Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Rageonit]

It's as big as the population that reads fantasy novels, whatever you consider that as. I mean, what exactly are you thinking to compare Tolkien to? Paw Patrol?

No, it's not. Only a small part of people who read fantasy novels truly care about the mythology of the Tolkien's universe. The Lovecraft comparision is actually very apt. Tolkien is only important for people who care about the roots of fantasy genre, just like Lovecraft is only important for people who care about the roots of horror. Most people who read horror stories are quite content to stop on King, Koontz, Masterton and whatever. I'm willing to bet more people were drawn to "Rigns of Power" thanks to PJs movies than Tolkiens books - and most of those people have never read any Tolkien book.

[Triceron]

No, it's not. Only a small part of people who read fantasy novels truly care about the mythology of the Tolkien's universe. The Lovecraft comparision is actually very apt. Tolkien is only important for people who care about the roots of fantasy genre, just like Lovecraft is only important for people who care about the roots of horror. Most people who read horror stories are quite content to stop on King, Koontz, Masterton and whatever. I'm willing to bet more people were drawn to "Rigns of Power" thanks to PJs movies than Tolkiens books - and most of those people have never read any Tolkien book.

Yes, and what exactly does that matter?

You say don't overestimate his name, but he's still one of the most widely celebrated fantasy authors out there. Just as Lovecraft is one of the most widely celebrated horror authors. And you're then trying to downplay that by comparing it to what exactly? Movies and other multimedia? Shows your kids like? It doesn't 'overestimate' anything since what's being said is he is one of the most renowned fantasy authors.

Harry Potter is also popular. So what? Doesn't make Tolkien 'on decline'. If anything, the LOTR-related movies, games and shows keep his name alive and draw more awareness to his original novels, making him continue to be widely acknowledged.

[bledgor]

No, it's not. Only a small part of people who read fantasy novels truly care about the mythology of the Tolkien's universe. The Lovecraft comparision is actually very apt. Tolkien is only important for people who care about the roots of fantasy genre, just like Lovecraft is only important for people who care about the roots of horror. Most people who read horror stories are quite content to stop on King, Koontz, Masterton and whatever. I'm willing to bet more people were drawn to "Rigns of Power" thanks to PJs movies than Tolkiens books - and most of those people have never read any Tolkien book.

Holy shit mate, you call on the 25 million number yet you want to downplay the biggest fantasy author of all time? Like which is it? Is the number small or Tolkien actually still a powerhouse of fantasy? Tolkien still has massive reach, yes his younger audience might be smaller, but he still has reach. Tolkien is much bigger than just people who care for roots of fantasy. Also I mentioned the Jackson movies too, so you are conceding the point here anyways. Again, do you think with Tolkien's name/Jacksons help this show gets ANYWHERE close to 25 million views on episode one?

Like I said, the Rings of Power had every single silver spoon a spoiled rich kid could want, and yet it from the numbers we have given is falling off, and from what we can watch has fallen way short of what it could have been.

Also please don't ass pull, when you say things like only a small part of fantasy readers care/read Tolkien's universe I can't take you seriously. There is a reason he isn't just so well read, but respected, he is the OG and one of the greats of world building. Even if we kindly give you the bs that people don't care for his universe, they still sure as fuck respect it.

Finally you can't say he is overestimated, he is STILL the king of fantasy book sales, like he has sold hundreds of millions of copies, the only author on par with him is Rowling.

[VMSmith]

Tolkien - not only this show, but Tolkien the writer - is a borefest.

As much as I love the books, this has always been true. The Tom Bombadil section of Fellowship nearly peeled me off the books completely and there's a reason no adaptation has included it, it's incredibly dull.

Tolkien was never a master at writing a gripping tale that kept readers enthralled in each chapter. He was a master mythologist who was creating a world that he had imagined. The actual storytelling is actually quite dry and tedious, often diverging into tangents (like the aforementioned Bombadil scene) that really only interested the author, himself ... and those who were most interested in the building of a world more than the story set in that world.

[Rageonit]

Yes, and what exactly does that matter?

You say don't overestimate his name, but he's still one of the most widely celebrated fantasy authors out there. Just as Lovecraft is one of the most widely celebrated horror authors. And you're then trying to downplay that by comparing it to what exactly? Movies and other multimedia? Shows your kids like? It doesn't 'overestimate' anything since what's being said is he is one of the most renowned fantasy authors, not that he's got the reach of Paw Patrol or whatever else non-fantasy novel you want to equate his books to.

