Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[InfiniteCharger]

Can you point out where I said that? Of course it is a fact that Tolkien, Warner Brothers, SZC, Embracer and anyone else who has rights to Tolkien's work are trying to make money. Everyone who has released a lord of the rings product has wanted to make money off of Tolkien's work. This is again proof that you don't know what point you are trying to make as you are inventing things and rambling.

So the point was specifically how THIS series came about and the fact that it starts with the Tolkien Estate itself. It is about THEM making money from whatever rights were left over and not about any other entity who already owns any other rights, which was the Saul Zaence corporation, who hasn't made any films since LOTR and the Hobbit. And now those rights were sold, because it is risky to make new movies with no actual books that audiences are familiar with to go by.

Anyway, you obviously aren't interested in discussing that so lets just move along.....

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It got them 25 million viewers for the first episode (vs 10 million viewers for the House of the Dragon show). How many of those do you think care about Tolkien and being true to the source? In IMDB, the show has a very decent median score of 8, and if you cut off the top & bottom notes, it is clearly enjoyed by quite a few people. And even if it's not the best thing ever since sliced bread, ultimately it's all about sub drawing power for Amazon, which seems enormous - at the moment they are easily beating HBOs rival fantasy show. So all in all, it doesn't look bad at all for Amazon. So yeah, it can be smart to put a lot of money into an average product if it creates enough publicity to make the money elsewhere.

I don't know and that really wasn't the point. Do you think spending $1 billion dollars is worth it for 25 million viewers? Amazon only knows the actual facts and the point stands regardless. People sitting here trying to argue that somehow the financials of this series makes sense just to justify its existence is kind of silly. The only way to justify that is to show how Amazon is getting a return on that investment and I would assume that means new subcribers to Amazon prime. I don't know how on earth they are even going to make money on a $1 billion series regardless if it is based on Tolkien or something else. It is financial suicide in my book. And we are only talking about 1 season so far costing upwards of $1 billion dollars.

At the end of the day this is all about whether any studio can take the notes and sketches and make something around the edges of LOTR and the Hobbit that can guarantee a large profit either in film or television. Because producing either one is going to be expensive and the risk of doing it comes from the lack of complete books with well known characters to fall back on. And no matter what, because of the fame and popularity of Tolkien and his prestige as a writer and author, anything they produce is going to be compared against him and his work.

[rhorle]

So the point was specifically how THIS series came about and the fact that it starts with the Tolkien Estate itself.

Right. You are yelling at the wind. Your point has nothing to do with what we were originally discussing nor is it something that has been in doubt in the discussion we were having.

[Rageonit]

I don't know and that really wasn't the point. Do you think spending $1 billion dollars is worth it for 25 million viewers? Amazon only knows the actual facts and the point stands regardless. People sitting here trying to argue that somehow the financials of this series makes sense just to justify its existence is kind of silly. The only way to justify that is to show how Amazon is getting a return on that investment and I would assume that means new subcribers to Amazon prime. I don't know how on earth they are even going to make money on a $1 billion series regardless if it is based on Tolkien or something else. It is financial suicide in my book. And we are only talking about 1 season so far costing upwards of $1 billion dollars.

Where are you getting those figures from? I've heard of $57 million per episode, which is considerably less than $1 billion for the whole season. Also, 25 million viewers was for the first 24 hours. Total figure has to be bigger than that (at least 25.000.001, because I didn't watch it in the first 24 hours :P). Obviously some of those people were already subbed, but some - like me - subbed just now for the show (though I will also check out other things while being at it). And because I was offered a very generous yearly sub, I did just that. So make some math and you will see that it's not out of the realm of possibility to at least make even for the show - and make money in the long run if some of the people who subbed just now stay for longer. No other show before this one gave Amazon Prime Video so much publicity, not even close.

[hulkgor]

Do you think spending $1 billion dollars is worth it for 25 million viewers?

~

$1billion is the estimate for the whole series, 5 seasons.

First season will be the most expensive one though, with the added cost of sets, costumes, and actually building everything. Cost will be reduced (in comparison) in the next seasons.

[shise]

Saw the third! It´s really a nice show That´s all there is to say, really. Either you like it or you don´t.

