1. #5041
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    The Silvan realm was always on the other side of the Misty Mountains, home to Khazad Dhum. They were never directly under the Noldor of Linden because they never went to Valinor in the first place. So if anything, they would not be under Noldor command and they would return to the Woodland realm not Linden. But beyond that, how is it that no traveler, trader or other people would notice that these villages are now destroyed and the populations missing. All to drag out another set of mysteries that really aren't mysteries and slow down the story even more instead of just getting on with it.
    Silvan mixed with others in the Second Age because of refugees from Beleriand. Those refugees even ended up eventually becoming leaders or "high up" because they mixed and even brought "normal" elven language back to the group. It doesn't really break the lore for a watchpost to have all Silvan elves. Even if it is just a small group that answers to the High King. As for traders or other people noticing it is simple. They aren't many. It has only been a few weeks at most and the Orcs could be killing others. We don't know where on the routes the watchpost is located.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-17 at 01:51 PM.
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  2. #5042
    Pit Lord rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Still trying to figure out where those other Silvan elves are, now that the ones who were watching the town got captured. Surely the rest of the Silvan realm would be aware of this by now and be sending reinforcements.......

    But of course that awesome writing has set it up where the Silvan Elves are under the control of Linden, with Gil Galad telling them to abandon the watch. And conveniently it is just at this time that they get captured, implying this would be the reason nobody would notice the arrival of Orcs and the destruction of villages and Elven outposts. Not only is it so obviously an example of the writers pen, but also breaks even more of the lore in the process. The Silvan realm was always on the other side of the Misty Mountains, home to Khazad Dhum. They were never directly under the Noldor of Linden because they never went to Valinor in the first place. So if anything, they would not be under Noldor command and they would return to the Woodland realm not Linden. But beyond that, how is it that no traveler, trader or other people would notice that these villages are now destroyed and the populations missing. All to drag out another set of mysteries that really aren't mysteries and slow down the story even more instead of just getting on with it.
    fun fact, in the second age the silvan faction ceases to exist, so i have no fucking clue why these amateur show runners are using this as a faction in the show to begin with.

  3. #5043
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    fun fact, in the second age the silvan faction ceases to exist, so i have no fucking clue why these amateur show runners are using this as a faction in the show to begin with.
    Because they still exist? The Sindar essentially became the ruling class of the group but the Silvan still existed.
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  4. #5044
    Quote Originally Posted by druchii5 View Post
    In the latest episode, I've mostly been confused by Arondir's arc (not the character himself). If Adar--seemingly the leader of the Orcs in the Southlands--let Arondir go to deliver a message, then why are the Orcs chasing him? Their leader released him...
    Or maybe the orcs were chasing someone else. the kid, with the sword pummel.

  5. #5045
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Silvan mixed with others in the Second Age because of refugees from Beleriand. Those refugees even ended up eventually becoming leaders or "high up" because they mixed and even brought "normal" elven language back to the group. It doesn't really break the lore for a watchpost to have all Silvan elves. Even if it is just a small group that answers to the High King. As for traders or other people noticing it is simple. They aren't many. It has only been a few weeks at most and the Orcs could be killing others. We don't know where on the routes the watchpost is located.
    The Silvans had their own ruler and were not taking orders from Linden. If they were going to introduce Silvan Elves into the show then they should have shown that they had their own king and ruler just as they did in all over versions of this story. Meaning, the only reason for this scenario is to create a situation of a small number of Elves get captured and nobody notices. Otherwise, if they were sent there to watch over the South Landers, then there should be lines of communications at the bare minimum, with the larger body of Elves being canonically close by in the Anduin realm on the other side of the Misty Mountains. Mordor is also on the same side of the Misty Mountains to the South East of the Anduin Having them under the command of Linden just makes it a larger distance to travel for information or news on the status of these soldiers which makes no sense. What is the point of having this outpost if they cannot get news of an attack back to the Elves in time for them to do something?

