1. #4981
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    17,358
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Those ARE the rules they need to follow. The ones that they establish.
    Which means they can change the rules whenever they want because they establish what they are. There are no "internal rules of reaslim". Fiction isn't real so is not bound by what is only possible in the real world. That is the entire definition of Fiction. Lmao.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #4982
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which means they can change the rules whenever they want because they establish what they are. There are no "internal rules of reaslim". Fiction isn't real so is not bound by what is only possible in the real world. That is the entire definition of Fiction. Lmao.
    Er, yes there are. It is how believable a fictional world is by means of grounding itself in reality or having its 'fantastic' elements be realistically plausible in the context of the fictional world

    It's called verisimilitude


    And for the most part, the Meteor Man still works in the confines of the fictional universe. As long as they don't merely confirm him to be mortal, his existence is still grounded as a plausible and believable part of the fictional universe.

    I would actually argue that Galadriel's depiction in this series (so far) lacks verismilitude. Her character is not entirely believable, considering she should be a mere mortal Elf yet seems to be unnaturally lucky or immune to consequences of her environment (ie - not feeling fatigue, not getting locked up in Numenor even when caught, etc). She is a non-supernatural being who seems to have special priveledges beyond her capabilities.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 09:52 PM.

  3. #4983
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    17,358
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Er, yes there are.
    Which real world rules is a work of fiction required to follow? Suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with following realism. That term specifically has to do with things that are not possible in reality. Lmao. An example of suspension of disbelief would be ignoring that it is impossible for Galadrial to swim across an ocean yet she was trying to do so anyways.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #4984
    Whilst overall I agree with @Triceron that there needs to be some overall consistency to a fantasy like RoP, in the specific example of the drowning scene I don't think it really applies. It's about the drama and aesthetics of the scene and the biological mechanisms of unconscious humans drowning and their applicability to Elves really doesn't matter.

  5. #4985
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Er, yes there are. It is how believable a fictional world is by means of grounding itself in reality or having its 'fantastic' elements be realistically plausible in the context of the fictional world

    It's called verisimilitude
    That's not the same thing. In fact it can't be, because it only works BECAUSE of its relation to ACTUAL rules - i.e. the rules of real-world reality, which cannot be broken. Fiction CAN break them; which is why they're not rules to fiction, only to reality, and the "verisimilitude" you're talking about (which is really just realism) is effectively just a measure of degrees of breakage. But that's with respect to the rules of reality. There's no rules like that for fiction.

    Suspension of disbelief is the degree of acceptance of deviation from those rules. Effectively, it's a negotiation by which the importance of the rules is foregone in favor of the importance of enjoyment. But that - again - is always with respect to the rules of the real world. They are the only measuring stick we have.

    (And of course these are descriptive rules, not prescriptive rules. That's why you can't break them. The speed of light, for example, is not a "rule" like, say, the speed limit in a school zone - if we were to discover the speed of light isn't as absolute as we thought, the rule would be CHANGED, not broken.)

    That's not to say that there isn't some value to internal self-consistency in fiction, of course. But that's not the same thing. And it's important to keep that distinction in mind.

  6. #4986
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which real world rules is a work of fiction required to follow?
    I never said anything about having it be tied to real world rules. So none.

    I've clearly said 'Realism' is a definition for something that is plausibly believable to be real. It doesn't mean automatically mean 'sourced from real life'. Such an example is a painting that looks realistic but isn't based on any real life thing or location.

    Suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with following realism.
    No, it doesn't.

    Verisimilitude does.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 10:05 PM.

  7. #4987
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    16,924
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    ...lol

    Even if she was strong enough to swim against being pulled down by a big chunk of wood/metal/rope, it wouldn't much matter if she was fucking unconscious. Which...you know:
    Yeah, also point the bit where she become unconcious for no reason, to proof how this is obnoxiously inconcistent,

    Either way, the point still stands, it would not sink and pull her tht fast, its not a fucking anchor.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    https://www.piecesofship.com/pageShi...ckPulleys.html

    The weight of block pulley can vary. One on the page I linked to is 74 lbs. It is possible they could way more. Without doing a myth busters level of scientific inquiry into buoyancy and stuff it seems plausible.
    It does not, its a piece of wood with rope and some metal bits, it would not sink that fast and that hard, its absurd like many other things in this show

  8. #4988
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which real world rules is a work of fiction required to follow? Suspension of disbelief has nothing to do with following realism. That term specifically has to do with things that are not possible in reality. Lmao. An example of suspension of disbelief would be ignoring that it is impossible for Galadrial to swim across an ocean yet she was trying to do so anyways.
    People in this thread have talked a big game about how LotR is supposed to be English folklore, but I seem to recall a certain earlier work of English folklore that featured a guy talking about his week-long swimming race against his friend...that ended with him killing a dozen sea monsters while armed with nothing but a sword and a mail shirt.

  9. #4989
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    16,924
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    or you know they captured the watch post before there trench thing was moved with in its view. It’s even likely they took the post when black elf went to check on his girl friend which is why the other elfs were already there before he was captured exploring a tunnel in a distant town.
    Or you know, they didn't, and its the show being awful and inconsistent as the thing is too big and wide people with far sight would definetly notice, specially knowing how many time it would have taken to do that

    saying a military enforce group of elves were captured by orcs is also completely nonsensical, they are incompetent fuckers. Also, it don't make any sense to keep Rondir or whatever is his name alive, to meet the guy, its just plot armor, they didn't come up with a single good reason of why he should be kept alive, again, awful writing.

    This show is full of plotholes with you trying to fill the massive gaps of logic and storytelling, this is not how a show like this should be done

    no but the human girl friends son is notably Asian and given that they are leaving for some where else in the south lands it’s fairly certain that we’ll see the black villagers when ever we see where they went.
    Right, point still stands

  10. #4990
    Banned Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    21,136
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Yeah, also point the bit where she become unconcious for no reason, to proof how this is obnoxiously inconcistent,
    from the looks of it if you pause at the right moment the piece of wood she was holding onto hits her in the head as she goes into the water.

  11. #4991
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    16,924
    It would be impossible to Galadriel swim across the ocean from elfland to middle earth, period, She even confirm herself saying the Numenor people rescued her from certain death

    She knew it was impossible, she knew it was certain death, but she tried anyway, she 100% tried to commit suicide

    That, or she knew she was going to be saved cause plot armor, which is again, bad writing

  12. #4992
    Banned Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    21,136
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Or you know, they didn't, and its the show being awful and inconsistent as the thing is too big and wide people with far sight would definetly notice, specially knowing how many time it would have taken to do that

    saying a military enforce group of elves were captured by orcs is also completely nonsensical, they are incompetent fuckers.
    We have no way of knowing where the trench would have been while the elf's were still manning the watch tower, the only idea we get is that they tunneled ahead of it to capture slaves at the same time the elf's were leaving the tower and that was a town away from the elf's, so there is no reason to think it was viewable from there outpost given that it hadn't even gotten to the second town while they were still on guard.

    they didn't come up with a single good reason of why he should be kept alive, again, awful writing.
    that's what the next episode and meeting the leader is for.

    This show is full of plotholes with you trying to fill the massive gaps of logic and storytelling, this is not how a show like this should be done
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-09-14 at 10:14 PM.

  13. #4993
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    She knew it was impossible, she knew it was certain death, but she tried anyway, she 100% tried to commit suicide
    That doesn't follow, logically.

    "It's impossible to swim to safety" does not equal "I want to die". At best, it equals "I'll probably die", which only means she preferred the off chance of something unlikely happening to the alternative; NOT that she intentionally WANTED to die.

    It's like jumping out of the Xth-floor window of a burning building. Sure you'll PROBABLY die anyway, and it's unlikely you'll ever survive a fall like that; but not impossible. That doesn't mean you're committing suicide, you're just taking a chance on a very very slim outcome because the alternative is worse to you.

  14. #4994
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    16,924
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    from the looks of it if you pause at the right moment the piece of wood she was holding onto hits her in the head as she goes into the water.
    And a small piece of wood would knock the mighty Galadriel unconscious, the one showed since episode one as relentless, resistant and powerful

    Again, see what i mean? inconsistency and bad storytelling, it would have worked just fine if it was the human, But they want us to believe the one that one shot the ice troll would faint from a piece of wood, then go under the sea and not wake up? (cause without major injuries the brain could wake you up if you stop breathing)

    Like i said, this is not the end of the world, but its bad, it feel bad to watch, a lot of things that happens in this series, if removed, would make it much better

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    We have no way of knowing where the trench would have been while the elf's were still manning the watch tower, the only idea we get is that they tunneled ahead of it to capture slaves at the same time the elf's were leaving the tower and that was a town away from the elf's, so there is no reason to think it was viewable from there outpost given that it hadn't even gotten to the second town while they were still on guard.
    ep, we have no way of knowing shit, because the series don't tell or show shit, what we have is a bunch of incompetent elves and a big wide area without trees, and no one fucking notice.

    And again, tis too big, it had to be taken at least months.

    that's what the next episode and meeting the leader is for.
    Yeah sure, 100% they will say it the big reason

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That doesn't follow, logically.

    "It's impossible to swim to safety" does not equal "I want to die". At best, it equals "I'll probably die", which only means she preferred the off chance of something unlikely happening to the alternative; NOT that she intentionally WANTED to die.
    My dude, she spelled out, "you save us from certain death", its was 100% suicide and she knew, and she did know because she is Galadriel 5 thousand years old one of the wisest and intelligent elves to live.

    You are basically gambling that someone like Galadriel, would gamble with her life, that she jump to certain death, risking to never complete her vengeance, with the small hopes of finding something in the ocean that would save her from certain death.

    It's like jumping out of the Xth-floor window of a burning building. Sure you'll PROBABLY die anyway, and it's unlikely you'll ever survive a fall like that; but not impossible. That doesn't mean you're committing suicide, you're just taking a chance on a very very slim outcome because the alternative is worse to you.
    Except she was not in a burning build right? except, the jump was so high that is no probably, you 100% would die, she just happen to jump in a safety net, because god put a safety net there.

