Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Biomega]

This is my issue with most things that have established bases. Just don't. Don't try to get a new audience. Stick to the natural one that already exists. Make shit for them. It's still more than enough to be successful, especially if you don't fucking squander your money needlessly on every episode overpaying for everything. Elden Ring proved that.

That's a bit of a contradiction, though.

Elden Ring sold a lot more copies than Dark Souls precisely BECAUSE it tried (and succeeded) to get a new audience.

What you're talking about is a success story where the changes they made happened to hit a sweet spot. That doesn't mean they didn't make changes. Elden Ring is not just a Dark Souls reskin. It just means they made GOOD changes, or at the very least, they made changes conducive to attracting a bigger audience.

And that's a fair, if a tad trivial argument to make: if you change something, do it well.

What it's not is somehow a support for "don't try to get new audiences" when the entire POINT of that project was to get a new audiences interested in DS-like games.

[BeepBoo]

What it's not is somehow a support for "don't try to get new audiences" when the entire POINT of that project was to get a new audiences interested in DS-like games.

I suppose I just consider it another dark souls because the combat, story telling, and artistic style are all the same. It's just a new world that now happens to be massive and open to freely roam. They didn't mess with the core aspects of a game. The lore might as well be dark souls because it feels nearly identical.

I'd say the reason elden ring was so successful is because we basically didn't have any AAA large-scale fantasy action games for so long, let alone any point during the pandemic. Cyberpunk was the closest one and that flopped hard. Otherwise, ER wasn't some huge thing that seemed to intentionally alter things to target a new audience. It just happened to get one due to other factors. ER seemed like an attempt to go harder and bigger than they'd ever had the resources/freedom to do for the fans that already existed. Just like Armored Core will be.

I could shift gears and go into other examples instead if you'd prefer? Plenty in the automotive world, or other artistic mediums.

[Syegfryed]

That's a bit of a contradiction, though.

Elden Ring sold a lot more copies than Dark Souls precisely BECAUSE it tried (and succeeded) to get a new audience..

while still maintaning the old one

Sure, some people didn't like some changes, it was about to happen, but unlike RoP they stay true with the souls saga

I agree they have to get new people in, but they still had to cater the old fanbase, otherwise you are just shooting in your own foot.

[Biomega]

They didn't mess with the core aspects

I think this is really what you're trying to get at.

The problem being, of course, what exactly those "core aspects" are, and what constitutes "messing" (as opposed to just, say, developing or evolving).

It's easy to point to successful projects and go "look they did it therefore it can be done!". That's a true statement, but it doesn't yield a formula; and for every time someone succeeds, someone else also fails, and often for the same reason - "I didn't like the new one, it was just like the old one" is a very common complaint in many forms of media after all.

Elements like "core aspects" are vague and ill-defined; they're a I'll-know-it-when-I-see-it touchie-feelie kind of deal to most people, and can't easily be extracted for reproduction or even just patterning. It's very difficult to nail down such "core aspects" without just replacing one vague statement with another.

What's the "core aspect" of a fantasy TV show? Or if you want to get more concrete, what's the "core aspect" of Tolkien's works? Of Lord of the Rings? As soon as you start going into details, disagreement will ensue. Are hobbits a core aspect? Is "good vs. evil" not too vague? What about "it's got elves in it", that can't just be it, right?

It's very tricky.

Now, don't misunderstand: I'm not trying to defend this show in its choices. I think they royally screwed up on this one, and I haven't even watched Ep4 because quite frankly fuck them I'm done. But it's VERY hard to succinctly analyze this failure in terms of the FORMULA - not just listing tons of details that didn't work out (that's easy), but actually providing an abstract basis for systemic failures, and of course justification for why they were failures. That gets real murky real quick.

[Triceron]

Sauron left the mark of his plan in the Finrod(Galadriel brother) body, that shit makes no sense and its just to justify her journey, but they didn't knew how to do it in a good/clever way.

Jeez I totally forgot that connection. Yeah that makes even less sense now that the mark is supposed to be a map and a plan. Why is it appearing on the most random of places. It's on an anvil. It's on a blade. It's marked on dead bodies. What are the writers hoping to get across here?

[Biomega]

while still maintaning the old one

Sure, some people didn't like some changes, it was about to happen, but unlike RoP they stay true with the souls saga

I agree they have to get new people in, but they still had to cater the old fanbase, otherwise you are just shooting in your own foot.

Oh absolutely, but it's not like RoP went "fuck the old fans, let's just YOLO this shit for Gen Z millennials YEEEEET!" either. They fully INTENDED to keep the old but also get the new. They didn't succeed, but it wasn't as if that was a flaw on the levels of conceptualization - it was the actual execution that had that result. No one thought to ignore the old, established audiences, I'm sure. And why would they? Projects like this often rely to a large part on precisely those old, established if not outright entrenched audiences to spread the word. They're not indispensable, but they're very valuable.