  6. #5046
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Otherwise, if they were sent there to watch over the South Landers, then there should be lines of communications at the bare minimum, with the larger body of Elves being canonically close by in the Anduin realm on the other side of the Misty Mountains.
    Who says there isn't help coming? It isn't the modern world where they can just shoot out a text that says they need help. We know from the trailers that there are scenes fighting orcs. We haven't seen the rest of the season to know what does or does not come. Also what is to say that they are not a group sent by the Silvan to help keep watch for the forces of dark? If the Silvan took in refuges from the last conflict don't you think that is something they would be interested in doing?

    All you are doing is nitpicking because you don't like the show when the stuff you keep attacking is only a problem if you look to make it one.
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  7. #5047
    Quote Originally Posted by druchii5 View Post
    In the latest episode, I've mostly been confused by Arondir's arc (not the character himself). If Adar--seemingly the leader of the Orcs in the Southlands--let Arondir go to deliver a message, then why are the Orcs chasing him? Their leader released him...
    The show seemed to make clear that the orcs were looking for something in particular, which appears to have been the sword hilt. A lot of "WE FOUND IT" happening around the sword, and now the kid has it. Arondir helped the kid. Therefore, the orcs aren't necessarily chasing Arondir but Theo.

  8. #5048
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Who says there isn't help coming? It isn't the modern world where they can just shoot out a text that says they need help. We know from the trailers that there are scenes fighting orcs. We haven't seen the rest of the season to know what does or does not come. Also what is to say that they are not a group sent by the Silvan to help keep watch for the forces of dark? If the Silvan took in refuges from the last conflict don't you think that is something they would be interested in doing?

    All you are doing is nitpicking because you don't like the show when the stuff you keep attacking is only a problem if you look to make it one.
    It is writing. What is the point of having a watchtower if there is no way to signal an alert to get help in case something happens? That isn't even a nitpick. In older eras, such things would have had runners, scouts, messengers, carrier pigeons, fire signals or something to notify people on short notice. So all we have here is just a couple elves and a tower. Thats it. No fort nearby or other kind of Elven encampment or settlement. Typically when Elves wanted to defend an area they would make a settlement with towers and battlements nearby, not just a tower by itself.

  9. #5049
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    It is writing. What is the point of having a watchtower if there is no way to signal an alert to get help in case something happens?
    They were ordered to withdraw so they were most likely captured as they were withdrawing. So there was nothing to signal or the orcs captured the "pigeons, runners, etc" in the process. You are creating an issue where none exists. We don't know what is nearby because we haven't been shown. The company might not yet be over due so nothing was out of the ordinary. You act as if the elves are required to be omnipotent and can never fail or be bested.
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  10. #5050
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They were ordered to withdraw so they were most likely captured as they were withdrawing. So there was nothing to signal or the orcs captured the "pigeons, runners, etc" in the process. You are creating an issue where none exists. We don't know what is nearby because we haven't been shown. The company might not yet be over due so nothing was out of the ordinary. You act as if the elves are required to be omnipotent and can never fail or be bested.
    That's the point though. The show is lacking understanding of how things actually work. To say 'well you don't know how things work here' is literally telling people to stop thinking about things that don'y make sense and stay blissfully ignorant of all the problems with the story and setting.

    There are a lot of problems with the script as though they never really thought it through from the POV of any of the characters. The video posted last page hit the mark, it seems the writers only really care about checking off boxes instead of making believable and relatable characters and world building.

    And not in a consistently bad way either, cu they do some things really well and then some other parts make no sense. Like how any character is treated 'under watch' is never believable. Disa says she's escorted Elrond out, yet we see Elrond without any escort and free to roam as he pleases. We see Miriel put Galadriel on close watch, yet she freely gets to the tower of Elros, and no one gets reprimanded for letting her slip past. Elendil even gets 'promoted' for his failure to watch her, how's that make any sense?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-17 at 05:12 PM.

