1. #5081
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Almost as if the Elves are being duped by a lord of gifts? There is a clear subtext that the elves are pulling back from their "Great watch for evil" that they have been doing. So what if they are being influenced? There is no contradiction of the story. Nothing says that others have not escaped. This isn't a period of months gone by with no word of the outside world. You do realize that they don't have the internet in middle-earth, right?

    Also Arondir heard a hint of the orcs in the first episode but he didn't report it. So clearly the elves weren't all that interested in watching after so long. Why is it a contradiction to the story that they haven't lost interest? Did you not pay attention to the first episode where it explained that pretty much only Galadriel thought there was still a threat? Even Tolkien did the same with the Hobbit right? Where Sauron was gone for so long that many didn't consider him a threat any longer?

    The "Big gash in the forest" also didn't come until later. Remember Arondir had to chase them through tunnels under the village. They clearly decided to come out into the open likely the same time the elves were captured or withdrawing. Again maybe they were in on the plot because of Sauron in his elven disguise influencing the politics of the time? Nah it must all be BS and contradictions, right? Take off the lens of dislike and think a little about the story being told rather then being so eager to nitpick everything to death.
    Then that's a contrived narrative where no one is earning their accomplishments.

    The big bad is literally 'winning' because the good guys are incompetent. And sadly that is a theme carried through the show so far, where the characters live in various social structures that are all equally incompetent while the main characters are the only ones who seem to be doing anything about the rising evil. And sadly, even they are failing their way forward with plot conveniences moving them all forward.

  2. #5082
    Ep4 is probably the best episode so far. I actually found myself enjoying it, even if had some odd writing and dialogue here and there.

    Elrond Plot: Overall decent. I feel like Celebrimbor's scene was thrown in to give him screen time. The tower's made ridiculous progress given how it feels like every other story has progressed like... a day or two. Similarly, Elrond teleports back and forth to the dwarves made me almost wonder if they were flashing back to before he returned. Overall I like him and I like the dwarves though. This would probably feel better if every other story wasn't moving substantially slower.

    Galadriel Plot: I don't feel like Numenor's stance with the elves is portrayed well, nor does the negotiation to get their help feel satisfying. Galadriel still doesn't feel like someone I want to root for. Effectively she gets saved via tree. Also somehow putting the 4 (5?) guards into the jail cell off screen got a laugh and not in a good way. Halbrand is still Sauron. Now that Galadriel's leaving the island, I wonder if things will become more enjoyable, as they seemed to have some decent characters there.

    Arondir Plot: This place feels really awkwardly written. This feels like it should be the easiest plot to write, but feels off. The elves are apparently blind and get captured off screen, then the villages all flee to the tower the elves were in, but don't bring their food and don't seem to want to go back to get their food. Arondir also pulls some weapons out of nowhere, didn't look like he got them from orcs, but it was hard to see. Orcs and sunlight continue to be inconsistently portrayed.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Did you not pay attention to the first episode where it explained that pretty much only Galadriel thought there was still a threat? Even Tolkien did the same with the Hobbit right? Where Sauron was gone for so long that many didn't consider him a threat any longer?
    Yeah it worked there cause it was clear Sauron was mostly dead, and the PJ movies reduced him to like an eye in a tower.

    Sauron's status in this show is much more murkier. We're not shown him being 'killed' in the opening, and have every reason to believe he's still around and active, but everyone but Galadriel is an idiot.
    Last edited by Myradin; 2022-09-18 at 02:47 AM.

  3. #5083
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,426
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The big bad is literally 'winning' because the good guys are incompetent.
    Welcome to the Second Age as told by Tolkien. Where Sauron manipulated and out maneuvered the good guys and rose to power again.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #5084
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I've lost the will to live reading this whole post, so I'll just reply to this line and be done.

    Your victim complex is sorely misplaced here. In the last 2 months, I've been banned for probably half of that lol Grow a pair and stop whining. Complaining about moderation is the last pathetic straw in the whiners toolbox.
    You should be permaed by now, long since in fact along rhorle but they are people who get away with a lot more than they should.

  5. #5085
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Welcome to the Second Age as told by Tolkien. Where Sauron manipulated and out maneuvered the good guys and rose to power again.
    Yes, which actually involved Sauron manipulating events directly in the books. He's completely absent in the show.

    So far he's been shown winning without lifting a finger because the good guys are so incompetent. Great show eh?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-18 at 03:23 AM.