I find the cast to be rather absurd, with the whole diversity thing. It is super fake and inacurate to the lore, but whatever, I can get over that although I still find itto be quite racist... I mean, if they wanted integrity, then why didn´t they add a character of each cultural background? But again, whatever, the show itself is good. That´s all I care about.

[bledgor]

It got them 25 million viewers for the first episode (vs 10 million viewers for the House of the Dragon show). How many of those do you think care about Tolkien and being true to the source? In IMDB, the show has a very decent median score of 8, and if you cut off the top & bottom notes, it is clearly enjoyed by quite a few people. And even if it's not the best thing ever since sliced bread, ultimately it's all about sub drawing power for Amazon, which seems enormous - at the moment they are easily beating HBOs rival fantasy show. So all in all, it doesn't look bad at all for Amazon. So yeah, it can be smart to put a lot of money into an average product if it creates enough publicity to make the money elsewhere.

I mean you do realize that the 25 million "viewers" wasn't just through the amazon prime website, and they used on odd term for it, like clicks or something? The only independent data we have gotten was samba TV which had there numbers not being near as impressive. I won't say the show got no views, but it wasn't the blow out, and the fact amazon hasn't posted any numbers since then makes me think they haven't been hitting the marks they want.

You have to keep in mind this show is mind staggeringly expensive, it was going to be hard to come out even no matter what, so if it hits good numbers that will still be a good size loss (yes amazon can eat that loss, but for how long will it/Bezos be willing to).

Also IMDB is owned by amazon, and has been... curating reviews, with scores even as high as 5/10 being removed if it used terms they didn't like. Like I know people love to say review bomb, but it works both ways and every other review site I have seen for the show has it at best around a 5/10 without a lot hovering in the 3-4 range.

~

$1billion is the estimate for the whole series, 5 seasons.

First season will be the most expensive one though, with the added cost of sets, costumes, and actually building everything. Cost will be reduced (in comparison) in the next seasons.

Originally, but pretty sure with the move from New Zealand to England that price is going to go up a bit more now, with the supposedly 2 year delay between seasons costing more. Wouldn't be surprised if inflation + moving + delays pushed the price to 1.1 or even 1.2 billion.

[rhorle]

I mean you do realize that the 25 million "viewers" wasn't just through the amazon prime website, and they used on odd term for it, like clicks or something?

"25 million global viewers in the first 24 hours. Thank you for making #TheRingsOfPower the most watched series premiere on @PrimeVideo" https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/stat...69493201686528

Also IMDB was only curating reviews which are different from ratings. There are over 36,000 1 star ratings on IMDB currently. They currently have 1/10 reviews. They were countering "bombing" with reviews and not trying to censor bad ratings and reviews. Amazon recently adopted a similar thing with their prime video reviews where they don't publish any until 3 days after launch in an effort to stop initial bombs.

[Berkilak]

How many of those do you think care about Tolkien and being true to the source?

The true irony being that not even J.R.R. Tolkien would care how accurate it is to what he wrote - it was only his estate that was uptight. Not only was he inconsistent within his own constant revisions that made large swathes of his canon incongruous, but his ultimate goal was to create a mythology. That includes retellings of that mythology, complete with changes, additions, omissions, and embellishments.

[Rageonit]

I mean you do realize that the 25 million "viewers" wasn't just through the amazon prime website, and they used on odd term for it, like clicks or something? The only independent data we have gotten was samba TV which had there numbers not being near as impressive. I won't say the show got no views, but it wasn't the blow out, and the fact amazon hasn't posted any numbers since then makes me think they haven't been hitting the marks they want.

You have to keep in mind this show is mind staggeringly expensive, it was going to be hard to come out even no matter what, so if it hits good numbers that will still be a good size loss (yes amazon can eat that loss, but for how long will it/Bezos be willing to).

Also IMDB is owned by amazon, and has been... curating reviews, with scores even as high as 5/10 being removed if it used terms they didn't like. Like I know people love to say review bomb, but it works both ways and every other review site I have seen for the show has it at best around a 5/10 without a lot hovering in the 3-4 range.

