1. #4901
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The animated films pre-date the jackson works. I'm not even sure if you understand what point you are making other to ramble and rant about anything Tolkien. They didn't push a series in order to do a bad job. That is nonsense and you should be able to realize how nonsense that is. It is also strange how you are now blaming the Tolkien estate and that it is impossible to tell a good story with the "left overs" of tolkiens work. It also contradicts the later part of your post where you give an example of how Amazon could have been a competitor game of thrones. Which is it Amazon had no choice but to do the bad show forced on them or they could have had the choice to focus on something else?
    Producing entertainment product has a certain amount of risk. And this is the most expensive television series ever produced. Now if you are arguing that it is SMART to spend that much money on a product that only is seen as average at best by audiences then you are insane and there is no point even trying to discuss any thing further with you because you lack common sense. There is no magic to this. Either you spent all that money and get a return on investment, in the form of a very successful series, or you don't. Whether you like the show or not doesn't change the financial reality at play. And like I said, that also doesn't change the fact that the Tolkien Estate found a way to generate more cash for themselves, because new LOTR moves aren't going to be made any time soon, so they found a loophole to get some cash from a studio buying the rights and producing a multi season television series. Because the only money they get off those movies is as a percentage on the profits. That is just a fact.

    The rights that Tolkien sold were owned by the Saul Zaentz company and those rights have now been sold to the Embracer group. Those rights were not owned by the Tolkien Estate. So the Tolkien Estate, in selling these limited TV rights, directly received the money for the purchase of those rights and any potential profits based on the terms of the contract.... That is totally separate from the rights already purchased from Tolkien long ago. That is the part you are probably missing. So it is ultimately the Tolkien society that pushed this deal in order to produce something that is very risky for any studio willing to take it on. And because they have so much leeway in telling the story there is no reason they couldn't have used these 5 seasons to tell a smaller story in the 2nd age than compressing the time line to tell all those events in a single lifetime. And yes, I still see that as stupid, because not only is that going to produce a potentially very badly convoluted and disjointed story far different from the books, but limits how deep you can actually go on any of these stories.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-15 at 02:24 PM.

  2. #4902
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Now if you are arguing that it is SMART to spend that much money on a product that only is seen as average at best by audiences then you are insane and there is no point even trying to discuss any thing further with you because you lack common sense.
    Can you point out where I said that? Of course it is a fact that Tolkien, Warner Brothers, SZC, Embracer and anyone else who has rights to Tolkien's work are trying to make money. Everyone who has released a lord of the rings product has wanted to make money off of Tolkien's work. This is again proof that you don't know what point you are trying to make as you are inventing things and rambling.
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  3. #4903
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The animated films pre-date the jackson works. I'm not even sure if you understand what point you are making other to ramble and rant about anything Tolkien. They didn't push a series in order to do a bad job. That is nonsense and you should be able to realize how nonsense that is. It is also strange how you are now blaming the Tolkien estate and that it is impossible to tell a good story with the "left overs" of tolkiens work. It also contradicts the later part of your post where you give an example of how Amazon could have been a competitor game of thrones. Which is it Amazon had no choice but to do the bad show forced on them or they could have had the choice to focus on something else?

    - - - Updated - - -



    It does not though. If you are looking for racism then you will find it. It isn't a cultural appropriation. You are just showing how manufactured the outrage is. It is strange how some people criticize the show for having to clean of costumes while it is also a bad thing when costumes are "dirty" as well.
    As someone that moved fromthe island of Ireland only a year or two ago, it’s close enough to how a lot in the country lives. Especially “Irish travellers”. And from the Republic of Ireland.

  4. #4904
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Producing entertainment product has a certain amount of risk. And this is the most expensive television series ever produced. Now if you are arguing that it is SMART to spend that much money on a product that only is seen as average at best by audiences then you are insane and there is no point even trying to discuss any thing further with you because you lack common sense.
    It got them 25 million viewers for the first episode (vs 10 million viewers for the House of the Dragon show). How many of those do you think care about Tolkien and being true to the source? In IMDB, the show has a very decent median score of 8, and if you cut off the top & bottom notes, it is clearly enjoyed by quite a few people. And even if it's not the best thing ever since sliced bread, ultimately it's all about sub drawing power for Amazon, which seems enormous - at the moment they are easily beating HBOs rival fantasy show. So all in all, it doesn't look bad at all for Amazon. So yeah, it can be smart to put a lot of money into an average product if it creates enough publicity to make the money elsewhere.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-09-15 at 02:49 PM.

