Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

If we have a scene where Galadriel is show to be drowning and implied that she would drown if not for help, then that is the rules being established right then and there for what a 'realism' is for an Elf being dragged underwater. If there are any alternative to the situation, then it needs to be established by the show.

Which contradicts nothing I've said. As nothing has been established that an elves lungs will automatically fill with water. Realism doesn't apply because it is a work of fiction. You keep trying to argue that we have to use real world "internal rules" for a work of fiction. That ignores how the author of that fiction creates any rules that they feel like and it not explicitly stated it is an unknown. It doesn't automatically become "real life rules". We can use "real life" to infer how something might work but that doesn't mean it is automatically the case if the author of the fiction does not give an explanation.

In the case of the show the writers established that lungs don't automatically fill with water. It didn't have to do so before hand because it did so during that scene. It is fiction and everything is created including those internal rules. So an author can create or change those rules any time the feel like it.

[VMSmith]

A work of fiction makes things up as it goes. If it changes what the consumers know about the internal rules then it changes it.

This is what poor writing does and it doesn't tend to hold up very well. If a story is not internally consistent then readers/viewers end up rejecting it because they become painfully aware that they are interacting with a story that's not real. It's the difference between Breaking Bad and a typical CW superhero show, which change the rules as they go along.

[Dhrizzle]

This is what poor writing does and it doesn't tend to hold up very well. If a story is not internally consistent then readers/viewers end up rejecting it because they become painfully aware that they are interacting with a story that's not real. It's the difference between Breaking Bad and a typical CW superhero show, which change the rules as they go along.

So what is the inconsistency here? If Elves had been shown drowning instantly when unconscious then sure they were changing the rules but I don't recall any examples of that happening.

[rhorle]

This is what poor writing does and it doesn't tend to hold up very well.

I'm curious if you think Tolkien's works are examples of poor writing? As he was constantly revising things including wanting to change the planet to always being not-flat after the fact. New rules can be made up on the spot with or without reasoning. Up could become down if the writer wants to and it does not become bad writing just because they did so.

Breaking bad is not a good example because it has "continuity errors". Does that mean in its fictional universe a popsicle can magically reappear after being eaten? No but in theory it could because that is how it was shown on the show. We know these to be "errors" because we are told they are. That doesn't mean they actually have to be and there could have been a in-show rationale that we haven't yet encountered.

Did tolkien tell us that Gandalf would survive his encounter with the Baelrog before hand? Was the Jackson movies bad because we didn't know that prior to in the film? Didn't it just "up and change" the meaning of death to those who were experiencing the story for the first time with the movies?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Tolkien wasn't above pulling our the Valar as literal deus-ex-machinas. Take Elwing (the bird lady/Elrond's mum mentioned above) and the reason she could turn into a bird. Towards the end of the First Age she was in possession of a Silmaril and being pursued by Fëanoreans. She decided instead of letting them get the gem she would hurl herself into the sea, killing herself and losing it forever. At the last moment Ulmo decided "lol, nope" and turned her into a massive bird. No precedent for it, no little breadcrumbs establishing that she had an affinity for bird form, just the fact Tolkien was very much of the "it's magic, I don't have to explain shit" school (although there is probably an exceedingly detailed description of the mechanics and reasons behind it buried somewhere in a letter to a random fan in Norwich.)

Huh, so all of the blusters about Glad not even being able to swim to shore or drowning ect is just kinda pointless isn’t it?

Like by Tolkien own rules people can just turn into birds out of no where when the gods/Demi gods want them to so being able to actually make it to land or not take on water isn’t even that far fetched if the demi gods want her to compared to turning into animals.

[Triceron]

Which contradicts nothing I've said. As nothing has been established that an elves lungs will automatically fill with water. Realism doesn't apply because it is a work of fiction. You keep trying to argue that we have to use real world "internal rules" for a work of fiction. That ignores how the author of that fiction creates any rules that they feel like and it not explicitly stated it is an unknown. It doesn't automatically become "real life rules". We can use "real life" to infer how something might work but that doesn't mean it is automatically the case if the author of the fiction does not give an explanation.

It doesn't have to be Real World rules, but if the fiction establishes it as being similar or the same as the real world, then that is what it is. And such is true of Elves dying from blood loss. These are real world rules because the show has chosen to portray Elves dying in this way. That is how the 'author' has chosen to depict Elf mortality.