[Syegfryed]

Oh absolutely, but it's not like RoP went "fuck the old fans, let's just YOLO this shit for Gen Z millennials YEEEEET!" either. They fully INTENDED to keep the old but also get the new. They didn't succeed, but it wasn't as if that was a flaw on the levels of conceptualization - it was the actual execution that had that result. No one thought to ignore the old, established audiences, I'm sure. And why would they? Projects like this often rely to a large part on precisely those old, established if not outright entrenched audiences to spread the word. They're not indispensable, but they're very valuable.

I don't know man, i would think it was not intended too if i would not seen the last 4 episodes, but at this point i think they fully wanted to get a new fanbase using the old one as cannon folder. Some changes are too nonsensical to believe it was just by accident.

It could not be intentional but that,, how can anyone reach that position and be this oblivion? Like, not just the writers, but everyone in the project, no one would stop and say "hold on, maybe this is too far?"

[tikcol]

What are the writers hoping to get across here?

The map thingy was dumb on its own but then you remember that Sauron used it on Finrod during the 1st age(thousands of years prior) and I'm just confused at how they thought this whole Sauron's Contingency Plan was a good idea that wouldn't create a thousand plot holes down the line. (I guess they don't give a shit).

What a bunch of dullards these writers.

[Kumorii]

Jeez I totally forgot that connection. Yeah that makes even less sense now that the mark is supposed to be a map and a plan. Why is it appearing on the most random of places. It's on an anvil. It's on a blade. It's marked on dead bodies. What are the writers hoping to get across here?

Galadriel said it herself during the opening scenes in the ruins.
"It's a trail for the Orcs to follow".

Which doesn't make it better since they just establish not even the wises of them could discern what it meant.
And she apparently "knows" what it is, but never drew a connection to look at a map if it's supposed to be a trail.
Why would Sauron even mark an enemy with a map that Orcs are supposed to follow on a casualty during a battle. You know, the Orcs probably left with him and if he wanted a trail for orcs that stayed, just tell them after the battle?

Think they could've made this a bit clearer by just having Galadriel point out how it's a trail and why they should go north. Something simple as the mark just pointing north. She would be wrong, but at least they show her interpreting it the way she does.

The mark is simply a MacGuffin that's poorly made.

[Askyl]

I have not seen so many people pretending to know Tolkien and discuss his work while stretching their arguments out as much as you guys here do, to hack on the show for no reason at all.

All mad about the show being a success and having a huge following and loads and loads of fans from actual Tokien communities liking it.

Quite hilarious. Keep going "getting some popcorn".

[Syegfryed]

I have not seen so many people pretending to know Tolkien and discuss his work while stretching their arguments out as much as you guys here do, to hack on the show for no reason at all.

All mad about the show being a success and having a huge following and loads and loads of fans from actual Tokien communities liking it.

Quite hilarious. Keep going "getting some popcorn".

thankfully the show hacks itself, we are just commenting about then.

But its more hilarious how you make all this nonsense up.

[rogoth]

Yes, the elves are complacent and apathetic about an evil they think they already defeated. That's like...the whole point.

Given what has been said/implied up to this point, we can assume that the watchtowers like the one Arondir was manning were as much to keep an eye on the Men who once served that evil as to protect against the evil itself. Hence the racial tensions.

And I do hope you're not expecting to see Sauron at the height of his power by the end of the first fucking season... We might not even see him at all until much later.

except in the actual lore, it's Gil-Galad who foresees evil resurfacing in the world and it it Gil-Galad who enlists the aid of Numenor to fight said evil, but with it being current year we can't have a white guy as the good guy anymore so obviously they had to change yet another canonical fact to suit their agenda.

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Galadriel said it herself during the opening scenes in the ruins.
"It's a trail for the Orcs to follow".

Which doesn't make it better since they just establish not even the wises of them could discern what it meant.
And she apparently "knows" what it is, but never drew a connection to look at a map if it's supposed to be a trail.
Why would Sauron even mark an enemy with a map that Orcs are supposed to follow on a casualty during a battle. You know, the Orcs probably left with him and if he wanted a trail for orcs that stayed, just tell them after the battle?

Think they could've made this a bit clearer by just having Galadriel point out how it's a trail and why they should go north. Something simple as the mark just pointing north. She would be wrong, but at least they show her interpreting it the way she does.

The mark is simply a MacGuffin that's poorly made.

one could argue that, that in itself is allegory for this entire show, in the fact that it's very badly made fan fiction of laughable standards.

[Triceron]

I have not seen so many people pretending to know Tolkien and discuss his work while stretching their arguments out as much as you guys here do, to hack on the show for no reason at all.

All mad about the show being a success and having a huge following and loads and loads of fans from actual Tokien communities liking it.

Quite hilarious. Keep going "getting some popcorn".

Lol, probably the same Tolkien fans we saw in their promos for this show.

The outlook of the show is divided at best. There isn't one single Tolkien community that is fully on board with this show. It really isn't any different here 'cept the tone of this forum is less tolerable of the bullshit idea that the writers are playing 4D chess with their contrived writing.

If you and others enjoy the show, all the power to you. But let's not pretend this show is somehow flawless and its detractors are merely 'envious of its success'. There's plenty of articles out there detailing the same exact criticisms said here. We all want to watch a great show, and the fact is this isn't even a good show. Doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed, it just means we all have to lower our standards to enjoy it.