  6. #5086
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,426
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So far he's been shown winning without lifting a finger because the good guys are so incompetent. Great show so far eh?
    So you believe Sauron personally did everything in the Second Age? That he never had his servants act on his plans? It is strange how you know Sauron is behind it all yet still refuse to associate him with those actions on the show. Even if you knew nothing of the lore and the greater Tolkien stuff the show sets up Sauron as still out there and a threat. You can't be that blind to not get that, right?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #5087
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you believe Sauron personally did everything in the Second Age? That he never had his servants act on his plans? It is strange how you know Sauron is behind it all yet still refuse to associate him with those actions on the show. Even if you knew nothing of the lore and the greater Tolkien stuff the show sets up Sauron as still out there and a threat. You can't be that blind to not get that, right?
    No, and I didn't assert that he did everything himself. I said he was shown doing something himself and for that, he earns his status as a great deceiver and manipulator who orchestrated the creation of the Rings.

    So far the show has shown a rising evil with the good guys being incompetent and letting Evil slip through every contingency plan they had to find the last remnants of it. Sauron has had zero direct involvement in any of this.

    Watchtowers and Elf patrols in the Southlands? Worthless. Gil Galad sending commanders to find the last remnants of evil? Intentionally left unchecked by ignorance. I can't even say that evil outsmarted the good guys, because there's nothing that establishes anything the Elves or Humans having done anything smart in the first place.

    Like I said, this show is all about failure. And the main characters are literally written to fail upwards through a contrived narrative. Nothing feels earned.

    Sauron is supposed to be behind it all but all that's happened was built around a mark. We're halfway through the first season and he's not had his direct hand in anything so far. He could literally BE dead and the show wouldn't be any different, it'd just be about his minions carrying on his legacy and a bunch of people hoping he'd come back.

    If not for the Elrond and Dwarf scenes, I'd have very little reason to continue watching really. The rest sucks and is poorly written and poorly paced.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-18 at 04:20 AM.

  8. #5088
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So far the show has shown a rising evil with the good guys being incompetent and letting Evil slip through every contingency plan they had to find the last remnants of it. Sauron has had zero direct involvement in any of this.

    Watchtowers and Elf patrols in the Southlands? Worthless. Gil Galad sending commanders to find the last remnants of evil? Intentionally left unchecked by ignorance. I can't even say that evil outsmarted the good guys, because there's nothing that establishes anything the Elves or Humans having done anything smart in the first place.
    Yes, the elves are complacent and apathetic about an evil they think they already defeated. That's like...the whole point.

    Given what has been said/implied up to this point, we can assume that the watchtowers like the one Arondir was manning were as much to keep an eye on the Men who once served that evil as to protect against the evil itself. Hence the racial tensions.

    And I do hope you're not expecting to see Sauron at the height of his power by the end of the first fucking season... We might not even see him at all until much later.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-09-18 at 05:17 AM.

  9. #5089
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    18,950
    I still have to say how its hilarious that the showrunners think orcs are vampires, like they could not go out in the sun,d espise showing they did that plenty of times, in the very show

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    And that was my point: it is narrative convenience, AKA written that way on purpose. Not to mention no other humans or elves ever travel to this area and would notice a whole town missing? It is an absurd contradiction of the story itself: they were there to keep an eye out for something, but oh by the way they get withdrawn just at the same exact time they find something that somehow they didn't notice earlier..... Even though that "something" was a big gash in the forest where the Orcs were digging and the "thing" they were supposed to be watching for to begin with. It is just another example of characters acting dumb for narrative convenience to drag out this confrontation with the Orcs for absurd mysteries.

    Just to note the point I will offer a comparison for this show and based on the same lore..
    This is what pisses me off more about the show, there is so many shit like this that suck away all the fun the show could have.

    Like, how Not-Legolas had to be elt alive, because ~~reasons~~, just so he can save the kid later/tell a dumbass warning.

    Then you have everyone from the village leaving, but no one gets food, and the only reason is for the kid to get out, rly bad reason

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, which actually involved Sauron manipulating events directly in the books. He's completely absent in the show.

    So far he's been shown winning without lifting a finger because the good guys are so incompetent. Great show eh?
    Sauron left his mark in the bodies of his enemies, so their enemies find out his plans, massive bid dick move right there /s

  10. #5090
    Scarab Lord MCMLXXXII's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Delta swamp of the west
    Posts
    4,760
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    I still have to say how its hilarious that the showrunners think orcs are vampires, like they could not go out in the sun,d espise showing they did that plenty of times, in the very show
    They don't like the sunlight, it's not like they can go out in the sun, just not for a longer period. That's something Tolkien himself established.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Sauron left his mark in the bodies of his enemies, so their enemies find out his plans, massive bid dick move right there /s
    His minions or former followers could also leave those marks?

  11. #5091
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    I still have to say how its hilarious that the showrunners think orcs are vampires, like they could not go out in the sun,d espise showing they did that plenty of times, in the very show
    The only creatures actually disabled by sunlight are the trolls in The Hobbit; for the rest, Tolkien made it a central theme that most of the evil creatures in his lore hate the light and avoid it if they can, but can and will endure it if necessary. So while orcs may prefer to stay out of the sunlight and move about at night, they CAN and DO move around in sunlight if the situation calls for it. That's always been established lore, and explicitly features in books like The Lord of the Rings.

  12. #5092
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Once again for this thread, not you specifically, this post just shows a basic lack of understanding when it comes to typical character motivations shown in soooo much TV/film. She's not trying to commit suicide, she's trying all she can to actually do something to follow up on the fact she believes Sauron is still out there and is going to make his return. What else was she meant to do, just tread water for nobody knows how long and leave Middle Earth's denizens to suffer with a quippy line about how its "not my problem, I need to keep floating"?

    I dread catching up on the last few days of posts if this is where I'm starting lol I'm ready to ask again how many people have never actually read or seen any piece of media ever...

    - - - Updated - - -


    What a great start to a post...
    It was intentional. People usually turn off their brains after it

  13. #5093
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    18,950
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    They don't like the sunlight, it's not like they can go out in the sun, just not for a longer period. That's something Tolkien himself established.
    .Yeah, he did, my point is that the people doing he show don't, they show that the orcs burn in the sunlight like vampires, and thats BS

    Like, in the part where they were going o get the kid, they just stop going there, because the sun...despite being fully covered...despite the show showing how they can be fine covered or not.

    His minions or former followers could also leave those marks?
    Sauron left the mark of his plan in the Finrod(Galadriel brother) body, that shit makes no sense and its just to justify her journey, but they didn't knew how to do it in a good/clever way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    The only creatures actually disabled by sunlight are the trolls in The Hobbit; for the rest, Tolkien made it a central theme that most of the evil creatures in his lore hate the light and avoid it if they can, but can and will endure it if necessary. So while orcs may prefer to stay out of the sunlight and move about at night, they CAN and DO move around in sunlight if the situation calls for it. That's always been established lore, and explicitly features in books like The Lord of the Rings.
    Indeed, thats why im calling out the show for their BS.

    What is more baffling is that even if they made a new canon, they contradict themselves, lie showing orcs burning without the hood, but their arms/legs are just fine, they don't burn, and some burn differently and in that one scene, they didn't went to follow despite being covered

    I think they only hit the mark with their design, close to Azog from the hobbits, but everyone being pale white is kinda meh.

  14. #5094
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Yes, the elves are complacent and apathetic about an evil they think they already defeated. That's like...the whole point.

    Given what has been said/implied up to this point, we can assume that the watchtowers like the one Arondir was manning were as much to keep an eye on the Men who once served that evil as to protect against the evil itself. Hence the racial tensions.

    And I do hope you're not expecting to see Sauron at the height of his power by the end of the first fucking season... We might not even see him at all until much later.
    And that's a terrible premise for a TV series that shouldn't be adapted in this way if so.

    Know how people say certain things don't work for TV so the book needs to be changed? This would be one of those things. Having an enemy that is directly involved with the happenings that cause troubles for the main characters builds a connection with the main villain. Like even the first Harry Potter gets this right by actually having Voldemort appear and be the direct explanation for all the trouble Harry and co experience during their first year at Hogwarts. It's not just everyone bumbling into allowing evil to return, it's literally them being shown with plenty of precautions, and evil outsmarting their efforts.

    And sadly, this is something the book actually explains while the show isn't following it. For some reason the writers felt it would be smarter to make the villain a mystery to keep fans guessing which red herring character Sauron would be, and it fundamentally hurts the connection anyone has to an actual bad guy when done like this. This is not a murder mystery

    If Sauron isn't back yet be the season's end, then to be honest the evil should not even be detected as growing until they're good to unveil that he's directly manipulating this all. And right now the show has left it so ambiguous that it could be his return causing this, or it could be the result of the mark causing a plan to go through without his intervention at all, like a meme that goes viral well after the creator's died. And there's a big difference in whether this 'growing evil' feels earned or not.

    It's like trying to credit the AMC CEO for the recent rise in AMC stocks, as if he had anything to do with the short-trading and memestocks.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-18 at 09:14 AM.

  15. #5095


    Found this by random chance.
    Really liked his take and it mirrors what a lot has been said in this thread regarding to what people dislike.
    Explains why the biggest issue is the main characters, while the side characters are usually praised more.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-18 at 09:37 AM.
    Error 404 - Signature not found

  16. #5096
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Almost as if the Elves are being duped by a lord of gifts? There is a clear subtext that the elves are pulling back from their "Great watch for evil" that they have been doing. So what if they are being influenced? There is no contradiction of the story. Nothing says that others have not escaped. This isn't a period of months gone by with no word of the outside world. You do realize that they don't have the internet in middle-earth, right?
    That would be great but the lord of gifts is not present in this series yet. So this isn't even a logical explanation. The problem is they wrote it this way, not because of any lore reason. To even try and use some kind of lore reason for this when it is obviously narrative convenience is the problem. We don't even know if Annatar is going to even appear in this series.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Also Arondir heard a hint of the orcs in the first episode but he didn't report it. So clearly the elves weren't all that interested in watching after so long. Why is it a contradiction to the story that they haven't lost interest? Did you not pay attention to the first episode where it explained that pretty much only Galadriel thought there was still a threat? Even Tolkien did the same with the Hobbit right? Where Sauron was gone for so long that many didn't consider him a threat any longer?
    We are talking about a few Elves being in a town to watch for any potential sign of sauron and getting the call to withdraw, just at the same time that they <gasp> find actual evidence of Sauron and not only that get captured. And the only reason that sequence of events happens is because of writing not because it makes any sense in reality. Of course everything in fiction is based on writing, but the point is that the hand of the writer is not supposed to be obvious in doing things which don't fit in the world or are out of place.



    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The "Big gash in the forest" also didn't come until later. Remember Arondir had to chase them through tunnels under the village. They clearly decided to come out into the open likely the same time the elves were captured or withdrawing. Again maybe they were in on the plot because of Sauron in his elven disguise influencing the politics of the time? Nah it must all be BS and contradictions, right? Take off the lens of dislike and think a little about the story being told rather then being so eager to nitpick everything to death.
    Later based on what? How can you determine how much time it took to make that gash? That didn't appear over night and neither did those tunnels. You are trying to use logic to explain something that is a writing issue because that writing is not following logic. By logical reasoning that gash would have been visible long before the elves began withdrawing because the orcs have been working on it for a long time. Again, this "coincidence" of them finding this gash just as the Elves are withdrawing is purely written this way for narrative convenience not because it makes logical sense within the world itself. Which was the point. You haven't disproven it, you are just trying to find ways to explain it, rather than admitting obviously it happened that way because of writing and there is no real lore or logic to explain this otherwise.

  17. #5097
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Found this by random chance.
    I do believe that video was already brought up 5 pages ago

  18. #5098
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I do believe that video was already brought up 5 pages ago
    Oh, you are correct. Must've missed it / forgot about it My b.
    Error 404 - Signature not found

  19. #5099
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    18,950
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post


    Found this by random chance.
    Really liked his take and it mirrors what a lot has been said in this thread regarding to what people dislike.
    Explains why the biggest issue is the main characters, while the side characters are usually praised more.
    Yeah, everyone have more or less the same take, the nonsense and lack of care they had with the show, he actually picked things that i didn't, i guess i was so defeated at the end of the episode id didn't notice how he left his weapon and run like a moron, also, he looks old as a human, not rly an elf.

    Shadiversity is doing some reviews of the episodes that i think touches more on the writing said of the series

  20. #5100
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Shadiversity is doing some reviews of the episodes that i think touches more on the writing said of the series
    I enjoyed his trailer breakdown, mostly because of his medieval and weapon knowledge he focused on. Can't stand his reviews though way too much screaming for me to endure
    Error 404 - Signature not found

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •