contrary opinion with your own argument. Lmao.
    Yes, they could.

    And there would be legitimate reason to criticize the changes. The author has the power to change it, and the audience has the choice to reject it and not accept it. It can be attributed to being a bad change.

    Such things are already true with Greedo Shot First in the Star Wars community, where Lucas chose to make that canon while fans generally do not recognize it to be a legitimate part of the series, and continue to regard Han Shot First as the legimate sequence of events.

    This shows the double standard that is being applied between something you like and something you wouldn't like. A man falling from the sky is mysterious and an perfectly acceptable sudden change. However elves flying would be an unacceptable sudden change. Inconsistencies in the description of object is not relevant to this discussion. Those are continuity errors and not internal rules.
    Again, it doesn't change anything because whoever fell out of the sky is not immediately a 'man'. It is a mysterious being in the form of a man, and we know such things exist in the established fiction of the show. This is how Sauron himself is depicted, who is a being known to take many forms and have many names.

    Like, part of the whole mystery of the Stranger is that he COULD be Sauron. That is why it's not a contradiction like you are trying to argue it to be. We already know such beings exist in this very show's established universe. Beings that are greater than Men and Elves.

    All the while, your argument implies that since this is all fiction, then there's no line to draw and Elves can be god-like if the author wants them to be just because it's 'fiction'. Well there are rules in place that would prevent that from happening, and if they were to happen, be scrutinized as breaking the show's internal rules and be criticized for being products of poor writing choices.

    For the Meteor Man in particular, this hasn't happened.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 09:07 PM.

  8. #4808
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Comes across alot as a leap of faith for me with the further context. She doesn’t know for sure she’ll get help but she’s certain that she’s right so has faith it will work out even if she doesn’t know in what form her salvation will take.
    That's how I read it, probably with a "prayer" to Ulmo but from what happened next I'd say Ossë was probably involved.

  9. #4809
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And there would be legitimate reason to criticize the changes. The author has the power to change it, and the audience has the choice to reject it and not accept it. It can be attributed to being a bad change.
    That exists regardless and is not reliant on "internal rules" never being allowed to be changed by an author. Your own argument about the meteor man not being "immediately" a man is defeated by you also saying he is in the form of a man. Did the show tell you that? Or is that your assumption because you've decided it defies what a man should be. How do you not that humans in the fiction of the show do not sometimes fall from the sky?

    You are subjectively applying your argument based on if you like or dislike a rule being changed. You were fine with the meteor man falling from the sky so a sudden change from "internal rules" is fine. You'd dislike elves suddenly flying off even though it is the same as a human suddenly surviving a fall from the sky.
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  10. #4810
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That exists regardless and is not reliant on "internal rules" never being allowed to be changed by an author. Your own argument about the meteor man not being "immediately" a man is defeated by you also saying he is in the form of a man. Did the show tell you that? Or is that your assumption because you've decided it defies what a man should be. How do you not that humans in the fiction of the show do not sometimes fall from the sky?
    And what would your answer be based on your own logic?

    That it is fiction therefore it is normal for men to fall out of the sky? And that you would consider it normal for normal men to fall out of the sky, and you wouldn't question it either way because this happens to be a work of fiction?


    I'm arguing that an internal logic still exists, and the presence of a 'Meteor man' would logically assume that this may not be a man. And we know godly beings in mortal form already exist in the established fiction of the show, therefore it can be reasonable to assume that's what he may be. Your example isn't a natural means of pointing out a contradiction, because they aren't really contradictions considering the show has already established the existence of greater/godly beings who choose to take the form of mortals.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 09:26 PM.

  11. #4811
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That it is fiction therefore it is normal for men to fall out of the sky?
    So what rules do authors of fiction have to follow if not the ones they create themselves? You keep saying it is fine that authors create their own rules while arguing that it is a problem. Any inconsistency with the real world is because the work is fiction. Have you never learned the difference between non-fiction and fiction? Lmao. So if an elf doesn't behave underwater like the real world it is because it is a work of fiction. Simple as that.

    Of course internal logic still exists which is why using realism to define internal logic doesn't work. Because it is not required to be realistic. The scene in question, being unconscious underwater, doesn't even break with realism. Nothing brought up so far has contradicted what is shown for "internal rules" which is why this is a red herring you've latched on to in order to keep arguing for the sake of it.
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  12. #4812
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So what rules do authors of fiction have to follow if not the ones they create themselves?
    Those ARE the rules they need to follow. The ones that they establish.

    Again, when you make the example of Meteor man exists, you are doing so to illustrate how Elves do not have to be bound to any form of 'realism' logic. Yet they do, and that realism is whatever the author creates.

    And the current fiction for Elves is that they are prone to mortal death, like through fatigue, throat-slitting and drowning. That would imply that they would not be immune to the effects of falling from the sky like a Meteor. And Meteor Man does not establish this as a change or new rule that applies to either Elves or Men, because as I have said, he has not been established TO BE a mere mortal. We are talking about a world where beings like Sauron exist, who is greater than mere mortals and capable of taking many forms, including that of mortals.

    So with your own example, you haven't actually made any point of the fiction having broken any of its internal rules of 'realism', because we're talking about a fictional setting where gods walk amongst men in mortal form while Elves and Men are still prone to physical deaths.

    You keep saying it is fine that authors create their own rules while arguing that it is a problem.
    I didn't say it was a problem. I said your explanation that "We're talking about a setting where Meteor Man exists" and does not dismiss the internally defined realism of the fiction.

    Of course internal logic still exists which is why using realism to define internal logic doesn't work. Because it is not required to be realistic. The scene in question, being unconscious underwater, doesn't even break with realism. Nothing brought up so far has contradicted what is shown for "internal rules" which is why this is a red herring you've latched on to in order to keep arguing for the sake of it.
    Realism is relative to the works.