What exactly am I downplaying here? All I'm saying is that Tolkien's name doesn't have as much drawing power as some would like to assume. Yes, people know the name - but do you really think that's enough to draw them in? Again, is Shakespeare a name people are generally accustomed with? Yeah, one would think so. Do you think it's enough to draw people to the new adaptation of "Hamlet"? Well no, I don't think so. It doesn't matter how many people heard the name Tolkien and associate it with the fantasy genre; what matters is how many of those people truly enjoy his work. And nowadays, it's less than you think.

[VMSmith]

Tolkien still has massive reach

Honestly, he never had this. I can only cite my graduating class of 1987, but I was the only person in that class who had read any Tolkien at all. And that's including my friends that I played D&D with.

Tolkien only became really well-known outside of literary circles because of the "Frodo Lives" campaign that caught people's attention.

[Triceron]

What exactly am I downplaying here? All I'm saying is that Tolkien's name doesn't have as much drawing power as some would like to assume. Yes, people know the name - but do you really think that's enough to draw them in? Again, is Shakespeare a name people are generally accustomed with? Yeah, one would think so. Do you think it's enough to draw people to the new adaptation of "Hamlet"? Well no, I don't think so. It doesn't matter how many people heard the name Tolkien and associate it with the fantasy genre; what matters is how many of those people truly enjoy his work. And nowadays, it's less than you think.

No one said that his works are popular because of the name of the author alone, so you're literally arguing yourself here. What was said is that Tolkien is widely recognized and people already know of his work, while the LOTR movies have also established his works' popularity in the public domain. You're circling back to attack a strawman when no one was saying the success of his works is based on his name alone.

Don't peddle that bullshit here.

[bledgor]

Honestly, he never had this. I can only cite my graduating class of 1987, but I was the only person in that class who had read any Tolkien at all. And that's including my friends that I played D&D with.

Tolkien only became really well-known outside of literary circles because of the "Frodo Lives" campaign that caught people's attention.

Cool as former educator I knew dozens of students that read it, and every librarian I know of recommends it to fantasy readers. See how little your point means?

What is with these fucking nay Sayers trying to down play Tolkien now? HE HAS SOLD HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF COPIES OF HIS BOOKS, you are factually wrong. Also if Tolkien is just some author now who has no reach why the fuck would Amazon pay 250 million for just the rights to the appendices??? Are you saying Amazon is run by complete idiots that know nothing?

[Rageonit]

No one said that his works are popular because of the name of the author alone, so you're literally arguing yourself here. What was said is that Tolkien is widely recognized and people already know of his work, while the LOTR movies have also established his works' popularity in the public domain. You're circling back to attack a strawman when no one was saying the success of his works is based on his name alone.

Don't peddle that bullshit here.

The comment I was responding to literally said that the showrunnes ruined the show, becaue Tolkien's name alone was enough to make it a success (it was a comment written by bledgor). And I didn't - and don't - agree with that.

[Triceron]

The comment I was responding to literally said that the showrunnes ruined the show, becaue Tolkien's name alone was enough to make it a success (it was a comment written by bledgor), and I didn't - and don't - agree with that.

No, you can go back and see he cited the LOTR movies as well.

Not to mention this is TOLKIEN, the most renowned fantasy author of all time, and Rings of Power also had the huge support of LoTR movie goers to watch, it isn't like this show had no help coming in, it probably had the highest possible starting point you could get for a show (HotD COULD have equaled it if later seasons of GoT were actually good, but that is a tangent).

That's a MASSIVE difference to your argument that focuses only on Tolkien's name as though it were the only relevant factor here.

Now, whether what he says about RoP declining that popularity or not, that's completely debatable and I don't see there being any indication for a rise or decline of the property based on viewer numbers alone. It's too early to tell what the impact and reach would be just based on first 24-hour numbers, so I wouldn't be quick to judge that either way.

[bledgor]

No, you can go back and see he cited the LOTR movies as well.

Not to mention this is TOLKIEN, the most renowned fantasy author of all time, and Rings of Power also had the huge support of LoTR movie goers to watch, it isn't like this show had no help coming in, it probably had the highest possible starting point you could get for a show (HotD COULD have equaled it if later seasons of GoT were actually good, but that is a tangent).