  11. #5051
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That's the point though. The show is lacking understanding of how things actually work. To say 'well you don't know how things work here' is literally telling people to stop thinking about things that don'y make sense and stay blissfully ignorant of all the problems with the story and setting.
    No show is going to give every last detail of how things work. It is impossible to fit into a TV or Cinema medium. Even the Lord of the Rings film was pushing the limits of length and it left out details. We never saw how Gandalf got the reinforcements and the details of them traveling to Helm's Deep. We don't see every last detail of the Rohan amry going to Gondor. All the marching, camp making, etc. This is why it is nitpicking for the sake of it just so there is something to complain about.
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  12. #5052
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    No show is going to give every last detail of how things work. It is impossible to fit into a TV or Cinema medium. Even the Lord of the Rings film was pushing the limits of length and it left out details. We never saw how Gandalf got the reinforcements and the details of them traveling to Helm's Deep. We don't see every last detail of the Rohan amry going to Gondor. All the marching, camp making, etc. This is why it is nitpicking for the sake of it just so there is something to complain about.
    Yeah but we're not talking about other shows. We're talking about this one.

    And we're not talking about what details need to be ironed out completely, it's about what makes sense on a very fundamental level. If the world doesn't make sense it doesn't come across as feeling authentic. And I think very specific examples are being made here, so there's no reason for you to compare it to something else like travelling to Helms Deep, which no one here is actually criticizing here. I think InfiniteCharger's Watchtower example is very apt, because we see the Elves keeping watch over the Southlands but now when shit's hit the fan they seem unable to do anything about it, and we're not shown how they're actually going to react at all. That's a huge difference to Helms Deep where the King literally declares going there, and we have Gandalf explain the situation and why he thinks it's a bad idea, and with him going off to do something about it. Where do we have any indication that other Elves are doing anything about the influx of refugees? Where do we see any other Elves doing anything at all really?

    That you have personal low standards and don't think of such things doesn't excuse the problems that exist in this show.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-17 at 05:30 PM.

  13. #5053
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yeah but we're not talking about other shows. We're talking about this one.
    Duh. The point is that not every show does it so holding this show to a different standard is silly. It is creating an issue just to complain about it. On a fundamental level it makes sense that elves from a remote outpost could be captured as they withdraw and not have the wider world be immediately aware. The refugees only went to the abandoned watch tower. The show makes it a point to tell us that only a few other villages made it out of the area.

    Why do other elves need to know that villagers are evacuating? How would they even know when the elves that would notify them got captured? Why can't they be responding "off-screen"?
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-17 at 05:43 PM.
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  14. #5054
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Duh. The point is that not every show does it so holding this show to a different standard is silly.
    Again, what the fuck are you even talking about if you're not talking about this show? Why even bother responding if you're not gonna talk about the topic at hand? Stop with this whataboutism, dude. Like, you're literally not saying anything worth discussing here.

    Why do other elves need to know that villagers are evacuating? How would they even know when the elves that would notify them got captured? Why can't they be responding "off-screen"?
    Because it's bad writing and poor way of conveying information that the audience should have to understand what's actually going on.

    Can you actually tell me what's going on at the watchtower and what the plans are other than them literally starving? No, you wouldn't be able to, because the show hasn't set anything up for the audience to draw any reasonable conclusion.

    The way the show is set up so far it's gonna be an Orc raid on the Watchtower, and it's probably going to be a mini Helmsdeep situation. And no one knows if there are going to be reinforcements because nothing in the story has actually set up where and what those reinforcements would be. Galadriel and the Numenoreans are still super far away at this point in time, nowhere near the Southlands. No other reinforcements are established in the show, what other military power is even in the area? Some Elf fortress that they never showed us of?

    The reason why this is pointed out is because the show is lacking any proper setup for reinforcements to come, so none should be expected if we're going by the show. Helms Deep in LOTR was a completely different situation since the Riders of Rohan were set up to be cavalry that was roaming the countryside and it made complete sense to have Gandalf to seek them out. That was already set up in the narrative. Here, we have nothing of the sort having been set up. Arondir's story is completely self-contained to the troops at the Watchtower and having no other known reinforcements in the area, and it would be a failing of the narrative if they intend to have a deus ex machina solution to the story involving troops we haven't seen in the area before.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-17 at 06:16 PM.

  15. #5055
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Again, what the fuck are you even talking about if you're not talking about this show?
    I am talking about this show as I indicated when I explained what my point is. Why do you continue to respond if you are just going to blather rather than understand the topic? It isn't what aboutism to ask why there is a double standard when it comes to this show and not others. Why things are only bad when this show does it but not others. Why a 1-hour show or 3-hour movie are expected to showcase every last detail of a story in order for it to no longer be called bad.

    Because it's bad writing and poor way of conveying information that the audience should have to understand what's actually going on.
    Elves coming to the rescue is not needed to understand anything. They didn't have a plan behind get to a safer location. Again you indicate how silly the objections are that you don't know the entire story so therefore it is bad. Can't you watch and find out? Why is it that you need to know the exact plan and every last detail in order for it to be good writing? Lmao. This again shows how much bias those that dislike the show use to find any excuse to further that dislike. You are essentially complaining that chapter 1 of the book doesn't tell you the last chapter and everything in-between. So the book is bad.
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  16. #5056
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Four episodes in and I've already lost interest.

  17. #5057
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jshadowhunter View Post
    Dey tuk o'r jobs!
    The fact that they did a Trump rally scene is cringe as fuck. Especially when you know, elves don't tend to venture out into the realm of men very much in Middle Earth.

  18. #5058
    Stood in the Fire Krimzin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Four episodes in and I've already lost interest.
    I truly appreciate your in depth views on the show. It shows true insight of more than just the story. Your analysis of the series after such a huge time investment shows true dedication and perseverance. If you attack life with the same studious determination it would not surprise me in the least to find out you were a credit to your parents and not a cave dweller, like most assume you are. Thank you again.
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  19. #5059
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    The fact that they did a Trump rally scene is cringe as fuck. Especially when you know, elves don't tend to venture out into the realm of men very much in Middle Earth.
    It's weird, because it can be unintended. However, due to the marketing they had, it's very hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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  20. #5060
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I am talking about this show as I indicated when I explained what my point is. Why do you continue to respond if you are just going to blather rather than understand the topic? It isn't what aboutism to ask why there is a double standard when it comes to this show and not others. Why things are only bad when this show does it but not others. Why a 1-hour show or 3-hour movie are expected to showcase every last detail of a story in order for it to no longer be called bad.
    If your point is 'not every show does it' then you're not actually talking about this show, you're talking about other shows. And no one here is holding this to the standard of other shows, we're literally pointing at examples within the show and criticizing how they don't make sense or lack information to draw any reasonable expectations for what is to come. All we know is that the Orcs are going to attack the watchtower, and everything else is 'whatever'.

    It isn't what aboutism to ask why there is a double standard when it comes to this show and not others.
    What other shows are we talking about? There is no double standard because we're literally talking about THIS show. What don't you understand?

    Can't you watch and find out?
    Yes, I can watch and find out. And I can point out how poorly this show is unraveling its plot while I'm watching it. These criticisms are all based on what we're getting from the show and what little information we have to work with moving forward.

    Just as an example, I criticized how pointless it was to have Galadriel stranded in the middle of the ocean when there are far better outcomes to her plot that don't involve her being stranded at sea, and how it doesn't really make sense why she's there to begin with. Ssomeone pointed out that she's teased to go to Numenor, and then the whole plot made sense from there on. But not through a natural progression of the narrative, rather a 'checkbox' that the writers had to fulfill to put Galadriel in a situation that brings her to Numenor. And it happens to be in the most convoluted way possible, something I will still point out in retrospect to the 4 episodes we have so far. It's practically senseless considering the only reason she's alive is because she has plot armor allowing her to be lucky enough to be picked up by Numenoreans who happened to break their 'No Elves in Numenor' rule to allow her to be there. Understand that 'watching and find out' doesn't resolve any of the nonsense.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-17 at 06:54 PM.

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