Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[UnifiedDivide]

If we honestly can't agree that her jumping off the ship where she did was extremely idiotic, I don't think we'll ever agree on anything. The fact that this thread is now discussing whether or not Elfs can or can't swim kinda proves it. The argument has been reduced to absurdity lol

This thread already discussed things as ridiculous as scissors lol

[InfiniteCharger]

If we honestly can't agree that her jumping off the ship where she did was extremely idiotic, I don't think we'll ever agree on anything. The fact that this thread is now discussing whether or not Elfs can or can't swim kinda proves it. The argument has been reduced to absurdity lol

If elves were such great swimmers, why do they need boats? But beyond that why not show them doing some kind of swimming in the flashback as some sort of 'coming of age' narrative and character development? Then her swimming could have more resonance in the overall story of her narrative. But even that doesn't fix the fact that the narrative of her winding up on the raft and then going to Numenor under circumstances beyond her control totally removes any and all agency from the character. Agency would have been her realizing at some point that she needed to go to Numenor to decipher the mark she discovered vs just winding up there just by literal accident. Not to mention it is never shown where she was swimming to in the first place which just isn't a narrative, versus a sequence of events that just happen.

[tikcol]

If elves were such great swimmers, why do they need boats? But beyond that why not show them doing some kind of swimming in the flashback as some sort of 'coming of age' narrative and character development? Then her swimming could have more resonance in the overall story of her narrative. But even that doesn't fix the fact that the narrative of her winding up on the raft and then going to Numenor under circumstances beyond her control totally removes any and all agency from the character. Agency would have been her realizing at some point that she needed to go to Numenor to decipher the mark she discovered vs just winding up there just by literal accident. Not to mention it is never shown where she was swimming to in the first place which just isn't a narrative, versus a sequence of events that just happen.

Those scenes were just blatantly dumb. They could have done it in so many different ways and they chose the worst. Especially since we know Galadriel at that point just didn't want to return, she wanted a realm of her own.

They could have made her simply escort the other elves to the harbor, or watching the other elves get killed by an ambush to reinforce her desire for vengeance. Instead they sent her miles into the ocean for a swim so she could meet whoever that dude actually is and get picked up by the Numenorean navy

Getting ordered like a girl-scout to return to base wasn't the best of ideas.

[Triceron]

The Unfinished tales has a story of an elf named Amroth that swam "off into the distance". There is also the Teleri that were taught everything about the Sea by Osse. Swimming is implied. The obvious counter to your argument is how many bathroom breaks does Tolkien write about?

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Amroth

This guy?

At dawn of the following morning, the storm dissipated. However, when Amroth awoke, he saw that the ship was already far from its port. Full of despair, Amroth screamed Nimrodel's name, threw himself into the water below and drowned.

[tikcol]

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Amroth

This guy?

At dawn of the following morning, the storm dissipated. However, when Amroth awoke, he saw that the ship was already far from its port. Full of despair, Amroth screamed Nimrodel's name, threw himself into the water below and drowned.

I swear some of these posters do some random google searches for the topics being discussed like "lotr elf swim" and copy/paste the first thing they find into this board without any regard or knowledge about what they're doing

[Gumble]

Hey, it could be worse.

You could have had a couple of untrained magic users decimate the a huge army of Orcs with magic they were never taught or had the ability to use, die in the process, and then be magically revived because someone felt bad, utterly removing any stakes or logic from the show from that point on.

/goes off to grumble about WoT..............

[rhorle]

This guy?

“The mariners with their Elvish sight for a long time could see him battling with the waves, until the rising sun gleamed through the clouds and far off lit his bright hair like a spark of gold. No eyes of Elves or Men ever saw him again in Middle- earth.”

If you take the text from the source it implies that he swam until no one could see him anymore and then drowned because he was never seen from again. It implies that elves are capable of swimming and won't drown as soon as the depth is greater than their height. I'm not even sure what you are trying to argue because the point isn't that elves can't drown but that elves can swim.

- - - Updated - - -

I swear some of these posters do some random google searches for the topics being discussed like "lotr elf swim" and copy paste the first thing they see here without any regard or knowledge about what they're doing

Lmao. Are you that eager to insult people that don't agree with your view point? Here is the text that implies he had the ability to swim far enough to go out of sight of watchers: “The mariners with their Elvish sight for a long time could see him battling with the waves, until the rising sun gleamed through the clouds and far off lit his bright hair like a spark of gold. No eyes of Elves or Men ever saw him again in Middle- earth.”

[Myradin]

A dude that swam out of sight range and then drowned doesnt exactly give me confidence in their ability to cross oceans.

[Triceron]

“The mariners with their Elvish sight for a long time could see him battling with the waves, until the rising sun gleamed through the clouds and far off lit his bright hair like a spark of gold. No eyes of Elves or Men ever saw him again in Middle- earth.”

If you take the text from the source it implies that he swam until no one could see him anymore and then drowned because he was never seen from again. It implies that elves are capable of swimming and won't drown as soon as the depth is greater than their height. I'm not even sure what you are trying to argue because the point isn't that elves can't drown but that elves can swim.

The Elf drowns in the sea. I don't know how you can cherry pick the first half to support some inane scenario where Galadriel doing the same would make sense, while ignoring the fact that Elves are still prone to death by their environments and are unable to swim across the sea on their own.

Sorry, but your example is self-defeating if you're trying to illustrate how well Elves can swim and bring up a story where one of the most physically fit Elves ever described ends up drowning in the open sea.

[rhorle]

The Elf drowns in the sea.

That was never in question. The only one cherry picking here is yourself so you can go off on a rant about the Galadriel scene again. The context of my post, and the discussion being had, was about the ability for elves to swim. A poster claimed that they couldn't and nothing in Tolkien's work indicated they could. The ability to swim is not just the ability to never drown. It is ignorant to even try and make that argument. The best swimmer in the real world can still drown. Does that mean no human can swim well? Lmao.

Learn how to understand context:

There is no reference of Tolkien elves knowing how to swim. An early draft of the Silmarillion featured mermaids teaching one half-elf to swim, while a pure elf failed to learn. Elves often sit, stand and walk near water, yet there is no reference of any elf ever swimming in thousands of pages of stories.

TLDR: Tolkien elves can't swim.

[Triceron]

Hey, it could be worse.

You could have had a couple of untrained magic users decimate the a huge army of Orcs with magic they were never taught or had the ability to use, die in the process, and then be magically revived because someone felt bad, utterly removing any stakes or logic from the show from that point on.

/goes off to grumble about WoT..............

Well that happened in the WoT finale. We're still 5 episodes away so....

[bledgor]

Well that happened in the WoT finale. We're still 5 episodes away so....

Listen I want to believe it won't get that bad, let me live with that lie for a few weeks more.

[DarkAmbient]

Following Tolkien lore/logic she would have to be roughly 4000-5000 years old, as she lived ~1400 years in the age of the trees (remember that in the year of the trees they tracked time different than later ages, at a scale of roughly 10 to 1), ~600 years in the 1st age, and then we have the 2nd age lasting ~3500 years.

Considering we have Isildur alive, a man who lived ~200 years, and his and many others actions lead to the end of the 2nd age with the defeat of Sauron, we can roughly tell we are at the end of the 2nd age, putting her at least in the 4000 if not 5000 range.

Now the show is doing whatever the fuck they want, so in theory she can be 100's of years old, cause they don't give a single fuck about lore. Galadriel SHOULD be wise/knowledge still at this point, as she is one of the eldest of the eldar, older than even high king Gil-Galad, but again Amazon is doing their own lore independent show so who knows.

I fucked up there with not taking into account the Valarian years. The Rings of Power were forged in SA 1500 so according to that she should be somewhere between 2000 and 3500 solar years old. But Isildur was born over 1700 years after the forging of the rings, and yet he's already alive. Like you said, they don't give a fuck.

[bledgor]

I fucked up there with not taking into account the Valarian years. The Rings of Power were forged in SA 1500 so according to that she should be somewhere between 2000 and 3500 solar years old. But Isildur was born over 1700 years after the forging of the rings, and yet he's already alive. Like you said, they don't give a fuck.

Then you have things like politician Elrond, who in a few short years I am supposed to believe becomes the 2nd hand man of Gil-Galad leading the forces of Elves and man against Sauron? Not to mention he shortly after the war marries Celebrian, who isn't even born yet (unless Galadriel just you know is an utter cunt and doesn't care about her child or husband).