These people can't read, can only defend RoP with tangents and false strawman's. I really should just stop as actual/quality conversations are sparse here.

[Rageonit]

No, you can go back and see he cited the LOTR movies as well.

Not to mention this is TOLKIEN, the most renowned fantasy author of all time, and Rings of Power also had the huge support of LoTR movie goers to watch, it isn't like this show had no help coming in, it probably had the highest possible starting point you could get for a show (HotD COULD have equaled it if later seasons of GoT were actually good, but that is a tangent).

That's a MASSIVE difference to your argument that focuses only on Tolkien's name as though it were the only relevant factor here. As we all acknowledge, it's not.

Well I don't know what we're arguing here then, since I said myself that I'm willing to bet PJs movies were a bigger draw than Tolkien's books.

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These people can't read, can only defend RoP with tangents and false strawman's. I really should just stop as actual/quality conversations are sparse here.

Pot and kettle much? Nowhere did I defend RoP; I didn't even say it's good, I said the first few episodes were a boring world building affair.

[VMSmith]

Cool as former educator I knew dozens of students that read it, and every librarian I know of recommends it to fantasy readers. See how little your point means?

What is with these fucking nay Sayers trying to down play Tolkien now? HE HAS SOLD HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF COPIES OF HIS BOOKS, you are factually wrong.

It has sold about 150 million copies worldwide over the past sixty-eight years.

I'm not saying it's unknown, but it's definitely not some huge cultural touchstone. Not until, at least, the Jackson movies.

Don Quixote more than triples the number sold and if you mentioned it in casual conversation many people would have no clue what you're talking about. The first Harry Potter book has sold more than two-thirds the number of books as LotR and it's only twenty-one years old, less than a third the age of Rings.

The books are a previous generations story. More people today recognize the story due to the Jackson movies than the books. If you removed all the Jackson movies from existence and released Rings of Power in that vacuum then it would have only a fraction of the interest it currently has.

[RH92]

It has sold about 150 million copies worldwide over the past sixty-eight years.

I'm not saying it's unknown, but it's definitely not some huge cultural touchstone. Not until, at least, the Jackson movies.

Don Quixote more than triples the number sold and if you mentioned it in casual conversation many people would have no clue what you're talking about. The first Harry Potter book has sold more than two-thirds the number of books as LotR and it's only twenty-one years old, less than a third the age of Rings.

The books are a previous generations story. More people today recognize the story due to the Jackson movies than the books. If you removed all the Jackson movies from existence and released Rings of Power in that vacuum then it would have only a fraction of the interest it currently has.

This is true. I think the books were quite popular initially and then forgotten for some time until the movies came out.

I personally know only one or two people who read it before the trilogy hit the theaters.

[Askyl]

It has sold about 150 million copies worldwide over the past sixty-eight years.

I'm not saying it's unknown, but it's definitely not some huge cultural touchstone. Not until, at least, the Jackson movies.

Don Quixote more than triples the number sold and if you mentioned it in casual conversation many people would have no clue what you're talking about. The first Harry Potter book has sold more than two-thirds the number of books as LotR and it's only twenty-one years old, less than a third the age of Rings.

The books are a previous generations story. More people today recognize the story due to the Jackson movies than the books. If you removed all the Jackson movies from existence and released Rings of Power in that vacuum then it would have only a fraction of the interest it currently has.

I'm sorry are you a teenager or something? Do you not know who Tolkien is or was? Do you not know that every modern fantasy writer credit his work and everyone in the world pretty much knew about Lord of the Rings before the movies came out? It's not a modern phenomenon.

All of Tolkiens books have sold over 600 million copies (Lotr, Hobbit, Silmarillion, Lost tales and all the other books C Tolkien finished from notes and stories).

What you said now is fucking hilarious and just show how amazingly unknowledgeable a person can be.

Edit: Also, as someone who've been a huge Tolkien nerd since I was like 8 years old, so soon 25 years of Tolkien nerdage. Read all books (except for Fall of Gondolin which I'm reading now), even learned Quenya and Sindarin as a teenager etc.. The show is fucking amazing. It would be better if they had Silmarillion and Lost Tales rights, but it's fucking amazing. To the point I hope Tolkien Estate get their act together and sell the rights for Silmarillion for some 1st age action on screen.

[Triceron]

Well I don't know what we're arguing here then, since I said myself that I'm willing to bet PJs movies were a bigger draw than Tolkien's books.

Exactly. No one said Tolkien's work was farther reaching than the movie adaptations, so not sure why you went on a tangent to argue that point....

[bledgor]

It has sold about 150 million copies worldwide over the past sixty-eight years.

I'm not saying it's unknown, but it's definitely not some huge cultural touchstone. Not until, at least, the Jackson movies.

Don Quixote more than triples the number sold and if you mentioned it in casual conversation many people would have no clue what you're talking about. The first Harry Potter book has sold more than two-thirds the number of books as LotR and it's only twenty-one years old, less than a third the age of Rings.

The books are a previous generations story. More people today recognize the story due to the Jackson movies than the books. If you removed all the Jackson movies from existence and released Rings of Power in that vacuum then it would have only a fraction of the interest it currently has.

Cool and the Hobbit has sold 100 million, meaning 250 million total. It is #3 on your list behind Don Quixote a book over 400 years old and A Tale of Two Cities a book over 150 years old. Like what the fuck do you qualify as huge cultural touchstone? Does it have to have monuments in every city? Does it need to personal impact the lives of everyone on the planet?

Also if people you are conversing with have no clue what Don Quixote is, you aren't conversing with many people/people with a high school education. You go into Harry Potter which yes has amazing numbers without mentioning so many other details that are contextually important, but whatever, if you want to point to Harry Potter I don't think it helps your cause.

I would concede books are no longer a big hallmark of hobbies now, but they very much still have a market/are relevant. I would say a majority of younger people recognize the story due to Jackson films, but anyone teen+ during the Jackson films if not already knowing the novels would have learned of them by then, and most of those that enjoyed the film at least sampled the novels. Again HUNDREDS OF millions collective books sold, like what the fuck number does it have to be for you? A billion? 10 billion? How do you consider it overestimating?

If you removed all the Jackson movies I would again concede it would be a smaller interest, but I very strongly disagree it would only be a fraction, as the older generations would be starved for a good Tolkien adaptation then and be very interested in the potential of Rings of Power. Again, stop downplaying this shit, it is against all facts we have.

It also doesn't do anything to disprove my point that Rings of Power had all the potential in the world to be the greatest/largest show ever and has potentially (I would contend has already, but will need final numbers to confirm) fallen not just short of that, but very short. Using your example the Potter films deviated in quite a few ways from the books, and in the later films I would say to large detriments to the story, but they were still close enough/enjoyable enough for me to give each a watch and look forward to the next (and considering the praise and how the films grew I would contend others felt very much the same). This direction helped them to become one of the greatest/most profitable film franchise in history.

[Rageonit]

Exactly. No one said Tolkien's work was farther reaching than the movie adaptations, so not sure why you went on a tangent to argue that point....

Are you 100% sure it was noone? Read the post above you then.

[RH92]

I'm sorry are you a teenager or something? Do you not know who Tolkien is or was? Do you not know that every modern fantasy writer credit his work and everyone in the world pretty much knew about Lord of the Rings before the movies came out? It's not a modern phenomenon.

All of Tolkiens books have sold over 600 million copies (Lotr, Hobbit, Silmarillion, Lost tales and all the other books C Tolkien finished from notes and stories).

What you said now is fucking hilarious and just show how amazingly unknowledgeable a person can be.

I think it's important to understand that being influential does not always translate to being popular as well.

Now I am not saying Tolkien wasn't popular, he created a world with a lot of depth that is hard to replicate, but there were multiple highly influential artists across all the platforms who died less fortunate than those they inspired. Probably a price to pay for being ahead of your time.

[Triceron]

Are you 100% sure it was noone? Read the post above you then.

Yes, no one, because you went off on a tangent, and now we have a bunch of people making comments on Tolkien's work vs the adaptations because of your original strawman argument.

Like you said yourself, you agreed that the LOTR movies are wider reaching. Now let' go back - where does Bledgor say the books were more far reaching than the movie adaptations?

No where. Because he never said that. All he's pointing out is that the Author is well recognized and the Books are popular, both statements being true. There's no statement made about the entire LOTR multimedia franchise being popular because of the books alone. What was said is that the property was already based on a popular book series by a well known author, and RoP had the draw of this AND the people who watched the LOTR movies, which you have admitted to agreeing to.

So I take this as a misunderstanding on your part, if anything.