If we're going to question every number given, because this or that, then what's the point to even talk about it...? The doom and gloom artists will always claim all the positive reports are skewed because conspiracy and other reasons.

[bledgor]

If we're going to question every number given, because this or that, then what's the point to even talk about it...? The doom and gloom artists will always claim all the positive reports are skewed because conspiracy and other reasons.

What? I was only questioning numbers from the people that have a bit of a bias towards numbers (you know amazon, the company making the show and financial would benefit from it being the greatest thing ever) and who have been proven to at least between imdb and reviews on prime shown to be fudging numbers by removing/limiting what reviews go through. I pointed out how the Samba numbers didn't agree with amazons numbers and how for HotD they were much closer to what HBO gave us, thus making me think that Amazon is exaggerating the numbers at least a bit.

I mean be honest, do you really think this show even if it had 25 million people watch episode 1 in its entirety, is good enough to sustain anything near those numbers? I would wager not even close, I think it will hover at 5 million AT BEST through the season, which yes impressive numbers, but considering you are spending what a reported $60 million an episode is pretty meh.

Prime costs $15 a month, so with 5 million even IF everyone was a new subscriber it would be making a small profit. The truth is I would wager a fair amount the amount of new subscribers who signed up for prime to watch this show is a minority, meaning the show isn't making money, which once again Amazon can afford, but it needs to be doing something then or why waste the money. As Bezos already said he wanted a Game of Thrones, and this was supposed to be it. Yet it isn't getting anywhere near the love, the following, the praise (early seasons at least) GoT got, and even compared to HotD it is falling short.

[rhorle]

I pointed out how the Samba numbers didn't agree with amazons numbers

Do you have a link to global viewership from Samba? Because all I can find is that they are using US TV household only and it doesn't included any other devices. Which means that you are misrepresenting their numbers to claim Amazon has lied.

[Triceron]

25million viewers doesn't really sound like an outrageous number to me, not sure why people are discrediting it really. I mean, this is one of the most anticipated series on Amazon, I'm not surprised it's getting eyeballs on it.

[Rageonit]

What? I was only questioning numbers from the people that have a bit of a bias towards numbers (you know amazon, the company making the show and financial would benefit from it being the greatest thing ever) and who have been proven to at least between imdb and reviews on prime shown to be fudging numbers by removing/limiting what reviews go through. I pointed out how the Samba numbers didn't agree with amazons numbers and how for HotD they were much closer to what HBO gave us, thus making me think that Amazon is exaggerating the numbers at least a bit.

Even if Amazon is exaggerating it - and to what extent, we do not know - you should also remember the number given was for the first 24h airing of a completely new show (albeit with a strong IP). AFAIR "Stranger things" s4 - a very established show with huge fanbase - had about 20% of its views on day 1. It's hard to imagine RoP episode 1 was watched only on day 1, so the number had to grow. To what extent, again, we do not know. But no matter how you want to interpret those numbers, calling them bad would be a huge stretch. I think it's safe to say it had a good release. What matters now is how many viewers it will be able to maintain - and honestly, I have no clue and I'd rather just wait and see. One thing that's certain is that fans of established universes (be it SW, Marvel, LotR or whatever) are the most toxic and entitled bunch, so places like this one here are never a good indication of what the average viewer thinks.

Jackson's LotR also had a bad press amongst Tolkien fans and it didn't stop the movie from earning quite a bit of bucks.

[Kumorii]

25million viewers doesn't really sound like an outrageous number to me, not sure why people are discrediting it really. I mean, this is one of the most anticipated series on Amazon, I'm not surprised it's getting eyeballs on it.

it's a case of "We did an internal investigation and found no fault".

In the end the numbers don't matter anyway. They showed EP01 numbers for a reason. Because that's the HYPE number, not anything reflective of how good the show it.

[Triceron]

it's a case of "We did an internal investigation and found no fault".

In the end the numbers don't matter anyway. They showed EP01 numbers for a reason. Because that's the HYPE number, not anything reflective of how good the show it.

Not sure why anyone would equate numbers to quality of a show though. Is there a reason anyone is making this assumption even?

Like, Star Wars sequel trilogy movies had huge box office numbers and lots of people watching em, doesn't mean they're good movies.

[Kumorii]

Not sure why anyone would equate numbers to quality of a show though. Is there a reason anyone is making this assumption even?

Like, Star Wars sequel trilogy movies had huge box office numbers and lots of people watching em, doesn't mean they're good movies.

I don't think anyone celebrating high numbers do it because of hype. It's part of marketing to making it look good overall. It's not just Amazon, everyone does this.
Maybe I'm just cynical.

[Triceron]

I don't think anyone celebrating high numbers do it because of hype. It's part of marketing to making it look good overall. It's not just Amazon, everyone does this.
Maybe I'm just cynical.

The only one celebrating it is Amazon, and frankly like you said it's marketting.

I'm not sure why anyone is really making a big deal out of it since it's no different than say Blizzard outing huge Shadowlands day 1 sales, even though we all know those numbers will eventually drop and that it's just a huge spike of people being interested in something new.

Whether the show gains or loses viewership... who really cares. It doesn't really affect anything.

[Kumorii]

The only one celebrating it is Amazon, and frankly like you said it's marketting.

I'm not sure why anyone is really making a big deal out of it since it's no different than say Blizzard outing huge Shadowlands day 1 sales, even though we all know those numbers will eventually drop and that it's just a huge spike of people being interested in something new.

Whether the show gains or loses viewership... who really cares. It doesn't really affect anything.

I'm with you there.

[Rageonit]

Whether the show gains or loses viewership... who really cares. It doesn't really affect anything.

True. In the grand scheme of things, nothing really matters, because we're all going to die, so what's the difference, really?

[bledgor]

Even if Amazon is exaggerating it - and to what extent, we do not know - you should also remember the number given was for the first 24h airing of a completely new show (albeit with a strong IP). AFAIR "Stranger things" s4 - a very established show with huge fanbase - had about 20% of its views on day 1. It's hard to imagine RoP episode 1 was watched only on day 1, so the number had to grow. To what extent, again, we do not know. But no matter how you want to interpret those numbers, calling them bad would be a huge stretch. I think it's safe to say it had a good release. What matters now is how many viewers it will be able to maintain - and honestly, I have no clue and I'd rather just wait and see. One thing that's certain is that fans of established universes (be it SW, Marvel, LotR or whatever) are the most toxic and entitled bunch, so places like this one here are never a good indication of what the average viewer thinks.

Jackson's LotR also had a bad press amongst Tolkien fans and it didn't stop the movie from earning quite a bit of bucks.

Like I said, Samba numbers https://www.mediaplaynews.com/samba-...kenobi-debuts/ make me question it. Yes Stranger things season 4 might have had less numbers in 24 hours, but that show had great praise from all corners, and a lovable cast. Rings of Power has met at best contrasting reviews/praise, and even the most ardent supports have to admit Galadriel is not an endearing primary character.

Not to mention this is TOLKIEN, the most renowned fantasy author of all time, and Rings of Power also had the huge support of LoTR movie goers to watch, it isn't like this show had no help coming in, it probably had the highest possible starting point you could get for a show (HotD COULD have equaled it if later seasons of GoT were actually good, but that is a tangent).

Could the show have grown? Yes, but the only numbers we are getting suggest a 20% drop off from episode 1 to 2 already (Samba numbers again), which is striking considering viewers didn't even have to wait a week to watch it, heck with prime video you don't even need to click a button to watch it, that means people had to actively click a button to not continue it. With a mixed word of mouth I don't see it growing, only shrinking into its regular fan base, which size will depend on the quality of the show, and with insufferable Galadriel as your lead I don't see that being amazing.

Again this show might be a solid show compared to other original fantasy shows, but that to me is a huge failure, we are talking a Tolkien based show that has the fame of the Jackson trilogy to boost it, with a billion dollar budget. This show should have been GoT season 1-4 minimum, ESPECIALLY since prime offers other benefits/has more subscribers than HBO.

That is the issue to me. As a Tolkien fan, I find it insulting to the lore. As a fantasy fan, the show is okay, but has some large flaws. When you consider the potential the show had, I am left feeling very disappointed and annoyed, this show should have been a knock out of the park but somehow the producers found a way to flub it pretty hard.