1. #4941
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Sigh. Indicate where Tolkien created internal rules to cover this? As I said in a earlier response Tolkien never went in-depth into the capabilities of elves. Based on the real world it is possible for a submerged unconscious person to not have water in their lungs once brought back up to the surface. Saying it is fiction does mean that an elf could suddenly fly because those internal rules you brought up are created by the author.

    The amusing part is the mother of Elrond did develop the ability to fly so she could visit his father. It was of course in the form of shape shifting into a bird but it is still an example of Tolkien "breaking internal rules" to fit the narrative he wanted to tell. An elf couldn't fly so he made a reason that allowed her to.
    I'm not talking about Tolkien's rules, I am talking about the SHOWS internal rules for its intended fiction.

    Galadriel being depicted as drowning isn't sourced from Tolkien's work, it's a liberty taken by the show creators for the show.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 06:23 PM.

  2. #4942
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Sure I can agree that Tolkien didn’t like the idea of a multiverse but even when he was alive he started building the path for one when he okayed a movie even though he later wrote that whole letter about it and it never came about in his life time.

    As to the modern day though the multiverse ship sailed in the 80’s and it’s only gotten further out to sea with every new adaption, the chances of it coming back to port is non existent.
    The point was it wasn't what he wanted, but he is now dead. Doesn't change that it is not what he wanted.

  3. #4943
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It still needs to establish and stick to internal rules otherwise it breaks its own suspension of disbelief.

    Just saying it's fiction doesn't mean they could have an Elf suddenly fly and pretend that it's a completely normal thing in the universe because 'it's meant to fiction and Elves aren't real'. There are still rules and boundaries at play. It's more a matter of how they choose to establish them, and how far they push it before it gets too unbelievable.
    What are the established rules for how Elves respond to being submerged in water while unconscious?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Don't give them any ideals now, or we will have flying Galadriel who shots fireballs out of her eyes and bolts of lightning from her arse before we know it. Least then she would be closer in height at 7 feet tall.
    That might please the people crying that Galadriel shouldn't carry a sword because she should be a mage slinging spells from the back.

  4. #4944
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Just saying it's fiction doesn't mean they could have an Elf suddenly fly and pretend that it's a completely normal thing in the universe because 'it's meant to fiction and Elves aren't real'. There are still rules and boundaries at play. It's more a matter of how they choose to establish them, and how far they push it before it gets too unbelievable.
    Didn’t some one once fly a boat to kill a huge dragon? No idea the explanation behind it but it wouldn’t be completely out of left field if it could be done on people some way.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #4945
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It doesn't really matter what he envisioned for LOTR, we have to accept that this is a brand that has been in the hands of many different creatives and there is no one key visionary holding it together. Any visual medium will merely be an adaptation of the works, and never going to be a canonical continuation.

    Same can be said of Star Wars and its relations to George Lucas. Lucas never intended there to be branching 'timelines', but that's pretty much what happened with the novels and games taking the story well past what he originally made for the films. And they had to archive that all as a part of the 'Legends' brand just to try and recontextualize canon. And even then, the current canon is quite fucked up by the Sequel trilogy and all its associated products. The only good thing is that there are certain creatives like Filoni who are keen on keeping certain things canonical, and bridge explanations between things that might have strayed too far from the source.

    We don't really have a multimedia visionary for Tolkien's work, considering most Tolkien experts are the likes of historians and curators who would not seek to expand on the material at all. And frankly, Peter Jackson happens to be one of the only creatives people trust, but some of that good faith also got squandered with the Hobbit films so it's hard to say. Would Peter Jackson's Rings of Power been that much more better than what we have now? I think it's just the Hobbit all over again since we're dealing with adding new material to 'fill in the gaps', and arguably that was some of the worst part of the Hobbit films.
    If these kinds of stories are no longer following Tolkien then it begs the question of why even call it Tolkien at that point? You are only simply watering down the brand because the brand is Tolkien and his work and his attention to detail and excellence in writing. Without that there is nothing. Do you think ROP will be remembered as an excellent piece of fantasy that should be admired years down the road in its own right? It only leads to a path of diminishing returns as people realize that the Tolkien estate no longer cares about its IP and is allowing people to do almost whatever the want with less than stellar results.