    When she could, just, you know, take the fucking ship and head back, but then there would not be any drama

    Cause they are too fucking bad to make her ship sink/be destroyed by the sea monsters and everything happens the same

  15. #4995
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's not the same thing. In fact it can't be, because it only works BECAUSE of its relation to ACTUAL rules - i.e. the rules of real-world reality, which cannot be broken. Fiction CAN break them; which is why they're not rules to fiction, only to reality, and the "verisimilitude" you're talking about (which is really just realism) is effectively just a measure of degrees of breakage. But that's with respect to the rules of reality. There's no rules like that for fiction.
    Verisimilitude covers the believability of fiction within its own fictional world. An example is Time Travel and flying cars being a plausible thing in Back to the Future, and the paradoxes of Time Travel (fading photographs) being regarded authentically within the context of the movies. It works and it feels realistic within the context of these movies because the rules they have defined are consistent and believable, even if all the science is made-up.

    And a key part of maintaining verisimilitude is having a consistent internal logic to the fiction, something that RoP is very hit-and-miss at especially when defining certain cultural normalities or the sheer dumb luck of characters getting out of a perceived 'impossible' scenario. And for whatever reason, most, if not all, of my own criticisms fall squarely on Galadriel's arc. I find the rest of the show works for me and doesn't often take me out of it.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 10:35 PM.

  16. #4996
    Banned Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    21,136
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    And a small piece of wood would knock the mighty Galadriel unconscious, the one showed since episode one as relentless, resistant and powerful

    Again, see what i mean? inconsistency and bad storytelling
    It's not incositent at all we never see her take a blow before that point let alone a 2 by 4 to the back of the head.

    ep, we have no way of knowing shit, because the series don't tell or show shit, what we have is a bunch of incompetent elves and a big wide area without trees, and no one fucking notice.
    I mean it does tell us that it's further away then the town over and that they had more hidden tunnels to capture slaves which seemingly go pretty far given that black elf was exploring them the whole time his girl friend went back to town failed to convince any one fought an orc and then brought the orc head to the inn.

  17. #4997
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    16,924
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It's not incositent at all we never see her take a blow before that point let alone a 2 by 4 to the back of the head.
    ITs unbelievable how far can you go with this, without laughing with what you said.

    Thhe entire seris showing he was stronger and more resistant to other elves, by one shoting the troll, by climbing the mountain better than everyone, without being cold, without getting tired.

    And it comes a fucking piece of wood and knock her would for good, Christ all mighty, and you come with "we never saw her being hit by a wood before" come on, that is desperate

    I mean it does tell us that it's further away then the town over and that they had more hidden tunnels to capture slaves which seemingly go pretty far given that black elf was exploring them the whole time his girl friend went back to town failed to convince any one fought and orc and then brought the orc head to the inn.
    Yeah, everything is nonsensical

    Oh man, don't bring that orc scene where she cut his head, what an awful and inconsistent scene

  18. #4998
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    My dude, she spelled out, "you save us from certain death", its was 100% suicide and she knew
    Again, that doesn't follow logically.

    Suicide means WANTING to die. Just being in a situation where you'll die UNLESS someone saves you doesn't mean you got into that situation with the INTENTION of dying.

    It's not suicide unless you intended to die. It might be reckless, it might be stupid, it might be any number of things; but it's not suicide unless you do it with the goal of death in mind.

    She likely knew that the odds of her surviving were very slim. That doesn't mean she wanted to die. It only means she was willing to take a chance. Even a very small chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And a key part of maintaining verisimilitude is having a consistent internal logic to the fiction
    As I said, that's a different thing. Realism is about how well something conforms to the rules of reality; consistency is how well it follows its own rules. Those are not the same thing, and can't be treated the same. And it's ESPECIALLY problematic when the two mix, i.e. when people bring in realism to square off against consistency. Both arguments have merit on their own, but it becomes extremely tricky when you try to cross from one into the other. And people need to keep that very much in mind when making their arguments.

  19. #4999
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It's not incositent at all we never see her take a blow before that point let alone a 2 by 4 to the back of the head.
    If we take that scene as you say, then there's little reason she should be capable of swimming and gasping for air as soon as they reach the surface and be able to climb on the raft faster than Halbrand, enough to even help him back up.

    Like, even this explanation would have pretty significant inconsistency to it.

    It makes more sense if she wasn't actually unconscious underwater, and merely in a daze.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 10:43 PM.

  20. #5000
    Didn't Frodo fall into the Dead Marshes not in control of his faculties? He wasn't unconscious, but he was certainly bedazzled or hypnotized and didn't take a breath as he fell in.

    He was under for more than 10 seconds, and was fine. I don't remember anyone having to pump water out of him.

    This is all just......storytelling license. Getting caught up in such pedantic mundaneness is a sign of one of two things, imo: 1) a desire to shit on the property at hand for quite normal storytelling, or 2) an unimaginative person whose suspension of disbelief is so delicate as to not be happy with any fiction.

    (I know what the responses will be - "because he was conscious he could have accidentally or subconsciously taken a breath" or "he was pulled out by Gollum quicker" or some such other pedantic quibbling over the difference in details.)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •