1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    ... skin color often IS a strong part of peoples personal identity. Its not racism to say that, if anything its racism to say its not. Like one of those people who say "I dont see race" which is more often than not code for "I'm tottally a racist"
    That's a pretty subtle strawman, but still a strawman. What Veggie said was "skin color being a key indicator for personal identity"

    "Part of who I am is that I'm Asian" =/= "You are Asian, so you must be X"

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    There's no evolution in Arda...
    I'd say that's debatable. Certainly the species of Arda were not created through a process of natural selection but we know that Hobbits descended from Hobbit-like ancestors, and as they are related to men it seems likely they evolved from men. There also seems to be some difference between the Dwarves, especially the "petty dwarves" mentioned in the Silmarillion. Then of course there is the descent of the Numenorians as their spiritual corruption caused them to become less mighty. These changes might not be down to "natural" processes as we understand them but we do see changes in species/races over time.

    The other thing to note is Tolkien's conceit that he didn't "create" Arda but translated myths from his invented language, and LotR is the stories he imagined Anglo-Saxons (or pre-Anglo-Saxons) may have come up with so looking for strictly logical and canonical reasoning is unnecessary.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    That's a pretty subtle strawman, but still a strawman. What Veggie said was "skin color being a key indicator for personal identity"

    "Part of who I am is that I'm Asian" =/= "You are Asian, so you must be X"
    The point kinda still stands. Just changing peoples ethnicity around like its a new shirt cheapenes things as a whole.

    To me, if they do this they had better commit to it. Dont let it be token. They are exploring, till this point, unexplored parts of middle earth. Dont make it the Princess who just happens to be black when no one else is. Have her whole ass kingdom of dwarves be black. Give them an identity. Dont make it that "Oh it just happens that one in every hundred dwarf births are black".
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  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Journey to the West has been adapted (albeit loosely) many times in many forms.

    Into the Badlands is a loose adaptation that has plenty of enthicities in it. The videogame Enslaved: Odyssey to the West also had a white protagonist. Then you have a bunch of Japanese anime adaptations that change up characters to females, or even something like Dragonball that literally turns Son Goku into an extraterrestrial.

    So yes, adaptations can be whatever they choose to be.
    This isn't even a new thing, the Arthurian legends have been massively distorted and the current popular incarnation of a Christian king of the English is totally at odds with the oldest stories that have him resisting the Saxon invaders. Robin Hood's current incarnation as a noble ally of the king doesn't gel with the old stories of a yeoman who was antagonistic to the king (and which king it is has changed over time.) Going further back we see the Romans taking the Greek gods and Romanificiationising them to fit their cultural norms, and those pagan gods are just one of many adaptations of a proto-Indoeuropean pantheon that is only inferred by similarities between its descendents.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    Too bad for you I'm Asian, so race card and your racism shit won't work on me. And US bashing? where?

    Of course it would change the story, because it would imply that there are Elven civilizations on parts of that map where there are none currently, not
    to mention the issue of how that specific elf got there. What host did he leave Valinor with? How did he get to go south? Howcome he doesn't have the same
    genetic makeup as the others in his group? Do they have a trade going with the Elves in the north? Why are elves so rare then if there are caravans crossing
    the land the entire time? Because those would all affect key decisions in the story, same with dark skinned hobbits, hobbits have a southern base
    all of a sudden? Even though they are slow to accept change and dislike adventure they somehow trade actively with the hobbits up north? So there
    are hobbit trade routes and caravans?

    What about the Dwarf princess? How did that happen? She has dark skin, must mean she lives on the surface, in the south, that would radically change what
    we know about dwarves.

    Elves also all awoke under starlight, one of the reasons they are drawn to starlight. When they awoke the sun didn't yet exist.

    I think there being black elves dwarves and hobbits would change significant parts of the world and it's workings to make it make sense.

    How about we actually make a movie or series out of some actual African fantasy instead? Or are you too racist to go watch that? you just
    like the odd token sprinkled in there to think you did your good deed for the day?
    Asians can’t be racist? You heard it here first folks!

