1. #4821
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    or you know they captured the watch post before there trench thing was moved with in its view. It’s even likely they took the post when black elf went to check on his girl friend which is why the other elfs were already there before he was captured exploring a tunnel in a distant town.
    Or you know, they didn't, and its the show being awful and inconsistent as the thing is too big and wide people with far sight would definetly notice, specially knowing how many time it would have taken to do that

    saying a military enforce group of elves were captured by orcs is also completely nonsensical, they are incompetent fuckers. Also, it don't make any sense to keep Rondir or whatever is his name alive, to meet the guy, its just plot armor, they didn't come up with a single good reason of why he should be kept alive, again, awful writing.

    This show is full of plotholes with you trying to fill the massive gaps of logic and storytelling, this is not how a show like this should be done

    no but the human girl friends son is notably Asian and given that they are leaving for some where else in the south lands it’s fairly certain that we’ll see the black villagers when ever we see where they went.
    Right, point still stands

  2. #4822
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Yeah, also point the bit where she become unconcious for no reason, to proof how this is obnoxiously inconcistent,
    from the looks of it if you pause at the right moment the piece of wood she was holding onto hits her in the head as she goes into the water.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #4823
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    It would be impossible to Galadriel swim across the ocean from elfland to middle earth, period, She even confirm herself saying the Numenor people rescued her from certain death

    She knew it was impossible, she knew it was certain death, but she tried anyway, she 100% tried to commit suicide

    That, or she knew she was going to be saved cause plot armor, which is again, bad writing

  4. #4824
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Or you know, they didn't, and its the show being awful and inconsistent as the thing is too big and wide people with far sight would definetly notice, specially knowing how many time it would have taken to do that

    saying a military enforce group of elves were captured by orcs is also completely nonsensical, they are incompetent fuckers.
    We have no way of knowing where the trench would have been while the elf's were still manning the watch tower, the only idea we get is that they tunneled ahead of it to capture slaves at the same time the elf's were leaving the tower and that was a town away from the elf's, so there is no reason to think it was viewable from there outpost given that it hadn't even gotten to the second town while they were still on guard.

    they didn't come up with a single good reason of why he should be kept alive, again, awful writing.
    that's what the next episode and meeting the leader is for.

    This show is full of plotholes with you trying to fill the massive gaps of logic and storytelling, this is not how a show like this should be done
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-09-14 at 10:14 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #4825
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    She knew it was impossible, she knew it was certain death, but she tried anyway, she 100% tried to commit suicide
    That doesn't follow, logically.

    "It's impossible to swim to safety" does not equal "I want to die". At best, it equals "I'll probably die", which only means she preferred the off chance of something unlikely happening to the alternative; NOT that she intentionally WANTED to die.

    It's like jumping out of the Xth-floor window of a burning building. Sure you'll PROBABLY die anyway, and it's unlikely you'll ever survive a fall like that; but not impossible. That doesn't mean you're committing suicide, you're just taking a chance on a very very slim outcome because the alternative is worse to you.

  6. #4826
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    from the looks of it if you pause at the right moment the piece of wood she was holding onto hits her in the head as she goes into the water.
    And a small piece of wood would knock the mighty Galadriel unconscious, the one showed since episode one as relentless, resistant and powerful

    Again, see what i mean? inconsistency and bad storytelling, it would have worked just fine if it was the human, But they want us to believe the one that one shot the ice troll would faint from a piece of wood, then go under the sea and not wake up? (cause without major injuries the brain could wake you up if you stop breathing)

    Like i said, this is not the end of the world, but its bad, it feel bad to watch, a lot of things that happens in this series, if removed, would make it much better

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    We have no way of knowing where the trench would have been while the elf's were still manning the watch tower, the only idea we get is that they tunneled ahead of it to capture slaves at the same time the elf's were leaving the tower and that was a town away from the elf's, so there is no reason to think it was viewable from there outpost given that it hadn't even gotten to the second town while they were still on guard.
    ep, we have no way of knowing shit, because the series don't tell or show shit, what we have is a bunch of incompetent elves and a big wide area without trees, and no one fucking notice.

    And again, tis too big, it had to be taken at least months.

    that's what the next episode and meeting the leader is for.
    Yeah sure, 100% they will say it the big reason

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That doesn't follow, logically.

    "It's impossible to swim to safety" does not equal "I want to die". At best, it equals "I'll probably die", which only means she preferred the off chance of something unlikely happening to the alternative; NOT that she intentionally WANTED to die.
    My dude, she spelled out, "you save us from certain death", its was 100% suicide and she knew, and she did know because she is Galadriel 5 thousand years old one of the wisest and intelligent elves to live.

    You are basically gambling that someone like Galadriel, would gamble with her life, that she jump to certain death, risking to never complete her vengeance, with the small hopes of finding something in the ocean that would save her from certain death.

    It's like jumping out of the Xth-floor window of a burning building. Sure you'll PROBABLY die anyway, and it's unlikely you'll ever survive a fall like that; but not impossible. That doesn't mean you're committing suicide, you're just taking a chance on a very very slim outcome because the alternative is worse to you.
    Except she was not in a burning build right? except, the jump was so high that is no probably, you 100% would die, she just happen to jump in a safety net, because god put a safety net there.

    When she could, just, you know, take the fucking ship and head back, but then there would not be any drama

    Cause they are too fucking bad to make her ship sink/be destroyed by the sea monsters and everything happens the same

  7. #4827
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's not the same thing. In fact it can't be, because it only works BECAUSE of its relation to ACTUAL rules - i.e. the rules of real-world reality, which cannot be broken. Fiction CAN break them; which is why they're not rules to fiction, only to reality, and the "verisimilitude" you're talking about (which is really just realism) is effectively just a measure of degrees of breakage. But that's with respect to the rules of reality. There's no rules like that for fiction.
    Verisimilitude covers the believability of fiction within its own fictional world. An example is Time Travel and flying cars being a plausible thing in Back to the Future, and the paradoxes of Time Travel (fading photographs) being regarded authentically within the context of the movies. It works and it feels realistic within the context of these movies because the rules they have defined are consistent and believable, even if all the science is made-up.

    And a key part of maintaining verisimilitude is having a consistent internal logic to the fiction, something that RoP is very hit-and-miss at especially when defining certain cultural normalities or the sheer dumb luck of characters getting out of a perceived 'impossible' scenario. And for whatever reason, most, if not all, of my own criticisms fall squarely on Galadriel's arc. I find the rest of the show works for me and doesn't often take me out of it.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 10:35 PM.

  8. #4828
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    And a small piece of wood would knock the mighty Galadriel unconscious, the one showed since episode one as relentless, resistant and powerful

    Again, see what i mean? inconsistency and bad storytelling
    It's not incositent at all we never see her take a blow before that point let alone a 2 by 4 to the back of the head.

    ep, we have no way of knowing shit, because the series don't tell or show shit, what we have is a bunch of incompetent elves and a big wide area without trees, and no one fucking notice.
    I mean it does tell us that it's further away then the town over and that they had more hidden tunnels to capture slaves which seemingly go pretty far given that black elf was exploring them the whole time his girl friend went back to town failed to convince any one fought an orc and then brought the orc head to the inn.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  9. #4829
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It's not incositent at all we never see her take a blow before that point let alone a 2 by 4 to the back of the head.
    ITs unbelievable how far can you go with this, without laughing with what you said.

    Thhe entire seris showing he was stronger and more resistant to other elves, by one shoting the troll, by climbing the mountain better than everyone, without being cold, without getting tired.

    And it comes a fucking piece of wood and knock her would for good, Christ all mighty, and you come with "we never saw her being hit by a wood before" come on, that is desperate

    I mean it does tell us that it's further away then the town over and that they had more hidden tunnels to capture slaves which seemingly go pretty far given that black elf was exploring them the whole time his girl friend went back to town failed to convince any one fought and orc and then brought the orc head to the inn.
    Yeah, everything is nonsensical

    Oh man, don't bring that orc scene where she cut his head, what an awful and inconsistent scene

  10. #4830
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    My dude, she spelled out, "you save us from certain death", its was 100% suicide and she knew
    Again, that doesn't follow logically.

    Suicide means WANTING to die. Just being in a situation where you'll die UNLESS someone saves you doesn't mean you got into that situation with the INTENTION of dying.

    It's not suicide unless you intended to die. It might be reckless, it might be stupid, it might be any number of things; but it's not suicide unless you do it with the goal of death in mind.

    She likely knew that the odds of her surviving were very slim. That doesn't mean she wanted to die. It only means she was willing to take a chance. Even a very small chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And a key part of maintaining verisimilitude is having a consistent internal logic to the fiction
    As I said, that's a different thing. Realism is about how well something conforms to the rules of reality; consistency is how well it follows its own rules. Those are not the same thing, and can't be treated the same. And it's ESPECIALLY problematic when the two mix, i.e. when people bring in realism to square off against consistency. Both arguments have merit on their own, but it becomes extremely tricky when you try to cross from one into the other. And people need to keep that very much in mind when making their arguments.

  11. #4831
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It's not incositent at all we never see her take a blow before that point let alone a 2 by 4 to the back of the head.
    If we take that scene as you say, then there's little reason she should be capable of swimming and gasping for air as soon as they reach the surface and be able to climb on the raft faster than Halbrand, enough to even help him back up.

    Like, even this explanation would have pretty significant inconsistency to it.

    It makes more sense if she wasn't actually unconscious underwater, and merely in a daze.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 10:43 PM.

  12. #4832
    Didn't Frodo fall into the Dead Marshes not in control of his faculties? He wasn't unconscious, but he was certainly bedazzled or hypnotized and didn't take a breath as he fell in.

    He was under for more than 10 seconds, and was fine. I don't remember anyone having to pump water out of him.

    This is all just......storytelling license. Getting caught up in such pedantic mundaneness is a sign of one of two things, imo: 1) a desire to shit on the property at hand for quite normal storytelling, or 2) an unimaginative person whose suspension of disbelief is so delicate as to not be happy with any fiction.

    (I know what the responses will be - "because he was conscious he could have accidentally or subconsciously taken a breath" or "he was pulled out by Gollum quicker" or some such other pedantic quibbling over the difference in details.)

  13. #4833
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    ITs unbelievable how far can you go with this, without laughing with what you said.

    Thhe entire seris showing he was stronger and more resistant to other elves, by one shoting the troll, by climbing the mountain better than everyone, without being cold, without getting tired.

    And it comes a fucking piece of wood and knock her would for good, Christ all mighty, and you come with "we never saw her being hit by a wood before" come on, that is desperate
    I'm sorry you don't know how blows to the head or blacking out works I guess?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If we take that scene as you say, then there's little reason she should be capable of swimming and gasping for air as soon as they reach the surface and be able to climb on the raft faster than Halbrand, enough to even help him back up.

    Like, even this explanation would have pretty significant inconsistency to it.
    I mean if you can show what the recovery process for an elf knocked unconscious is like go for it otherwise there is no inconsistency just like the whole back and forth on rather elf's would take in water automatically like the last few pages.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #4834
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Didn't Frodo fall into the Dead Marshes not in control of his faculties? He wasn't unconscious, but he was certainly bedazzled or hypnotized and didn't take a breath as he fell in.

    He was under for more than 10 seconds, and was fine. I don't remember anyone having to pump water out of him.

    This is all just......storytelling license. Getting caught up in such pedantic mundaneness is a sign of one of two things, imo: 1) a desire to shit on the property at hand for quite normal storytelling, or 2) an unimaginative person whose suspension of disbelief is so delicate as to not be happy with any fiction.

    (I know what the responses will be - "because he was conscious he could have accidentally or subconsciously taken a breath" or "he was pulled out by Gollum quicker" or some such other pedantic quibbling over the difference in details.)
    More like the less issues in a story the more likely people are to overlook the ones that do occur, as long as they don't strain belief too hard. This show has had many inconsistencies already, and added with the fact it strays so far from the story it is an adaptation for and what you end up with is a show that for some people has to many issues that they can no longer overlook.

    It is similar to the whole adaptation angle. If amazon had been honest from the start and said this is going to be a story based aroudn the world of Tolkien though not a direct adaptation of his stories, it would have gotten less flak. Yet you had the producers come out at every note saying it was going to be faithful, how they were going back to the book at every single choice, etc. You just feel lied too, you feel like they were trying to exploit you, and it gives you a very negative attitude towards them/the product they created. All this bad will means when they have a bunch of little fuck ups you no longer ignore/overlook them, you call them out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  15. #4835
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Hmm can’t say I know enough about the Irish to know what to look for in the case of the hobbits.