In the case of the show the writers established that lungs don't automatically fill with water. It didn't have to do so before hand because it did so during that scene. It is fiction and everything is created including those internal rules. So an author can create or change those rules any time the feel like it.

Yes, you're absolutely right here and I am not disagreeing with this point. I'm just making a clarification that you can't just point at Meteor man existing and say 'Well remember this is all a work of fiction' to handwave any rules being established by the show. The Elves aren't being depicted the same way as the Meteor Man.

[Dhrizzle]

Huh, so all of the blusters about Glad not even being able to swim to shore or drowning ect is just kinda pointless isn’t it?

Like by Tolkien own rules people can just turn into birds out of no where when the gods/Demi gods want them to so being able to actually make it to land or not take on water isn’t even that far fetched if the demo gods want her to compared to turning into animals.

When talking to Halbrand or Isildur (I forget which, long-brown-haired bearded white guys all look alike to me) Galadriel outright says their meeting was the result of one of the powers of the world.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

When talking to Halbrand or Isildur (I forget which, long-brown-haired bearded white guys all look alike to me) Galadriel outright says their meeting was the result of one of the powers of the world.

Not knowing that the sea could/would turn people into birds I figured her and Númenorian’s saying that and “the sea is always right” was just some generic fate stuff but it sounds more likely now that they are just right on the money which makes her jumping off the boat a lot more reasonable if she was expecting divine help one way or another.

[rhorle]

Yes, you're absolutely right here and I am not disagreeing with this point. I'm just making a clarification that you can't just point at Meteor man existing and say 'Well remember this is all a work of fiction' to handwave any rules being established by the show. The Elves aren't being depicted the same way as the Meteor Man.

We can point at Meteor man to establish that realism might not apply because it is an example of where the fiction diverged from realism. Hence it might diverge from realism in another spot. We weren't warned before hand for Meteor Man so we don't have to be warned before hand for water in the lungs. It is fiction. It can be anything the author wants because the authority on those internal rules is the author.

- - - Updated - - -

Not knowing that the sea could/would turn people into birds I figured her and Númenorian’s saying that and “the sea is always right” was just some generic fate stuff but it sounds more likely now that they are just right on the money which makes her jumping off the boat a lot more reasonable if she was expecting divine help one way or another.

I don't think she expected it. There is also a case where Tolkien had "one of the gods" save an elf by having a wave rescue only that elf and carry it all the way to land. So she might have hoped she would have divine help but I don't think it is the case that she knew.

[Triceron]

We can point at Meteor man to establish that realism might not apply because it is an example of where the fiction diverged from realism. Hence it might diverge from realism in another spot. We weren't warned before hand for Meteor Man so we don't have to be warned before hand for water in the lungs. It is fiction. It can be anything the author wants because the authority on those internal rules is the author.

Meteor Man doesn't actually conflict with the internal established rules for how Elf and Human physiology works. It's an apples and oranges argument which is literally what I was pointing out here.

Just because Apples don't have to all look the same or be a single color suddenly mean they can become Oranges. There are still rules in this world that are establishing a difference between Meteor Man and any other race we've been introduced to so far. There are still rules that apply to even Meteor Man, we simply aren't aware of what those limits would be yet.

Just because Meteor Man exists doesn't mean Elves can suddenly fly, make sense?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't think she expected it. There is also a case where Tolkien had "one of the gods" save an elf by having a wave rescue only that elf and carry it all the way to land. So she might have hoped she would have divine help but I don't think it is the case that she knew.

Comes across alot as a leap of faith for me with the further context. She doesn’t know for sure she’ll get help but she’s certain that she’s right so has faith it will work out even if she doesn’t know in what form her salvation will take.

[rhorle]

Meteor Man doesn't actually conflict with the internal established rules for how Elf and Human physiology works.

This is an textbook example of you being contrary to be contrary. Because you claim that an elf or human could fall from the sky in a fireball and that the show was established they are that capable. Meteor Man existing means that elves could suddenly fly if the author wants to. Because the author is not bound by only displaying what is real.

The rules are only ever what the author wants the rules to be. What is stopping an author from changing the rules they wrote to allow for elves to suddenly fly?

[Triceron]

This is an textbook example of you being contrary to be contrary. Because you claim that an elf or human could fall from the sky in a fireball and that the show was established they are that capable. Meteor Man existing means that elves could suddenly fly if the author wants to. Because the author is not bound by only displaying what is real.