    The “US bashing” occurred when you told me my argument was typically USA centric and would therefore change once I had travelled more. It’s a clear jab at US xenophobia, but your posts don’t exactly display any form of self reflection

    Did you seriously argue “black dwarfs must mean they live on the surface, because it must have happened as a coping mechanism to sunlight”? By your logic, all elves must have been blind when the light of the trees ignited because their eyes never adapted to more than starlight. Are we completely forgetting this is a fantasy setting?

    Yea it’s a bit different from the source material. It also means more people can recognise themselves in the characters. So my conclusion is; big fuckin deal. ^^

    If its a dealbreaker to you, sorry to hear it. Concluding its “stupid” is just shortsighted though.

    Edit: i forgot to reply to this part, but yes. Me not caring if there are some dark skinned characters in lotr clearly makes me a racist =P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Well, it sort of is a key indicator of where you come from in Lord of the Rings which has heavy implications on your allegiances etc.
    Yea I know. Im just not so opposed to changing the “people with dark skin are obviously bad” narrative a bit ^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    ... skin color often IS a strong part of peoples personal identity. Its not racism to say that, if anything its racism to say its not. Like one of those people who say "I dont see race" which is more often than not code for "I'm tottally a racist"
    Skin colour being a strong part of personal identity is the result of a racist worldview. It does not matter wether this belief is held by black people, white people, or any other race.

    Racism literally is the attribution of qualities due to race. Mind you I’m not mentioning discrimination here. Those two terms are often conflated but different in their meaning.
    Last edited by Veggie50; 2022-02-13 at 12:26 PM.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    Asians can’t be racist? You heard it here first folks!

    The “US bashing” occurred when you told me my argument was typically USA centric and would therefore change once I had travelled more. It’s a clear jab at US xenophobia, but your posts don’t exactly display any form of self reflection

    Did you seriously argue “black dwarfs must mean they live on the surface, because it must have happened as a coping mechanism to sunlight”? By your logic, all elves must have been blind when the light of the trees ignited because their eyes never adapted to more than starlight. Are we completely forgetting this is a fantasy setting?

    Yea it’s a bit different from the source material. It also means more people can recognise themselves in the characters. So my conclusion is; big fuckin deal. ^^

    If its a dealbreaker to you, sorry to hear it. Concluding its “stupid” is just shortsighted though.

    Edit: i forgot to reply to this part, but yes. Me not caring if there are some dark skinned characters in lotr clearly makes me a racist =P

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    Yea I know. Im just not so opposed to changing the “people with dark skin are obviously bad” narrative a bit ^^

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    Skin colour being a strong part of personal identity is the result of a racist worldview. It does not matter wether this belief is held by black people, white people, or any other race.

    Racism literally is the attribution of qualities due to race. Mind you I’m not mentioning discrimination here. Those two terms are often conflated but different in their meaning.
    What a ridiculous post, you are aware that in the setting the elves are created by Illuvatar, this settings god, and that the entire history of the world was determined before middle earth was even created, obviously Illuvatar knew there would be light eventually and would have designed the eyes so they would work in both conditions. All Elves share their origins with the first 144 that awoke under the stars, and they all long to return west. These are key story elements.

    The dwarves were formed deep under a mountain by Aule, later given live by Illuvatar because only he could grant the flame of life. Dwarves were all born under ground and they live under ground, but you are saying one getting dark skin would not imply anything at all?

    Yes it's fantasy, but it has to make logical sense like everything else. Because once one part is seen to be fake, everything feels fake.

    Also, of course race affects you, it affects how people react to you, that can be both in a positive and a negative way. If you travel to Sri Lanka as a Chinese for instance, people will often comment on how fair your skin is, in China, people are amazed by blue eyes, it doesn't have to be something negative, but if you look different from everyone else, it will affect you.
    The same goes for if you are tall or short, big or small, and many other immutable characteristics, they all affect how people look at you.
    That in turn will affect you, there is nothing racist about being amazed or intrigued by someone different from yourself, and when you go back
    to when travel was actually difficult, of course people would be amazed if they saw a person of a different skin color if it wasn't along
    some trade route where it was more common.
    Or are you telling me, that if you saw a real life night elf for the first time tomorrow, you'd just go about your day, you wouldn't want to have
    an extra look, and the elf in question wouldn't be affected by everyone looking? Remember, they don't have the internet, good education or
    access to public libraries, to them a person with dark skin might be nearly as alien as a night elf would be to you

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    The point kinda still stands. Just changing peoples ethnicity around like its a new shirt cheapenes things as a whole.