    The Scottish accent bit seems a bit odd though, dwarfs are obviously scot bashed but complaining just about the accent when they otherwise didn’t really play into actual Scottish stereotypes is weird to me.
    a bunch of drunk cunts who barely see the sun? yup scottish. I dont know what the dwarven equivalent of heroin is tho.

    The irish accent is jarring, didnt the leaf people in WoT also have a mock irish accent. I always think its meant to be gypsy thing.

  16. #4836
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    As I said, that's a different thing. Realism is about how well something conforms to the rules of reality; consistency is how well it follows its own rules. Those are not the same thing, and can't be treated the same. And it's ESPECIALLY problematic when the two mix, i.e. when people bring in realism to square off against consistency. Both arguments have merit on their own, but it becomes extremely tricky when you try to cross from one into the other. And people need to keep that very much in mind when making their arguments.
    Except I'm not talking about Realism as it relates to the real world. I have been clear that I'm talking about verisimilitude. You're the one who lumped them in as being one and the same in the part of your reply that I bolded.

    They do not mean the same thing.

    Realism requires realistic visuals and narrative according to REAL LIFE. Whereas verisimilitude in film requires something to be realistic to the story world that is created for the film.

    Thus, if Jaws had shown a swimmer in the water with the shark at some point and the shark didn’t care about the swimmer.

    The story would have lacked verisimilitude because that simply would not have been a realistic scenario for that world.

    Would it be realistic for reality? YES, but not for the world created by the Director of that film.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 11:00 PM.

  17. #4837
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    More like the less issues in a story the more likely people are to overlook the ones that do occur, as long as they don't strain belief too hard. This show has had many inconsistencies already, and added with the fact it strays so far from the story it is an adaptation for and what you end up with is a show that for some people has to many issues that they can no longer overlook.

    It is similar to the whole adaptation angle. If amazon had been honest from the start and said this is going to be a story based aroudn the world of Tolkien though not a direct adaptation of his stories, it would have gotten less flak. Yet you had the producers come out at every note saying it was going to be faithful, how they were going back to the book at every single choice, etc. You just feel lied too, you feel like they were trying to exploit you, and it gives you a very negative attitude towards them/the product they created. All this bad will means when they have a bunch of little fuck ups you no longer ignore/overlook them, you call them out.
    Ah, so forgive the mistakes in the ones you like, harp on the same mistakes on the one you dislike?

    Do you see how disingenuous that is? There's literally been 5 pages of the same posters trying to shit on this show for the whole thread shitting on this one particular thing that happens literally twice in the original LOTR (the first being when Sam was drowning at the end of Fellowship, for much longer than the Dead Marshes scene).

  18. #4838
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    It does not, its a piece of wood with rope and some metal bits, it would not sink that fast and that hard, its absurd like many other things in this show
    In general terms 8% to 10% of a persons body weight in concrete will cause that person to sink. The link I provided has one of those block pulleys weighing 74lbs. That is enough to pull her down. With out running a test it may or may not be enough to pull the chunk of mast down as well. If weights, buoyancy, and whatever else functions as it does in the real world that it is plausible.
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  19. #4839
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I mean if you can show what the recovery process for an elf knocked unconscious is like go for it otherwise there is no inconsistency just like the whole back and forth on rather elf's would take in water automatically like the last few pages.
    It would be inconsistent in a scene-to-scene basis, of having her shown unconscious at one moment and fully capable in the next. The 'timeskip' is the inconsistency that I'm talking about. There is no acknowledgement of her going from one state to the next. Thus it is inconsistent.

    If you are implying that Elves could easily recover from that so the show logic still works, it still means the scenes are inconsistent and lack the proper explanation to draw that conclusion. I mean, it's so ambiguous that I've been arguing that she was never unconscious to begin with, and the scenes would work just as well with that explanation. The inconsistency would only be present if applied to your specific explanation, which is what I was specifically pointing out.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 11:09 PM.

  20. #4840
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    from the looks of it if you pause at the right moment the piece of wood she was holding onto hits her in the head as she goes into the water.
    I figured it was just from the lightning but it does look like she could have been hit in the head as she fell in.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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