1. #5061
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    So, like I said, this is more about money more than anything specifically that Tolkien wanted/did not want.
    Yet Tolkien still sold the rights to his works so the things he didn't want would take place. Strange, right? You are using that as a brick wall when in reality it is an open gate. Tolkien enabled these things when he was alive and Amazon is not the first to have created their own version of Tolkien's work. Every work has been a derivative of Tolkien. They all change stuff or create their own lore. They aren't bad because of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Good Omens was also well received.
    It is even getting a second season based on "new" work. One author is dead and one is still alive so it will be based on unreleased work finished by the remaining author.
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  2. #5062
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And yet a criticism of House of the Dragons is that the young actors are being replaced because there are time skips and just a lot happening "off screen" because of those skips. Could Amazon have done it better? Maybe but there are real downsides to having a lot of time skips.
    The average person can generally get skips with a character from a kid to middle age about early 20s. If you start going to 100s or 1000s of years they can not grasp that concept. Jumping from 20 AD to 2000 AD in a story you lose people. Too much math figuring and too many WHAT HAPPENS in 1980 years time that they could not tell us. More of our perception of a time things than anything else.

  3. #5063
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Yet Tolkien still sold the rights to his works so the things he didn't want would take place. Strange, right? You are using that as a brick wall when in reality it is an open gate. Tolkien enabled these things when he was alive and Amazon is not the first to have created their own version of Tolkien's work. Every work has been a derivative of Tolkien. They all change stuff or create their own lore. They aren't bad because of that.
    Granted. Doesn't change that he is dead and the Tolkien Estate were the ones that went out to actively shop a television series to studios based on the appendices. So in reality, it wasn't Amazon that was pushing for this vs the Tolkien estate, which means they just wanted money and don't really care about the quality of the resulting work. The actual issue with the films is that most studios see these as very risky to make as the PJ movies pretty much covered the main books and now they are left with making up smaller stories set either in or around what was written without contradicting it. And as you can see, the only thing they have come up with so far is an animated film.

    So in pushing this series on studios, they are only basically green lighting a potentially horrible story that is obviously not canon, which even casual viewers will likely notice, just to keep the 'brand' in the public eye and generate some cash. I don't blame Amazon for trying to make a new series seeing that the rights were available, but I do blame them for not seeing that they got left holding the bag by the Tolkien estate for nothing but a very expensive albatross. They are required to make 5 seasons as part of the deal for these rights and no matter if this show is successful or not Amazon has to continue pumping money into it. And because they don't actually have the rights to tell an actual faithful 2nd age story, they are now stuck with making up a lot of stuff from scratch and taking on all the risk if these stories aren't popular with the audience. The fact that they were dumb and didn't just take one part of the 2nd age, such as the fall of eregion and the creation of the rings of power and just do 5 seasons of that, is perfectly on them. That would been very much a competitor to game of thrones as the deception, intrigue and conflict is very much in line with what you see in game of thrones. But they went the stupid route and are trying to take 3000+ years of history and compress it into a few years. That is on them.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-15 at 12:49 PM.

  4. #5064
    Warchief rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Hmm can’t say I know enough about the Irish to know what to look for in the case of the hobbits.

    The Scottish accent bit seems a bit odd though, dwarfs are obviously scot bashed but complaining just about the accent when they otherwise didn’t really play into actual Scottish stereotypes is weird to me.
    since both yourself and rhorle are unable to identify why this is such a big deal, i'll try to explain for you.

    several months ago ago lindsey weber, the chief showrunner for this project came out with a now infamous statement "we wanted this show to reflect what the real world looks like", or to that effect, this translates to them (the showrunners/writers/producers) seeing the irish as dirty, ragtag peoples with poor personal hygiene standards, not just that, but having an Englishman impersonating an irish person is a cardinal sin in that part of the world due to the sheer amount of discrimination the English historically put the irish people through, and because the showrunners couldn't give a suitable answer to the questions posed, it's being investigated as cultural appropriation and makes them look like absolute scum, which i can't say i would bother to contradict.

    i would use an analogy to explain this using american stereotypes but frankly i'm not in a state to bother right now, if you want to understand why this is an issue, do your own research on the matter to understand why this is such a clusterfuck, and why this is yet another example of just how pathetic an amateur these writers are.


  5. #5065
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Good Omens was also well received.
    Ya but he was talking about race swapping and how they mostly target series with dead authors,haven’t watched omens personally so don’t know if that’s something that happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    since both yourself and rhorle are unable to identify why this is such a big deal, i'll try to explain for you.
    I get why it would be a big deal the hobbits bloody suck so saying any group is like them would also reflect very poorly on that group.

    What I don’t know is if it’s a founded claim to say the hobbits are like the Irish or if people are just being dramatic like when morons say Tolkiens orcs are suppose to be black people or something else dumb.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #5066
    Not gonna lie the show is beautiful. Being in LOTR world is scratching my fantasy itch because HoTD is not scratching it. That show feels more political (meaning power struggles not ideology) than what to me a fantasy show should be like going on an adventure.

    I will say I'm pleased with the show so far. The only thing I wish is that the Tolkien estate would get over itself and just sell the full rights at this point because the more lore I read and watch videos on--The First Age is where it's at. That's what I want. I want a full on Morgoth show.

  7. #5067
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    And as you can see, the only thing they have come up with so far is an animated film.
    The animated films pre-date the jackson works. I'm not even sure if you understand what point you are making other to ramble and rant about anything Tolkien. They didn't push a series in order to do a bad job. That is nonsense and you should be able to realize how nonsense that is. It is also strange how you are now blaming the Tolkien estate and that it is impossible to tell a good story with the "left overs" of tolkiens work. It also contradicts the later part of your post where you give an example of how Amazon could have been a competitor game of thrones. Which is it Amazon had no choice but to do the bad show forced on them or they could have had the choice to focus on something else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    this translates to them (the showrunners/writers/producers) seeing the irish as dirty, ragtag peoples with poor personal hygiene standards
    It does not though. If you are looking for racism then you will find it. It isn't a cultural appropriation. You are just showing how manufactured the outrage is. It is strange how some people criticize the show for having to clean of costumes while it is also a bad thing when costumes are "dirty" as well.
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  8. #5068
    The next episode needs to get its shit together. The writing in the last one was bad.

  9. #5069
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The animated films pre-date the jackson works. I'm not even sure if you understand what point you are making other to ramble and rant about anything Tolkien. They didn't push a series in order to do a bad job. That is nonsense and you should be able to realize how nonsense that is. It is also strange how you are now blaming the Tolkien estate and that it is impossible to tell a good story with the "left overs" of tolkiens work. It also contradicts the later part of your post where you give an example of how Amazon could have been a competitor game of thrones. Which is it Amazon had no choice but to do the bad show forced on them or they could have had the choice to focus on something else?
    Producing entertainment product has a certain amount of risk. And this is the most expensive television series ever produced. Now if you are arguing that it is SMART to spend that much money on a product that only is seen as average at best by audiences then you are insane and there is no point even trying to discuss any thing further with you because you lack common sense. There is no magic to this. Either you spent all that money and get a return on investment, in the form of a very successful series, or you don't. Whether you like the show or not doesn't change the financial reality at play. And like I said, that also doesn't change the fact that the Tolkien Estate found a way to generate more cash for themselves, because new LOTR moves aren't going to be made any time soon, so they found a loophole to get some cash from a studio buying the rights and producing a multi season television series. Because the only money they get off those movies is as a percentage on the profits. That is just a fact.

    The rights that Tolkien sold were owned by the Saul Zaentz company and those rights have now been sold to the Embracer group. Those rights were not owned by the Tolkien Estate. So the Tolkien Estate, in selling these limited TV rights, directly received the money for the purchase of those rights and any potential profits based on the terms of the contract.... That is totally separate from the rights already purchased from Tolkien long ago. That is the part you are probably missing. So it is ultimately the Tolkien society that pushed this deal in order to produce something that is very risky for any studio willing to take it on. And because they have so much leeway in telling the story there is no reason they couldn't have used these 5 seasons to tell a smaller story in the 2nd age than compressing the time line to tell all those events in a single lifetime. And yes, I still see that as stupid, because not only is that going to produce a potentially very badly convoluted and disjointed story far different from the books, but limits how deep you can actually go on any of these stories.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-15 at 02:24 PM.

  10. #5070
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Now if you are arguing that it is SMART to spend that much money on a product that only is seen as average at best by audiences then you are insane and there is no point even trying to discuss any thing further with you because you lack common sense.
    Can you point out where I said that? Of course it is a fact that Tolkien, Warner Brothers, SZC, Embracer and anyone else who has rights to Tolkien's work are trying to make money. Everyone who has released a lord of the rings product has wanted to make money off of Tolkien's work. This is again proof that you don't know what point you are trying to make as you are inventing things and rambling.
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  11. #5071
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The animated films pre-date the jackson works. I'm not even sure if you understand what point you are making other to ramble and rant about anything Tolkien. They didn't push a series in order to do a bad job. That is nonsense and you should be able to realize how nonsense that is. It is also strange how you are now blaming the Tolkien estate and that it is impossible to tell a good story with the "left overs" of tolkiens work. It also contradicts the later part of your post where you give an example of how Amazon could have been a competitor game of thrones. Which is it Amazon had no choice but to do the bad show forced on them or they could have had the choice to focus on something else?

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    It does not though. If you are looking for racism then you will find it. It isn't a cultural appropriation. You are just showing how manufactured the outrage is. It is strange how some people criticize the show for having to clean of costumes while it is also a bad thing when costumes are "dirty" as well.
    As someone that moved fromthe island of Ireland only a year or two ago, it’s close enough to how a lot in the country lives. Especially “Irish travellers”. And from the Republic of Ireland.

  12. #5072
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Producing entertainment product has a certain amount of risk. And this is the most expensive television series ever produced. Now if you are arguing that it is SMART to spend that much money on a product that only is seen as average at best by audiences then you are insane and there is no point even trying to discuss any thing further with you because you lack common sense.
    It got them 25 million viewers for the first episode (vs 10 million viewers for the House of the Dragon show). How many of those do you think care about Tolkien and being true to the source? In IMDB, the show has a very decent median score of 8, and if you cut off the top & bottom notes, it is clearly enjoyed by quite a few people. And even if it's not the best thing ever since sliced bread, ultimately it's all about sub drawing power for Amazon, which seems enormous - at the moment they are easily beating HBOs rival fantasy show. So all in all, it doesn't look bad at all for Amazon. So yeah, it can be smart to put a lot of money into an average product if it creates enough publicity to make the money elsewhere.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-09-15 at 02:49 PM.

  13. #5073
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Can you point out where I said that? Of course it is a fact that Tolkien, Warner Brothers, SZC, Embracer and anyone else who has rights to Tolkien's work are trying to make money. Everyone who has released a lord of the rings product has wanted to make money off of Tolkien's work. This is again proof that you don't know what point you are trying to make as you are inventing things and rambling.
    So the point was specifically how THIS series came about and the fact that it starts with the Tolkien Estate itself. It is about THEM making money from whatever rights were left over and not about any other entity who already owns any other rights, which was the Saul Zaence corporation, who hasn't made any films since LOTR and the Hobbit. And now those rights were sold, because it is risky to make new movies with no actual books that audiences are familiar with to go by.

    Anyway, you obviously aren't interested in discussing that so lets just move along.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    It got them 25 million viewers for the first episode (vs 10 million viewers for the House of the Dragon show). How many of those do you think care about Tolkien and being true to the source? In IMDB, the show has a very decent median score of 8, and if you cut off the top & bottom notes, it is clearly enjoyed by quite a few people. And even if it's not the best thing ever since sliced bread, ultimately it's all about sub drawing power for Amazon, which seems enormous - at the moment they are easily beating HBOs rival fantasy show. So all in all, it doesn't look bad at all for Amazon. So yeah, it can be smart to put a lot of money into an average product if it creates enough publicity to make the money elsewhere.
    I don't know and that really wasn't the point. Do you think spending $1 billion dollars is worth it for 25 million viewers? Amazon only knows the actual facts and the point stands regardless. People sitting here trying to argue that somehow the financials of this series makes sense just to justify its existence is kind of silly. The only way to justify that is to show how Amazon is getting a return on that investment and I would assume that means new subcribers to Amazon prime. I don't know how on earth they are even going to make money on a $1 billion series regardless if it is based on Tolkien or something else. It is financial suicide in my book. And we are only talking about 1 season so far costing upwards of $1 billion dollars.

    At the end of the day this is all about whether any studio can take the notes and sketches and make something around the edges of LOTR and the Hobbit that can guarantee a large profit either in film or television. Because producing either one is going to be expensive and the risk of doing it comes from the lack of complete books with well known characters to fall back on. And no matter what, because of the fame and popularity of Tolkien and his prestige as a writer and author, anything they produce is going to be compared against him and his work.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-15 at 03:07 PM.

  14. #5074
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    So the point was specifically how THIS series came about and the fact that it starts with the Tolkien Estate itself.
    Right. You are yelling at the wind. Your point has nothing to do with what we were originally discussing nor is it something that has been in doubt in the discussion we were having.
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  15. #5075
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    I don't know and that really wasn't the point. Do you think spending $1 billion dollars is worth it for 25 million viewers? Amazon only knows the actual facts and the point stands regardless. People sitting here trying to argue that somehow the financials of this series makes sense just to justify its existence is kind of silly. The only way to justify that is to show how Amazon is getting a return on that investment and I would assume that means new subcribers to Amazon prime. I don't know how on earth they are even going to make money on a $1 billion series regardless if it is based on Tolkien or something else. It is financial suicide in my book. And we are only talking about 1 season so far costing upwards of $1 billion dollars.
    Where are you getting those figures from? I've heard of $57 million per episode, which is considerably less than $1 billion for the whole season. Also, 25 million viewers was for the first 24 hours. Total figure has to be bigger than that (at least 25.000.001, because I didn't watch it in the first 24 hours :P). Obviously some of those people were already subbed, but some - like me - subbed just now for the show (though I will also check out other things while being at it). And because I was offered a very generous yearly sub, I did just that. So make some math and you will see that it's not out of the realm of possibility to at least make even for the show - and make money in the long run if some of the people who subbed just now stay for longer. No other show before this one gave Amazon Prime Video so much publicity, not even close.

  16. #5076
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Do you think spending $1 billion dollars is worth it for 25 million viewers?
    ~

    $1billion is the estimate for the whole series, 5 seasons.

    First season will be the most expensive one though, with the added cost of sets, costumes, and actually building everything. Cost will be reduced (in comparison) in the next seasons.

  17. #5077
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Saw the third! It´s really a nice show That´s all there is to say, really. Either you like it or you don´t.

    I find the cast to be rather absurd, with the whole diversity thing. It is super fake and inacurate to the lore, but whatever, I can get over that although I still find itto be quite racist... I mean, if they wanted integrity, then why didn´t they add a character of each cultural background? But again, whatever, the show itself is good. That´s all I care about.

  18. #5078
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    It got them 25 million viewers for the first episode (vs 10 million viewers for the House of the Dragon show). How many of those do you think care about Tolkien and being true to the source? In IMDB, the show has a very decent median score of 8, and if you cut off the top & bottom notes, it is clearly enjoyed by quite a few people. And even if it's not the best thing ever since sliced bread, ultimately it's all about sub drawing power for Amazon, which seems enormous - at the moment they are easily beating HBOs rival fantasy show. So all in all, it doesn't look bad at all for Amazon. So yeah, it can be smart to put a lot of money into an average product if it creates enough publicity to make the money elsewhere.
    I mean you do realize that the 25 million "viewers" wasn't just through the amazon prime website, and they used on odd term for it, like clicks or something? The only independent data we have gotten was samba TV which had there numbers not being near as impressive. I won't say the show got no views, but it wasn't the blow out, and the fact amazon hasn't posted any numbers since then makes me think they haven't been hitting the marks they want.

    You have to keep in mind this show is mind staggeringly expensive, it was going to be hard to come out even no matter what, so if it hits good numbers that will still be a good size loss (yes amazon can eat that loss, but for how long will it/Bezos be willing to).

    Also IMDB is owned by amazon, and has been... curating reviews, with scores even as high as 5/10 being removed if it used terms they didn't like. Like I know people love to say review bomb, but it works both ways and every other review site I have seen for the show has it at best around a 5/10 without a lot hovering in the 3-4 range.

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    ~

    $1billion is the estimate for the whole series, 5 seasons.

    First season will be the most expensive one though, with the added cost of sets, costumes, and actually building everything. Cost will be reduced (in comparison) in the next seasons.
    Originally, but pretty sure with the move from New Zealand to England that price is going to go up a bit more now, with the supposedly 2 year delay between seasons costing more. Wouldn't be surprised if inflation + moving + delays pushed the price to 1.1 or even 1.2 billion.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-09-15 at 04:02 PM.
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    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  19. #5079
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    I mean you do realize that the 25 million "viewers" wasn't just through the amazon prime website, and they used on odd term for it, like clicks or something?
    "25 million global viewers in the first 24 hours. Thank you for making #TheRingsOfPower the most watched series premiere on @PrimeVideo" https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/stat...69493201686528

    Also IMDB was only curating reviews which are different from ratings. There are over 36,000 1 star ratings on IMDB currently. They currently have 1/10 reviews. They were countering "bombing" with reviews and not trying to censor bad ratings and reviews. Amazon recently adopted a similar thing with their prime video reviews where they don't publish any until 3 days after launch in an effort to stop initial bombs.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  20. #5080
    Mechagnome Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    How many of those do you think care about Tolkien and being true to the source?
    The true irony being that not even J.R.R. Tolkien would care how accurate it is to what he wrote - it was only his estate that was uptight. Not only was he inconsistent within his own constant revisions that made large swathes of his canon incongruous, but his ultimate goal was to create a mythology. That includes retellings of that mythology, complete with changes, additions, omissions, and embellishments.

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