    To me, if they do this they had better commit to it. Dont let it be token. They are exploring, till this point, unexplored parts of middle earth. Dont make it the Princess who just happens to be black when no one else is. Have her whole ass kingdom of dwarves be black. Give them an identity. Dont make it that "Oh it just happens that one in every hundred dwarf births are black".
    Making an entire tribe/clan of dwarves, or at least majority, being black/brown-skinned would be a good thing to do
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2022-02-13 at 01:05 PM.

  8. #488
    Generally speaking I don't like it when established fantasy universes or folklore are altered to reflect modern real world demographics or politics. The result is almost always an immersion-breaking incongruity. It's worse when it's done to folklore, because it's a form of cultural whitewashing or re-writing of history. Represent those worlds and cultures properly or just leave them alone. Doing otherwise shows a complete disregard for the integrity of the author's work and for the universe or culture being depicted. There's plenty of room for new fantasy that ticks all the modern boxes.
    Last edited by DarkAmbient; 2022-02-13 at 01:38 PM.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    if you think the main issue is with race, then you missed the point by a country fucking mile, it's the fact that they have taken an established, rich and generally accepted lore, took a steaming hot shite all over it, then tried to pass it off as a 'modern interpretation'.

    in the legendarium, ALL dwarves are born with beards, doesn't matter if they are male or female, furthermore ALL dwarves are descended from Durin I, the father of all dwarves who was 'white', it's is biologically impossible both in a fantasy setting or real world setting for a pure white bloodline to have a 'black' child sprout up out of thin air, so they are doubling down on their stupidity here with this one.

    the same goes for elves, they were all fashioned in the image of the one and only god of the Tolkein universe ERU Illuvatar, they were all 'born' with 'white' progenitors, and as far as i know, nowhere ever is it written that elves travelled anywhere near the lands of Harad/Umbar or the general regions of Rhun, meaning that even if you give a VERY generous amount of artistic license for interracial breeding (which was EXTREMELY rare among elves to begin with anyway), there's literally no biological way for there to be a black elf, not just that, but all elves of middle earth are said to share several physical traits, some of those being 'fair of skin' and being 'radiant/ethereal' in appearance, not to mention the constant reinforcement of their long flowing hair, i wasn't aware that in the second age the elves had developed barber shops and were skilled in making the stereotypical 'fade' that afro-americans are fond of? if you can tell me where that is written about in the collected works of Tolkein i would be very interested in reading about it.

    and lastly, i wasn't aware that calling out something for being stupid was considered people getting 'outraged', i wasn't aware that ridiculing something that should be rightfully ridiculed was termed 'outrage culture', it boggles my mind that the world has been infected by the stupidity bubble that covers america, it's a crying shame that the ability for public discourse to occur has been and continues to be eroded because the newer generations can't bear to have their feelings hurt.
    Honestly i could not give less of a shit.
    Some works of ficiton have been writtenin a time where there simply only white people have been used. And in the end NOTHING litterally NOTHING changes if a dwarf is black instead of white. Do i say it changes nothing on lore? No. It obviously does. But this change has no impact on anything else. UNLESS they start taking about black and white racism on the show... that would be shit.

    I agree though on the beard stuff... the female dwarfes should have beards. And i don't think the sister was a neccesary additon.

    And i was talking about outrage culture because ever since the casting call for a intimacy director was shown people screamed left and right about SJWs destroyed the show... never thinking about the current landscape and intimicy director are even taken in if people only kiss now.
    You cannot mention this show without someone coming in from the side screaming from the top of their lungs " REEEEEEE black dwarfes REEEEE!"

    Also this only happens in the internet. I have not met one person IRL that actually has a problem with it or says somethign because they no it would just come of wuite weird focusing so hard on skincolor.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    What a ridiculous post, you are aware that in the setting the elves are created by Illuvatar, this settings god, and that the entire history of the world was determined before middle earth was even created, obviously Illuvatar knew there would be light eventually and would have designed the eyes so they would work in both conditions. All Elves share their origins with the first 144 that awoke under the stars, and they all long to return west. These are key story elements.

    The dwarves were formed deep under a mountain by Aule, later given live by Illuvatar because only he could grant the flame of life. Dwarves were all born under ground and they live under ground, but you are saying one getting dark skin would not imply anything at all?

    Yes it's fantasy, but it has to make logical sense like everything else. Because once one part is seen to be fake, everything feels fake.

    Also, of course race affects you, it affects how people react to you, that can be both in a positive and a negative way. If you travel to Sri Lanka as a Chinese for instance, people will often comment on how fair your skin is, in China, people are amazed by blue eyes, it doesn't have to be something negative, but if you look different from everyone else, it will affect you.
    The same goes for if you are tall or short, big or small, and many other immutable characteristics, they all affect how people look at you.
    That in turn will affect you, there is nothing racist about being amazed or intrigued by someone different from yourself, and when you go back
    to when travel was actually difficult, of course people would be amazed if they saw a person of a different skin color if it wasn't along
    some trade route where it was more common.
    Or are you telling me, that if you saw a real life night elf for the first time tomorrow, you'd just go about your day, you wouldn't want to have
    an extra look, and the elf in question wouldn't be affected by everyone looking? Remember, they don't have the internet, good education or
    access to public libraries, to them a person with dark skin might be nearly as alien as a night elf would be to you
    Right… so it makes sense that illuvatar preprogrammed elven eyes to be able to fully function in dark and light, but it is impossible for aule to sprinkle in a recessive dark skin gene :P

    All I’m saying is you have a VERY particular idea of what “makes sense” and what doesn’t. Sorry, not everyones gonna agree on that. My point goes beyond what can be explained in lore though.

    Do I think the show improves with a multicultural cast? No, not really.
    Do I think the show is shit because some characters I would have pictured as white are dark skinned? No, not really.

    Mountains out of molehills.

  11. #491
    "She was proud, strong, and self-willed, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget. From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only Fëanor."

    Brash and angry.

    But she is nearing 5000. Maybe it is middle-age crisis?
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  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Making an entire tribe/clan of dwarves, or at least majority, being black/brown-skinned would be a good thing to do
    My problem is and always will be that its tokenism and marketting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Honestly i could not give less of a shit.
    Some works of ficiton have been writtenin a time where there simply only white people have been used. And in the end NOTHING litterally NOTHING changes if a dwarf is black instead of white. Do i say it changes nothing on lore? No. It obviously does. But this change has no impact on anything else. UNLESS they start taking about black and white racism on the show... that would be shit.

    I agree though on the beard stuff... the female dwarfes should have beards. And i don't think the sister was a neccesary additon.

    And i was talking about outrage culture because ever since the casting call for a intimacy director was shown people screamed left and right about SJWs destroyed the show... never thinking about the current landscape and intimicy director are even taken in if people only kiss now.
    You cannot mention this show without someone coming in from the side screaming from the top of their lungs " REEEEEEE black dwarfes REEEEE!"

    Also this only happens in the internet. I have not met one person IRL that actually has a problem with it or says somethign because they no it would just come of wuite weird focusing so hard on skincolor.
    Would you be fine if it was a piece of literature based on African folklore that decided to make the characters white?


    Its just tokenism. Its a marketting ploy. And its going to work as it has so many times before.
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  13. #493
    I'm not buying into the "elven ambition" shtick. That's was Númenor's downfall. Elves revered the Valar and such ambition would seem distasteful. The closest to that sort of feeling is reflected in their skills and crafts. The best smiths...the best warriors, and the ego that came with it.
    Last edited by Shadowferal; 2022-02-13 at 02:35 PM.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurasu View Post
    What are you basing this off of so far? We don't really know anything about the characters yet, except what Tolkien himself established - Elven women were not frail in the Silmarillion, as an example.
    The fact that Amazon also produced that abortion adaptation of The Wheel of Time. Not to mention all the other products out there that check the diversity boxes but offer nothing else as far as interesting characters and story. Or just the blatant retconning of existing characters like they've done with Galadrial, or a myriad of other characters in recent years (looking at you, Disney Star Wars!). The trailer looks awful, and I have no doubts that this is going to be abysmal just like WoT was because the "creators" involved have zero experience or anywhere near the level of creative talent as Tolkien. Not to mention the already obvious disregard being put forth of his universe is well beyond anything Peter Jackson did, and at least he attempted to be faithful to the source material as much as possible while taking enough creative liberties to produce entertaining films that don't drag on.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I'm not buying into the "elven ambition" shtick. That's was Númenor's downfall. Elves revered the Valar and such ambition would seem distasteful. The closest to that sort of feeling is reflected in their skills and crafts. The best smiths...the best warriors, and the ego that came with it.
    I dunno… admittedly, its been some years since I last read the silmarillion, but I seem to recall the different elven factions having some radically different motivations.