    You might be talking about Real World realism, but that is not the only type that exists. Realism also exists in a fictional universe and is defined by its own rules. That is why I'm using the example of Elves flying. That would not be realistic in the Tolkien setting of Middle Earth, even in adaptations, because there are certain rules at play. It would be fine in any other setting that does establish flying Elves, but not one in this particular universe and its adaptations. And in this particular example, the Tolkien Estate would likely be the gatekeepers for something like that.

    Specifically for the Underwater scene, there is no reason to assume their physiology would be all that different from Humans considering the show has internally defined them as being similar to Humans in terms of mortality against their environments. They have not, and are not, establishing that Elves are somehow resistant to drowning. That being said, I still say it's debateable whether she actually was unconscious in the first place, since she seemed to be swimming and gasping for air just fine, and was not waterlogged in the least.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 09:41 PM.

  13. #4813
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Those ARE the rules they need to follow. The ones that they establish.
    Which means they can change the rules whenever they want because they establish what they are. There are no "internal rules of reaslim". Fiction isn't real so is not bound by what is only possible in the real world. That is the entire definition of Fiction. Lmao.
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  14. #4814
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which means they can change the rules whenever they want because they establish what they are. There are no "internal rules of reaslim". Fiction isn't real so is not bound by what is only possible in the real world. That is the entire definition of Fiction. Lmao.
    Er, yes there are. It is how believable a fictional world is by means of grounding itself in reality or having its 'fantastic' elements be realistically plausible in the context of the fictional world

    It's called verisimilitude


    And for the most part, the Meteor Man still works in the confines of the fictional universe. As long as they don't merely confirm him to be mortal, his existence is still grounded as a plausible and believable part of the fictional universe.

    I would actually argue that Galadriel's depiction in this series (so far) lacks verismilitude. Her character is not entirely believable, considering she should be a mere mortal Elf yet seems to be unnaturally lucky or immune to consequences of her environment (ie - not feeling fatigue, not getting locked up in Numenor even when caught, etc). She is a non-supernatural being who seems to have special priveledges beyond her capabilities.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 09:52 PM.

  15. #4815
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Er, yes there are.
    Which real world rules is a work of fiction required to follow? Suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with following realism. That term specifically has to do with things that are not possible in reality. Lmao. An example of suspension of disbelief would be ignoring that it is impossible for Galadrial to swim across an ocean yet she was trying to do so anyways.
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  16. #4816
    Whilst overall I agree with @Triceron that there needs to be some overall consistency to a fantasy like RoP, in the specific example of the drowning scene I don't think it really applies. It's about the drama and aesthetics of the scene and the biological mechanisms of unconscious humans drowning and their applicability to Elves really doesn't matter.

  17. #4817
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Er, yes there are. It is how believable a fictional world is by means of grounding itself in reality or having its 'fantastic' elements be realistically plausible in the context of the fictional world

    It's called verisimilitude
    That's not the same thing. In fact it can't be, because it only works BECAUSE of its relation to ACTUAL rules - i.e. the rules of real-world reality, which cannot be broken. Fiction CAN break them; which is why they're not rules to fiction, only to reality, and the "verisimilitude" you're talking about (which is really just realism) is effectively just a measure of degrees of breakage. But that's with respect to the rules of reality. There's no rules like that for fiction.

    Suspension of disbelief is the degree of acceptance of deviation from those rules. Effectively, it's a negotiation by which the importance of the rules is foregone in favor of the importance of enjoyment. But that - again - is always with respect to the rules of the real world. They are the only measuring stick we have.

    (And of course these are descriptive rules, not prescriptive rules. That's why you can't break them. The speed of light, for example, is not a "rule" like, say, the speed limit in a school zone - if we were to discover the speed of light isn't as absolute as we thought, the rule would be CHANGED, not broken.)

    That's not to say that there isn't some value to internal self-consistency in fiction, of course. But that's not the same thing. And it's important to keep that distinction in mind.

  18. #4818
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which real world rules is a work of fiction required to follow?
    I never said anything about having it be tied to real world rules. So none.

    I've clearly said 'Realism' is a definition for something that is plausibly believable to be real. It doesn't mean automatically mean 'sourced from real life'. Such an example is a painting that looks realistic but isn't based on any real life thing or location.

    Suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with following realism.
    No, it doesn't.

    Verisimilitude does.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 10:05 PM.

  19. #4819
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    ...lol

    Even if she was strong enough to swim against being pulled down by a big chunk of wood/metal/rope, it wouldn't much matter if she was fucking unconscious. Which...you know:
    Yeah, also point the bit where she become unconcious for no reason, to proof how this is obnoxiously inconcistent,

    Either way, the point still stands, it would not sink and pull her tht fast, its not a fucking anchor.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    https://www.piecesofship.com/pageShi...ckPulleys.html

    The weight of block pulley can vary. One on the page I linked to is 74 lbs. It is possible they could way more. Without doing a myth busters level of scientific inquiry into buoyancy and stuff it seems plausible.
    It does not, its a piece of wood with rope and some metal bits, it would not sink that fast and that hard, its absurd like many other things in this show

  20. #4820
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which real world rules is a work of fiction required to follow? Suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with following realism. That term specifically has to do with things that are not possible in reality. Lmao. An example of suspension of disbelief would be ignoring that it is impossible for Galadrial to swim across an ocean yet she was trying to do so anyways.
    People in this thread have talked a big game about how LotR is supposed to be English folklore, but I seem to recall a certain earlier work of English folklore that featured a guy talking about his week-long swimming race against his friend...that ended with him killing a dozen sea monsters while armed with nothing but a sword and a mail shirt.

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