  6. #4946
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What are the established rules for how Elves respond to being submerged in water while unconscious?
    They established that she would have drowned if she were not saved. That is what the show establishes by showing her struggle and gasp for air as she reaches the surface. These are the same basic rules of 'biology' that humans exhibit if one were to be put in a similar situation.

    And was she truly unconscious underwater? That's debatable, since all we see is her in a 'daze', and we don't really know if she was knocked out. She seemed fine as soon as she made it to the surface, and not carried onto the raft as though she would have been completely water logged if she were completely out.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 06:36 PM.

  7. #4947
    I have to say that it's a testimony to how determined people are to hate this show regardless that we're getting wikipedia links to attack the "unconscious person rescued from drowning" trope.

  8. #4948
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm not talking about Tolkien's rules, I am talking about the SHOWS internal rules for its intended fiction.
    It doesn't contradict the internal rules of the show so either way you are still wrong lol.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  9. #4949
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Didn’t some one once fly a boat to kill a huge dragon? No idea the explanation behind it but it wouldn’t be completely out of left field if it could be done on people some way.
    It was Elrond's dad Earandil, he returned to the Valar with a Silmaril and sparked the War of Wrath. He was given a boat and set to fly across the sky with the Silmaril on his brow, effectively becoming the Morning/Evening star. Later he assaulted Morgoth's greatest dragon with a flock of birds.

    IIRC his wife could turn into a big white bird and flew to meet him as he passed her tower. Incidentally if you trace the path of the Stranger's meteor and track it all the way back he may have passed close to her tower

  10. #4950
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Didn’t some one once fly a boat to kill a huge dragon? No idea the explanation behind it but it wouldn’t be completely out of left field if it could be done on people some way.
    It depends on the context.

    I'm talking about Peter Pan style flying and how it'd break suspension of disbelief. Like if they suddenly show an Elf not only being able to jump far, but literally change directions in the air. That would break all sorts of rules that have been established so far with what we understand of their physiology.

    I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about and the context of it as it pertains to Tolkien's own writings. If we're talking about flying ships and whatnot, then that may be implied to be magical/technological, and we know that magical enchantments do exist in the world such as rings that grant one invisibility. It doesn't mean flight or invisibility are a natural part of a being's physiology.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 06:43 PM.

  11. #4951
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It depends on the context.

    I'm talking about Peter Pan style flying and how it'd break suspension of disbelief. Like if they suddenly show an Elf not only being able to jump far, but literally change directions in the air. That would break all sorts of rules that have been established so far with what we understand of their physiology.

    I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about and the context of it as it pertains to Tolkien's own writings. If we're talking about flying ships and whatnot, then that may be implied to be magical/technological, and we know that magical enchantments do exist in the world such as rings that grant one invisibility. It doesn't mean flight or invisibility are a natural part of a being's physiology.
    Just face it, some posters here will do anything to tear down Tolkien and prop up this garbage show. Makes you wonder if there pockets are being greased by how ardent they attack any slight against the show, even shit as stupid as an Elf trying to swim the equivalent of the Atlantic Ocean.
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  12. #4952
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It doesn't contradict the internal rules of the show so either way you are still wrong lol.
    I didn't say it contradicted the internal rules of the show, so not sure why you would say I'm wrong.

    I'm merely contending your point that 'it's fiction so they can do anything they want' by explaining that the show still has internal rules to follow for the sake of suspension of disbelief.

    You're the one trying to imply that Elf physiology doesn't work anything like Human biology, despite the fact the show depicts them having similar traits to humans such as being prone to drowning, or gasping for air when they reach to the surface as a human would. These are basic rules that the show actually do establish.

    Otherwise, the whole scene would lack any tension if you're merely implying that Galadriel was in no mortal danger in that situation because 'she's an Elf and her biology doesn't work like a Humans'. Well, we know that's not true because the show was intentionally establishing that the scene was dangerous, that Galadriel was in mortal danger, and that she would have drowned 'like any human would' in that situation if she had not been saved. That was the purpose of the scene.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 07:05 PM.

  13. #4953
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm merely contending your point that 'it's fiction so they can do anything they want' by explaining that the show still has internal rules to follow for the sake of suspension of disbelief.
    How did the work of fiction get those internal rules if they did not create them to allow whatever to be possible? Lmao.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  14. #4954
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I have to say that it's a testimony to how determined people are to hate this show regardless that we're getting wikipedia links to attack the "unconscious person rescued from drowning" trope.
    Think it's the other way around... one made a comment about how being unconscious underwater would make her instantly drown in an off-shoot remark and the defenders came in wiki links and arguments that we don't know how elfs breathing work underwater.

    It's a ridiculous thing to argue about, I agree... but here we are.
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  15. #4955
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Think it's the other way around... one made a comment about how being unconscious underwater would make her instantly drown in an off-shoot remark and the defenders came in wiki links and arguments that we don't know how elfs breathing work underwater.

    It's a ridiculous thing to argue about, I agree... but here we are.
    Ah that's right, it started with disbelief someone could be dragged down by a piece of wood and really snowballed from there.

    I'm just glad there are some more heavily moderated places on the internet where people are discussing the actual show, like who Halbrand and the Stranger might be.

  16. #4956
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It was Elrond's dad Earandil, he returned to the Valar with a Silmaril and sparked the War of Wrath. He was given a boat and set to fly across the sky with the Silmaril on his brow, effectively becoming the Morning/Evening star. Later he assaulted Morgoth's greatest dragon with a flock of birds.

    IIRC his wife could turn into a big white bird and flew to meet him as he passed her tower. Incidentally if you trace the path of the Stranger's meteor and track it all the way back he may have passed close to her tower
    Man if his wife could turn into a bird and he was fighting with a flock of birds it makes me wonder if Elrond has a bunch of feathered siblings he wasn’t invited to hang out with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    , then that may be implied to be magical/technological, and we know that magical enchantments do exist in the world such as rings that grant one invisibility. It doesn't mean flight or invisibility are a natural part of a being's physiology.
    Well ya not part of there physiology but flight could still be possible in theory if enchantments could be placed directly on living things, no idea if that’s the case though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Just face it, some posters here will do anything to tear down Tolkien and prop up this garbage show. Makes you wonder if there pockets are being greased by how ardent they attack any slight against the show, even shit as stupid as an Elf trying to swim the equivalent of the Atlantic Ocean.
    “People talk about Tolkiens work in any way”

    “bledgor, STOP TEARING DOWN TOLKIEN”

    Like I know your upset people keep bringing up Tolkiens actual work and it doesn’t agree with you but that doesn’t mean every time some one mentions any thing from outside the show they are attacking the man.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-09-14 at 07:06 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #4957
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How did the work of fiction get those internal rules if they did not create them to allow whatever to be possible? Lmao.
    The show is literally establishing it IN THAT MOMENT.

    You're implying that they could do anything while my point is they aren't just doing 'whatever is possible' because of what we see in that very scene.

    Like if someone said "The show could have had Galadriel kill the Snow Troll with a fireball" it would be outside of the rules that the show has established, since we never know Galadriel being capable of throwing fireballs. If the show did show her doing so, then we know that Galadriel is capable of that kind of magic, and could expect her to use it in the future. These are rules to the world being established, understand?

    Just because Fireballs are fictional doesn't mean we can start talking about Galadriel throwing fireballs as a means of implied outcomes to the show. The show has to establish that before we talk about it. Galadriel isn't the Meteor Man, she isn't Gandalf. Just because it's fiction doesn't mean there are no rules.

    If Elves are supposed to be resistant to drowning, then the show should establish that somehow. And as I'm pointing out, the show implies they drown the same way a human would, meaning there's no reason (based on what the show establishes) to assume some other 'fictional' outcome where they wouldn't.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 07:20 PM.

  18. #4958
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The show is literally establishing it IN THAT MOMENT.
    How many works of fiction release a primer of their internal rules before hand? We always find out internal rules the moment they first appear in a work of fiction. Your own example indicates you don't understand the internal rules of a work of fiction. If the show had Galadriel use a fireball it wouldn't have violated any of its own rules at that point in the show. Because it never established that it was something she, or other elves, couldn't do.

    You are also indicating you are trying to use Tolkien "internal rules" while you previously stated you were talking only about those of the show. We know that Galadriel, Gandalf, and others can't do X in Tolkien's work because of the rules Tolkien established. The show hasn't yet finished airing so there is no way to know what all of the internal rules are.

    A work of fiction makes things up as it goes. If it changes what the consumers know about the internal rules then it changes it. The author of that fiction can explain it with an in-lore explanation or just leave it as a contradiction. Rings of Power has yet to violate any of their own internal rules and thus haven't had to explain or contradict anything so far.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-14 at 07:26 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #4959
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How many works of fiction release primer of their internal rules before hand? We always find out internal rules the moment they first appear in a work of fiction. Your own example indicates you don't understand the internal rules of a work of fiction. If the show had Galadriel use a fireball it wouldn't have violated any of its own rules at that point in the show. Because it never established that it was something she, or other elves, couldn't do.

    You are also indicating you are trying to use Tolkien "internal rules" while you previously stated you were talking only about those of the show. We know that Galadriel, Gandalf, and others can't do X in Tolkien's work because of the rules Tolkien established. The show hasn't yet finished airing so there is no way to know what all of the internal rules are.

    It again shows that you argue just to be contrary with out understanding that a work of fiction makes things up as it goes. If it changes what the consumers know about the internal rules then it changes it. The author of that fiction can explain it with an in-lore explanation or just leave it as a contradiction.
    It's not contrary at all. It's directly addressing your literal answer to applying 'realism' to a work of fiction. I'm literally outlining that 'realism' is being established by the show itself, by depicting their characters a certain way.

    If we have a scene where Galadriel is show to be drowning and implied that she would drown if not for help, then that is the rules being established right then and there for what a 'realism' is for an Elf being dragged underwater. If there are any alternative to the situation, then it needs to be established by the show.

    I'm not making any comment that this particular scene is contradictory, I'm making a point that your comment on 'realism doesn't apply' isn't some universal standard, because realism is being set by the show. If they have some future scene of them in the water again and Galadriel survives underwater completely fine in another 'drowning' situation, then it would be contradictory to what's established earlier, and would break suspense of disbelief. There definitely are rules to fiction, and it's not just a matter of 'well it's fine because it's fiction'.

    The show has been establishing that Elves are not all that physiologically different from Humans. Elves are merely more long-lived and implied to have better physical attributes from the common Human, otherwise they still bleed and die when their throats get cut or drown when deprived from oxygen for too long. It's not like they'd suddenly be compared to Meteor Man, who we know very little about right now and is being established as being neither Human or Elf or any race we know about so far.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 07:50 PM.

  20. #4960
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Well ya not part of there physiology but flight could still be possible in theory if enchantments could be placed directly on living things, no idea if that’s the case though.
    Tolkien wasn't above pulling our the Valar as literal deus-ex-machinas. Take Elwing (the bird lady/Elrond's mum mentioned above) and the reason she could turn into a bird. Towards the end of the First Age she was in possession of a Silmaril and being pursued by Fëanoreans. She decided instead of letting them get the gem she would hurl herself into the sea, killing herself and losing it forever. At the last moment Ulmo decided "lol, nope" and turned her into a massive bird. No precedent for it, no little breadcrumbs establishing that she had an affinity for bird form, just the fact Tolkien was very much of the "it's magic, I don't have to explain shit" school (although there is probably an exceedingly detailed description of the mechanics and reasons behind it buried somewhere in a letter to a random fan in Norwich.)

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