    Granted, I never read anything about jealousy of the valar, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it played some part somewhere too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    The fact that Amazon also produced that abortion adaptation of The Wheel of Time. Not to mention all the other products out there that check the diversity boxes but offer nothing else as far as interesting characters and story. Or just the blatant retconning of existing characters like they've done with Galadrial, or a myriad of other characters in recent years (looking at you, Disney Star Wars!). The trailer looks awful, and I have no doubts that this is going to be abysmal just like WoT was because the "creators" involved have zero experience or anywhere near the level of creative talent as Tolkien. Not to mention the already obvious disregard being put forth of his universe is well beyond anything Peter Jackson did, and at least he attempted to be faithful to the source material as much as possible while taking enough creative liberties to produce entertaining films that don't drag on.
    Wait… did I miss a trailer drop? Or are you referring to the title reveal? Because that practical effect metal pouring blew me away

  16. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    My problem is and always will be that its tokenism and marketting.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Would you be fine if it was a piece of literature based on African folklore that decided to make the characters white?


    Its just tokenism. Its a marketting ploy. And its going to work as it has so many times before.
    Nah, it won't work because people are seeing past the tokenism, not to mention the obvious cultural colonialism being attempted by Hollywood to insult the works of dead writers. On the upside, none of this garbage will ever be canon.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    "She was proud, strong, and self-willed, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget. From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only Fëanor."

    Brash and angry.

    But she is nearing 5000. Maybe it is middle-age crisis?
    Yeah. She should at least be among the oldest elves in Middle Earth at that point? I'll reserve my judgement until we see more but that part of the interview was concerning since it seems just be a blatant mischaracterization.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    I dunno… admittedly, its been some years since I last read the silmarillion, but I seem to recall the different elven factions having some radically different motivations.
    Two big ones;
    The Oath of Feanor, which was based on returning the simarils;
    And then we have Beren (mortal man) knocking boots with Luthien (immortal elf). And daddy (Thingol) is very much opposed and appalled.

  19. #499
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    After reading some of the comments I'm a bit confused on if Harad survived after the 3rd age because I was under the impression that Aragorn sent ambassadors to Harad and they maintained a peace in the 4th age. Also didn't King Falastur of Gondor had a high born Haradrim wife from Harad in the 3rd age?. I think I need to go reread some parts...

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    "She was proud, strong, and self-willed, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget. From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only Fëanor."

    Brash and angry.

    But she is nearing 5000. Maybe it is middle-age crisis?
    Also the “fighting for the future” while Elrond is “politically ambitious” seems they might be leaning into the “men bad women good” trope that destroyed WoT.

    It’s the whole “we have to create conflict to keep things interesting” idea that is so stupid in the context of fantasy, and appeared all over late GoT as well. My favorite example was when Jaime started randomly yelling at Cersei that they needed allies, and Cersei, instead of saying, “I agree, I got the Ironborn” just smiled and then deus ex Greyjoy sailed into the harbor.

    To be fair, LotR had its fair share of it too, with Gandalf telling Theoden to “ride out and meet” the orcs in battle with his like 200 soldiers… a moronic idea that was just introduced because “story needs conflict”.

    In this series I assume the rational goes: “we have to create conflict, and the female has to be good, so we’ll give the bad qualities to the male.”
    Last edited by Coniferous; 2022-02-13 at 03:58 PM.

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