[rogoth]

I have not seen so many people pretending to know Tolkien and discuss his work while stretching their arguments out as much as you guys here do, to hack on the show for no reason at all.

All mad about the show being a success and having a huge following and loads and loads of fans from actual Tokien communities liking it.

Quite hilarious. Keep going "getting some popcorn".

says who precisely?, because all that was reported was Amazon stating that '25 million people SAMPLED the rings of power premiere episode, as of the 4th episode the number of people tuning in to watch has dropped by over 60% assuming that number to be accurate which if you believe that you're deluded, and since that boastful claim Amazon has been radio silent since and hasn't said a word about the show and instead has tried to plaster their fabricated narrative that people are being racist, with no evidence of said racism, the only source they tout is 'trust me bro', while paying off the old cast members of the PJ trilogy to get behind the fabricated narrative to try and garner some sympathy from the nostalgia bait crowd.

so please, tell me more about this so called 'success' and 'huge following', i'm genuinely curious to know where it is, because based on all available metrics and data, it's a colossal flop with a pitiful following at best, so unless you're aware of something that professional data analysts aren't i would be curious to know about it.

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Lol, probably the same Tolkien fans we saw in their promos for this show.

The outlook of the show is divided at best. There isn't one single Tolkien community that is fully on board with this show. It really isn't any different here 'cept the tone of this forum is less tolerable of the bullshit idea that the writers are playing 4D chess with their contrived writing.

those weren't fans, they were 'superfans' you neglected to make the distinction my friend.

[hulkgor]

Love the "gatekeepers" on this thread telling people what they should feel about the show, and the bashing\arguments that follow if\when they disagree with it.

[Sialina]

Love the "gatekeepers" on this thread telling people what they should feel about the show, and the bashing\arguments that follow if\when they disagree with it.

Not a very bright observation, people are either expressing their pleasure or displeasure of the show. Some on both sides steeped in ideology, one side is clearly more ideological in my opinion though.
Of course you want to discuss something if you feel it's amazing and everyone else feels it's terrible or the other way around.

[Adamas102]

Jeez I totally forgot that connection. Yeah that makes even less sense now that the mark is supposed to be a map and a plan. Why is it appearing on the most random of places. It's on an anvil. It's on a blade. It's marked on dead bodies. What are the writers hoping to get across here?

Why is that considered an inconsistency? That’s pretty much how a lot of symbols work, having multiple meanings depending on who is viewing them. For example, the Christian cross has deep meaning to a lot of people of that faith, symbolic of Christ and sacrifice, representative of an actual object in their mythology, and to a lot of people it simply IS the symbol of Christianity, one that they put on everything from jewelry to bumper stickers to coffee mugs and so on.

The symbol being the Mark of Sauron, marking his kills and his instruments (the anvil, the sword), while also having a special secret meaning to his followers isn’t weird at all.

[Triceron]

Why is that considered an inconsistency? That’s pretty much how a lot of symbols work, having multiple meanings depending on who is viewing them. For example, the Christian cross has deep meaning to a lot of people of that faith, symbolic of Christ and sacrifice, representative of an actual object in their mythology, and to a lot of people it simply IS the symbol of Christianity, one that they put on everything from jewelry to bumper stickers to coffee mugs and so on.

The symbol being the Mark of Sauron, marking his kills and his instruments (the anvil, the sword), while also having a special secret meaning to his followers isn’t weird at all.

Yes but the symbol isn't just something of multiple meanings. The show wants to define the sigil as having a specific meaning. And their explanation so far is that 1: Galadriel believes it is leading the Orcs somewhere and 2: she confirms it by this being a map of the Southlands, and as a plan B for when Morgoth fails.

Now if the show establishes this as the meaning of the symbol, then it makes little sense why Sauron would be using this mark so seemingly randomly. It is mired by actions inconsistent to the plot, or if anything, self-defeating considering the seemingly random application of the mark on an Elf is the main motivation of the main character in believing Sauron is still alive.

So why is Sauron even adopting this 'Plan B' mark as his personal sigil and marking Elven corpses with it during a time when Morgoth hadn't been defeated yet? The show writers probably don't seem to care enough to explain. The mark is serving its purpose as a macguffin towards the Southlands and that's all that they care to make this symbol to be.

[hulkgor]

Not a very bright observation, people are either expressing their pleasure or displeasure of the show. Some on both sides steeped in ideology, one side is clearly more ideological in my opinion though.
Of course you want to discuss something if you feel it's amazing and everyone else feels it's terrible or the other way around.

It's steering pretty far from a normal discussion when anyone that likes the show is frequently called a 'shill'. But sure, let this become another StarCitizen megathread for a couple more hundred pages.

[Orby]

Not a very bright observation, people are either expressing their pleasure or displeasure of the show. Some on both sides steeped in ideology, one side is clearly more ideological in my opinion though.
Of course you want to discuss something if you feel it's amazing and everyone else feels it's terrible or the other way around.

Personally I am not sure I have seen many super positive viewers here. Mostly people here are extremely negative or, like me, like the show but recognize there are some issues.