The rules are only ever what the author wants the rules to be. What is stopping an author from changing the rules they wrote to allow for elves to suddenly fly?

Nothing prevents them from changing the rules, but if they are not consistent with anything that was pre-established in the narrative THEN the suspension of disbelief for the audience is subject to be broken. That is generally seen as a result of bad or inconsistent writing.

If Elves suddenly started flying or dropping out of the sky then yeah, people are gonna go WTF. And yes, Meteor Man is definitely a WTF moment but it's framed in a way where they intentionally leave it mysterious so we don't know who or what he is. If they confirm him to BE an Elf or Human then yeah, that would fuck up quite a lot of the established world wouldn't it? Right now, we don't know enough to even judge if he is, which is why the suspension of disbelief is still intact.

There is no case where anything goes just because it's a work of fiction and anything can be done at the behest of the Author at any time. That is where criticisms come in to specifically point out inconsistencies. Just like the whole reason Tolkien put this to paper in the first place, because Christopher Tolkien was pointing out inconsistencies in his descriptions in the color of Bilbo's door or the ornamentation on Thorin's hood.

I think I've made it clear why Meteor Man is not a good example of waving away internal rules of 'realism' just because it is fiction. Meteor Man doesn't contradict anything that has been established prior, because there is no confirmation of who or what he really is.

[rhorle]

Nothing prevents them from changing the rules, but if they are not consistent with anything that was pre-established in the narrative THEN the suspension of disbelief for the audience is subject to be broken.

So if nothing prevents them from changing the rules then they can be changed at any time including making elves suddenly be able to fly. You again defeat your own contrary opinion with your own argument. Lmao.

And yes, Meteor Man is definitely a WTF moment but it's framed in a way where they intentionally leave it mysterious so we don't know who or what he is.

This shows the double standard that is being applied between something you like and something you wouldn't like. A man falling from the sky is mysterious and an perfectly acceptable sudden change. However elves flying would be an unacceptable sudden change. Inconsistencies in the description of object is not relevant to this discussion. Those are continuity errors and not internal rules.

[Triceron]

So if nothing prevents them from changing the rules then they can be changed at any time including making elves suddenly be able to fly. You again defeat your own contrary opinion with your own argument. Lmao.

Yes, they could.

And there would be legitimate reason to criticize the changes. The author has the power to change it, and the audience has the choice to reject it and not accept it. It can be attributed to being a bad change.

Such things are already true with Greedo Shot First in the Star Wars community, where Lucas chose to make that canon while fans generally do not recognize it to be a legitimate part of the series, and continue to regard Han Shot First as the legimate sequence of events.

This shows the double standard that is being applied between something you like and something you wouldn't like. A man falling from the sky is mysterious and an perfectly acceptable sudden change. However elves flying would be an unacceptable sudden change. Inconsistencies in the description of object is not relevant to this discussion. Those are continuity errors and not internal rules.

Again, it doesn't change anything because whoever fell out of the sky is not immediately a 'man'. It is a mysterious being in the form of a man, and we know such things exist in the established fiction of the show. This is how Sauron himself is depicted, who is a being known to take many forms and have many names.

Like, part of the whole mystery of the Stranger is that he COULD be Sauron. That is why it's not a contradiction like you are trying to argue it to be. We already know such beings exist in this very show's established universe. Beings that are greater than Men and Elves.

All the while, your argument implies that since this is all fiction, then there's no line to draw and Elves can be god-like if the author wants them to be just because it's 'fiction'. Well there are rules in place that would prevent that from happening, and if they were to happen, be scrutinized as breaking the show's internal rules and be criticized for being products of poor writing choices.

For the Meteor Man in particular, this hasn't happened.

[Dhrizzle]

Comes across alot as a leap of faith for me with the further context. She doesn’t know for sure she’ll get help but she’s certain that she’s right so has faith it will work out even if she doesn’t know in what form her salvation will take.

That's how I read it, probably with a "prayer" to Ulmo but from what happened next I'd say Ossë was probably involved.

[rhorle]

And there would be legitimate reason to criticize the changes. The author has the power to change it, and the audience has the choice to reject it and not accept it. It can be attributed to being a bad change.

That exists regardless and is not reliant on "internal rules" never being allowed to be changed by an author. Your own argument about the meteor man not being "immediately" a man is defeated by you also saying he is in the form of a man. Did the show tell you that? Or is that your assumption because you've decided it defies what a man should be. How do you not that humans in the fiction of the show do not sometimes fall from the sky?

You are subjectively applying your argument based on if you like or dislike a rule being changed. You were fine with the meteor man falling from the sky so a sudden change from "internal rules" is fine. You'd dislike elves suddenly flying off even though it is the same as a human suddenly surviving a fall from the sky.

[Triceron]

That exists regardless and is not reliant on "internal rules" never being allowed to be changed by an author. Your own argument about the meteor man not being "immediately" a man is defeated by you also saying he is in the form of a man. Did the show tell you that? Or is that your assumption because you've decided it defies what a man should be. How do you not that humans in the fiction of the show do not sometimes fall from the sky?

And what would your answer be based on your own logic?

That it is fiction therefore it is normal for men to fall out of the sky? And that you would consider it normal for normal men to fall out of the sky, and you wouldn't question it either way because this happens to be a work of fiction?


I'm arguing that an internal logic still exists, and the presence of a 'Meteor man' would logically assume that this may not be a man. And we know godly beings in mortal form already exist in the established fiction of the show, therefore it can be reasonable to assume that's what he may be. Your example isn't a natural means of pointing out a contradiction, because they aren't really contradictions considering the show has already established the existence of greater/godly beings who choose to take the form of mortals.

[rhorle]

That it is fiction therefore it is normal for men to fall out of the sky?

So what rules do authors of fiction have to follow if not the ones they create themselves? You keep saying it is fine that authors create their own rules while arguing that it is a problem. Any inconsistency with the real world is because the work is fiction. Have you never learned the difference between non-fiction and fiction? Lmao. So if an elf doesn't behave underwater like the real world it is because it is a work of fiction. Simple as that.

Of course internal logic still exists which is why using realism to define internal logic doesn't work. Because it is not required to be realistic. The scene in question, being unconscious underwater, doesn't even break with realism. Nothing brought up so far has contradicted what is shown for "internal rules" which is why this is a red herring you've latched on to in order to keep arguing for the sake of it.

[Triceron]

So what rules do authors of fiction have to follow if not the ones they create themselves?

Those ARE the rules they need to follow. The ones that they establish.

Again, when you make the example of Meteor man exists, you are doing so to illustrate how Elves do not have to be bound to any form of 'realism' logic. Yet they do, and that realism is whatever the author creates.

And the current fiction for Elves is that they are prone to mortal death, like through fatigue, throat-slitting and drowning. That would imply that they would not be immune to the effects of falling from the sky like a Meteor. And Meteor Man does not establish this as a change or new rule that applies to either Elves or Men, because as I have said, he has not been established TO BE a mere mortal. We are talking about a world where beings like Sauron exist, who is greater than mere mortals and capable of taking many forms, including that of mortals.

So with your own example, you haven't actually made any point of the fiction having broken any of its internal rules of 'realism', because we're talking about a fictional setting where gods walk amongst men in mortal form while Elves and Men are still prone to physical deaths.

You keep saying it is fine that authors create their own rules while arguing that it is a problem.

I didn't say it was a problem. I said your explanation that "We're talking about a setting where Meteor Man exists" and does not dismiss the internally defined realism of the fiction.

Of course internal logic still exists which is why using realism to define internal logic doesn't work. Because it is not required to be realistic. The scene in question, being unconscious underwater, doesn't even break with realism. Nothing brought up so far has contradicted what is shown for "internal rules" which is why this is a red herring you've latched on to in order to keep arguing for the sake of it.

Realism is relative to the works.

You might be talking about Real World realism, but that is not the only type that exists. Realism also exists in a fictional universe and is defined by its own rules. That is why I'm using the example of Elves flying. That would not be realistic in the Tolkien setting of Middle Earth, even in adaptations, because there are certain rules at play. It would be fine in any other setting that does establish flying Elves, but not one in this particular universe and its adaptations. And in this particular example, the Tolkien Estate would likely be the gatekeepers for something like that.

Specifically for the Underwater scene, there is no reason to assume their physiology would be all that different from Humans considering the show has internally defined them as being similar to Humans in terms of mortality against their environments. They have not, and are not, establishing that Elves are somehow resistant to drowning. That being said, I still say it's debateable whether she actually was unconscious in the first place, since she seemed to be swimming and gasping for air just fine, and was not waterlogged in the least.