They also fucked up his story by saying he wasn't invited to the meeting because it was for nobles, like mother fucking he is a descendant of Finwe, the first high king of the Noldor. This also makes him related somewhat distantly with Galadriel. Like you want to say he wasn't invited because he was half-elven or because of what Feanor did, still bad but at least some logic exists, but they once again took the worst path.

[rhorle]

They also fucked up his story by saying he wasn't invited to the meeting because it was for nobles, like mother fucking he is a descendant of Finwe, the first high king of the Noldor.

He wasn't invited to the council because he was not yet an elf-lord. So it wasn't about simply being a noble but being a "high enough" noble. Like excluding a prince in a meeting of Kings. Was it ever said that he was an elf-lord prior to founding Rivendell? As that happened after Eregion was destroyed which has yet to happen on the show.

Even if Tolkien did already consider him an elf-lord it is a small enough change to better show case a rise to greater political status for a character arc. It really isn't a big deal at all.

[Dhrizzle]

Cool, she still remains one of the eldest of the elves, and unless the plan is to make her COMPLETELY different at the end of the show compared to the beginning she should at least show SOME wisdom, but in the show she basically has none. By your logic Gil-Galad would be roughly 25-27 LY old, the mortal equivalent of 20 yet he has more wisdom and is high king.

Not my logic, assuming you're following the same scjeme i am then it is Tolkien's logic. Also where are you getting that Gil-galad is wiser? Galadriel might be going about it wrong but she is aware of the need to seek out and confront evil.

You guys ignore other elves exist and how they behave when you try to point out anything Galadriel related.

Or maybe it makes more sense to compare Galadriel to her peers like Fëanor and his sons? Their upbringing and heritage is close to Galadriels and their behaviour caused massive problems for the world (or "they were brats" as you would probably say.)

Not to mention I also used numbers from the lore, which are the years Tolkien described. My numbers are also still back by what is in the Silmarillion, at the start of the 2nd age Galadriel was 2000 years old roughly, so minimally she was one of the eldest Eldar. Stop making bullshit excuses for Amazons bad adaptation. They don't need your help they are already buying a ton of it.

*shrug* and my numbers are backed by Tolkien's writing in Nature of Middle-earth. You're not saying I'm wrong you're saying that Tolkien's writings are wildly inconsistent with one another.

Also saying "mortal equivalent" is such bullshit,

Take it up with Tolkien not me, it's his phrase.

Elves are considering mature enough to marry at 50 mortal years (Elven age of .5 years old using the numbers). They don't age/act like they need 100 more years to grow into an equivalent stage as humans.

Citation very much needed for that as it is contradictory to pretty much everything in NoM-e.

Not to mention she has already lived through the fall of the trees, the kinslaying, oath of Faenor, journey to middle earth and so much at this point to deny she would have obtained at LEAST SOME WISDOM, but the show displays none of that.

First up it really isn't worth getting this mad about. Secondly it's not a lack of wisdom, it's poor judgement due to grief. And before you try saying that only brats are allowed emotions try to remember that Tolkien's Elves can literally die from being too sad.

This isn't even touching the lack of her being married or a mother at this point.

We don't know what her marital status is as that hasn't been shown.

[Triceron]

We don't know what her marital status is as that hasn't been shown.

We don't know, yet we do know.

[rhorle]

...Tolkien's writings are wildly inconsistent with one another.

I think this is a good thing to remember when discussing the stuff that isn't a full story. There are some things they he kept revising or changing which could lead to the inconsistencies. I remember reading that one of the reasons why he originally wrote The Hobbit was because his kids kept contradicting him on the Oral version of the story at bed time.

Also didn't he want to re-write the lore to make it so Arda was always round from the start but never actually released a revised edition to incorporate that?

[Fight4Fun]

A story, that even 1kkk$ can't buy you talent and skillz

[Dhrizzle]

I think this is a good thing to remember when discussing the stuff that isn't a full story. There are some things they he kept revising or changing which could lead to the inconsistencies. I remember reading that one of the reasons why he originally wrote The Hobbit was because his kids kept contradicting him on the Oral version of the story at bed time.

Also didn't he want to re-write the lore to make it so Arda was always round from the start but never actually released a revised edition to incorporate that?

Yes, also the Sun and Moon were going to have always existed with no Lamps, one version of Galadriel's story has her meeting Celeborn (then Teleporno) in Aman, and he seemed to favour Orcs being bred from Men.