  5. #4905
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Can you point out where I said that? Of course it is a fact that Tolkien, Warner Brothers, SZC, Embracer and anyone else who has rights to Tolkien's work are trying to make money. Everyone who has released a lord of the rings product has wanted to make money off of Tolkien's work. This is again proof that you don't know what point you are trying to make as you are inventing things and rambling.
    So the point was specifically how THIS series came about and the fact that it starts with the Tolkien Estate itself. It is about THEM making money from whatever rights were left over and not about any other entity who already owns any other rights, which was the Saul Zaence corporation, who hasn't made any films since LOTR and the Hobbit. And now those rights were sold, because it is risky to make new movies with no actual books that audiences are familiar with to go by.

    Anyway, you obviously aren't interested in discussing that so lets just move along.....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    It got them 25 million viewers for the first episode (vs 10 million viewers for the House of the Dragon show). How many of those do you think care about Tolkien and being true to the source? In IMDB, the show has a very decent median score of 8, and if you cut off the top & bottom notes, it is clearly enjoyed by quite a few people. And even if it's not the best thing ever since sliced bread, ultimately it's all about sub drawing power for Amazon, which seems enormous - at the moment they are easily beating HBOs rival fantasy show. So all in all, it doesn't look bad at all for Amazon. So yeah, it can be smart to put a lot of money into an average product if it creates enough publicity to make the money elsewhere.
    I don't know and that really wasn't the point. Do you think spending $1 billion dollars is worth it for 25 million viewers? Amazon only knows the actual facts and the point stands regardless. People sitting here trying to argue that somehow the financials of this series makes sense just to justify its existence is kind of silly. The only way to justify that is to show how Amazon is getting a return on that investment and I would assume that means new subcribers to Amazon prime. I don't know how on earth they are even going to make money on a $1 billion series regardless if it is based on Tolkien or something else. It is financial suicide in my book. And we are only talking about 1 season so far costing upwards of $1 billion dollars.

    At the end of the day this is all about whether any studio can take the notes and sketches and make something around the edges of LOTR and the Hobbit that can guarantee a large profit either in film or television. Because producing either one is going to be expensive and the risk of doing it comes from the lack of complete books with well known characters to fall back on. And no matter what, because of the fame and popularity of Tolkien and his prestige as a writer and author, anything they produce is going to be compared against him and his work.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-15 at 03:07 PM.

  6. #4906
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    So the point was specifically how THIS series came about and the fact that it starts with the Tolkien Estate itself.
    Right. You are yelling at the wind. Your point has nothing to do with what we were originally discussing nor is it something that has been in doubt in the discussion we were having.
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  7. #4907
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    I don't know and that really wasn't the point. Do you think spending $1 billion dollars is worth it for 25 million viewers? Amazon only knows the actual facts and the point stands regardless. People sitting here trying to argue that somehow the financials of this series makes sense just to justify its existence is kind of silly. The only way to justify that is to show how Amazon is getting a return on that investment and I would assume that means new subcribers to Amazon prime. I don't know how on earth they are even going to make money on a $1 billion series regardless if it is based on Tolkien or something else. It is financial suicide in my book. And we are only talking about 1 season so far costing upwards of $1 billion dollars.
    Where are you getting those figures from? I've heard of $57 million per episode, which is considerably less than $1 billion for the whole season. Also, 25 million viewers was for the first 24 hours. Total figure has to be bigger than that (at least 25.000.001, because I didn't watch it in the first 24 hours :P). Obviously some of those people were already subbed, but some - like me - subbed just now for the show (though I will also check out other things while being at it). And because I was offered a very generous yearly sub, I did just that. So make some math and you will see that it's not out of the realm of possibility to at least make even for the show - and make money in the long run if some of the people who subbed just now stay for longer. No other show before this one gave Amazon Prime Video so much publicity, not even close.

  8. #4908
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Do you think spending $1 billion dollars is worth it for 25 million viewers?
    ~

    $1billion is the estimate for the whole series, 5 seasons.

    First season will be the most expensive one though, with the added cost of sets, costumes, and actually building everything. Cost will be reduced (in comparison) in the next seasons.

  9. #4909
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    Saw the third! It´s really a nice show That´s all there is to say, really. Either you like it or you don´t.

    I find the cast to be rather absurd, with the whole diversity thing. It is super fake and inacurate to the lore, but whatever, I can get over that although I still find itto be quite racist... I mean, if they wanted integrity, then why didn´t they add a character of each cultural background? But again, whatever, the show itself is good. That´s all I care about.

  10. #4910
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    It got them 25 million viewers for the first episode (vs 10 million viewers for the House of the Dragon show). How many of those do you think care about Tolkien and being true to the source? In IMDB, the show has a very decent median score of 8, and if you cut off the top & bottom notes, it is clearly enjoyed by quite a few people. And even if it's not the best thing ever since sliced bread, ultimately it's all about sub drawing power for Amazon, which seems enormous - at the moment they are easily beating HBOs rival fantasy show. So all in all, it doesn't look bad at all for Amazon. So yeah, it can be smart to put a lot of money into an average product if it creates enough publicity to make the money elsewhere.
    I mean you do realize that the 25 million "viewers" wasn't just through the amazon prime website, and they used on odd term for it, like clicks or something? The only independent data we have gotten was samba TV which had there numbers not being near as impressive. I won't say the show got no views, but it wasn't the blow out, and the fact amazon hasn't posted any numbers since then makes me think they haven't been hitting the marks they want.

    You have to keep in mind this show is mind staggeringly expensive, it was going to be hard to come out even no matter what, so if it hits good numbers that will still be a good size loss (yes amazon can eat that loss, but for how long will it/Bezos be willing to).

    Also IMDB is owned by amazon, and has been... curating reviews, with scores even as high as 5/10 being removed if it used terms they didn't like. Like I know people love to say review bomb, but it works both ways and every other review site I have seen for the show has it at best around a 5/10 without a lot hovering in the 3-4 range.

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    ~

    $1billion is the estimate for the whole series, 5 seasons.

    First season will be the most expensive one though, with the added cost of sets, costumes, and actually building everything. Cost will be reduced (in comparison) in the next seasons.
    Originally, but pretty sure with the move from New Zealand to England that price is going to go up a bit more now, with the supposedly 2 year delay between seasons costing more. Wouldn't be surprised if inflation + moving + delays pushed the price to 1.1 or even 1.2 billion.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-09-15 at 04:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  11. #4911
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    I mean you do realize that the 25 million "viewers" wasn't just through the amazon prime website, and they used on odd term for it, like clicks or something?
    "25 million global viewers in the first 24 hours. Thank you for making #TheRingsOfPower the most watched series premiere on @PrimeVideo" https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/stat...69493201686528

    Also IMDB was only curating reviews which are different from ratings. There are over 36,000 1 star ratings on IMDB currently. They currently have 1/10 reviews. They were countering "bombing" with reviews and not trying to censor bad ratings and reviews. Amazon recently adopted a similar thing with their prime video reviews where they don't publish any until 3 days after launch in an effort to stop initial bombs.
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  12. #4912
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    How many of those do you think care about Tolkien and being true to the source?
    The true irony being that not even J.R.R. Tolkien would care how accurate it is to what he wrote - it was only his estate that was uptight. Not only was he inconsistent within his own constant revisions that made large swathes of his canon incongruous, but his ultimate goal was to create a mythology. That includes retellings of that mythology, complete with changes, additions, omissions, and embellishments.

  13. #4913
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    I mean you do realize that the 25 million "viewers" wasn't just through the amazon prime website, and they used on odd term for it, like clicks or something? The only independent data we have gotten was samba TV which had there numbers not being near as impressive. I won't say the show got no views, but it wasn't the blow out, and the fact amazon hasn't posted any numbers since then makes me think they haven't been hitting the marks they want.

    You have to keep in mind this show is mind staggeringly expensive, it was going to be hard to come out even no matter what, so if it hits good numbers that will still be a good size loss (yes amazon can eat that loss, but for how long will it/Bezos be willing to).

    Also IMDB is owned by amazon, and has been... curating reviews, with scores even as high as 5/10 being removed if it used terms they didn't like. Like I know people love to say review bomb, but it works both ways and every other review site I have seen for the show has it at best around a 5/10 without a lot hovering in the 3-4 range.
    If we're going to question every number given, because this or that, then what's the point to even talk about it...? The doom and gloom artists will always claim all the positive reports are skewed because conspiracy and other reasons.

  14. #4914
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    If we're going to question every number given, because this or that, then what's the point to even talk about it...? The doom and gloom artists will always claim all the positive reports are skewed because conspiracy and other reasons.
    What? I was only questioning numbers from the people that have a bit of a bias towards numbers (you know amazon, the company making the show and financial would benefit from it being the greatest thing ever) and who have been proven to at least between imdb and reviews on prime shown to be fudging numbers by removing/limiting what reviews go through. I pointed out how the Samba numbers didn't agree with amazons numbers and how for HotD they were much closer to what HBO gave us, thus making me think that Amazon is exaggerating the numbers at least a bit.

    I mean be honest, do you really think this show even if it had 25 million people watch episode 1 in its entirety, is good enough to sustain anything near those numbers? I would wager not even close, I think it will hover at 5 million AT BEST through the season, which yes impressive numbers, but considering you are spending what a reported $60 million an episode is pretty meh.

    Prime costs $15 a month, so with 5 million even IF everyone was a new subscriber it would be making a small profit. The truth is I would wager a fair amount the amount of new subscribers who signed up for prime to watch this show is a minority, meaning the show isn't making money, which once again Amazon can afford, but it needs to be doing something then or why waste the money. As Bezos already said he wanted a Game of Thrones, and this was supposed to be it. Yet it isn't getting anywhere near the love, the following, the praise (early seasons at least) GoT got, and even compared to HotD it is falling short.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-09-15 at 05:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  15. #4915
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    I pointed out how the Samba numbers didn't agree with amazons numbers
    Do you have a link to global viewership from Samba? Because all I can find is that they are using US TV household only and it doesn't included any other devices. Which means that you are misrepresenting their numbers to claim Amazon has lied.
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  16. #4916
    25million viewers doesn't really sound like an outrageous number to me, not sure why people are discrediting it really. I mean, this is one of the most anticipated series on Amazon, I'm not surprised it's getting eyeballs on it.

  17. #4917
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    What? I was only questioning numbers from the people that have a bit of a bias towards numbers (you know amazon, the company making the show and financial would benefit from it being the greatest thing ever) and who have been proven to at least between imdb and reviews on prime shown to be fudging numbers by removing/limiting what reviews go through. I pointed out how the Samba numbers didn't agree with amazons numbers and how for HotD they were much closer to what HBO gave us, thus making me think that Amazon is exaggerating the numbers at least a bit.
    Even if Amazon is exaggerating it - and to what extent, we do not know - you should also remember the number given was for the first 24h airing of a completely new show (albeit with a strong IP). AFAIR "Stranger things" s4 - a very established show with huge fanbase - had about 20% of its views on day 1. It's hard to imagine RoP episode 1 was watched only on day 1, so the number had to grow. To what extent, again, we do not know. But no matter how you want to interpret those numbers, calling them bad would be a huge stretch. I think it's safe to say it had a good release. What matters now is how many viewers it will be able to maintain - and honestly, I have no clue and I'd rather just wait and see. One thing that's certain is that fans of established universes (be it SW, Marvel, LotR or whatever) are the most toxic and entitled bunch, so places like this one here are never a good indication of what the average viewer thinks.

    Jackson's LotR also had a bad press amongst Tolkien fans and it didn't stop the movie from earning quite a bit of bucks.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-09-15 at 05:45 PM.

  18. #4918
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    25million viewers doesn't really sound like an outrageous number to me, not sure why people are discrediting it really. I mean, this is one of the most anticipated series on Amazon, I'm not surprised it's getting eyeballs on it.
    it's a case of "We did an internal investigation and found no fault".

    In the end the numbers don't matter anyway. They showed EP01 numbers for a reason. Because that's the HYPE number, not anything reflective of how good the show it.
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  19. #4919
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    it's a case of "We did an internal investigation and found no fault".

    In the end the numbers don't matter anyway. They showed EP01 numbers for a reason. Because that's the HYPE number, not anything reflective of how good the show it.
    Not sure why anyone would equate numbers to quality of a show though. Is there a reason anyone is making this assumption even?

    Like, Star Wars sequel trilogy movies had huge box office numbers and lots of people watching em, doesn't mean they're good movies.

  20. #4920
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Not sure why anyone would equate numbers to quality of a show though. Is there a reason anyone is making this assumption even?

    Like, Star Wars sequel trilogy movies had huge box office numbers and lots of people watching em, doesn't mean they're good movies.
    I don't think anyone celebrating high numbers do it because of hype. It's part of marketing to making it look good overall. It's not just Amazon, everyone does this.
    Maybe I'm just cynical.
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