Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[PieBob]

Stop saying Tolkein you idiotic moron

[Dhrizzle]

Why is that considered an inconsistency? That’s pretty much how a lot of symbols work, having multiple meanings depending on who is viewing them. For example, the Christian cross has deep meaning to a lot of people of that faith, symbolic of Christ and sacrifice, representative of an actual object in their mythology, and to a lot of people it simply IS the symbol of Christianity, one that they put on everything from jewelry to bumper stickers to coffee mugs and so on.

The symbol being the Mark of Sauron, marking his kills and his instruments (the anvil, the sword), while also having a special secret meaning to his followers isn’t weird at all.

It only makes sense if you look at Middle-earth as an intrinsically magical place and Sauron a mystical being associating himself with that symbol as a brand for his followers. Oh wait...

[J012D4N]

Watched all 4 eps, I am confused how it manages to look quite cheap.

The only things I've noted thus far that stand out as "cheap" are some of the costumes / design.
As an example, some of the elven kits, like Celebrimbor & Elrond, are utter crap. I'm sure if I re-watched all 4 again, I'd note other things.
On the other hand, I'm quite happy with how the orcs turned out.

[Dhrizzle]

Ok so Galadriel jumps ship in the middle of the ocean. OK. Casually a boat of people from a veeeery far away land are passing by. Like in that exact point in the middle of an ocean. NICE. So they get attacked by giant fish and everybody dies except Galadriel and a guy, who, guess what, is a King. ALRIGHT. In the middle of an ocean, casually, a ship from Numenor saves them. Yes, a ship that was passing just by the very little raft in which our heroes were. AWESOME. You will not believe this, but the captain of that ship is just one of the veeeery few people that would befriend an elf in Numenor. AMAZING. And that guy leads Galadriel to some documents that help her to continue looking for Sauron. WHAT AN INCREDIBLE COINCIDENCE.

Yes, the kind of coincidence that could only realistically happen if there were powers at work in the world. The ones Galadriel mentions as being responsible. The same ones that cause leaves to fall from the tree in Numenor and also gave Elrond's dad the job of flying the evening star across the sky.

Tolkien's world is populated by godly and angelic beings that are very interested and frequently (if subtly) active in the welfare of the Children of Illuvatar.

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Long stopped watching doesn't mean I can't check summaries and see what new errors they made this week.

Biggest issue with modern discourse, people don't want to form an opinion they just want to regurgitate click-bait.

[Ghost of Cow]

Yes, the kind of coincidence that could only realistically happen if there were powers at work in the world. The ones Galadriel mentions as being responsible. The same ones that cause leaves to fall from the tree in Numenor and also gave Elrond's dad the job of flying the evening star across the sky.

Tolkien's world is populated by godly and angelic beings that are very interested and frequently (if subtly) active in the welfare of the Children of Illuvatar.

Maybe, but at a certain point just hand-waving everything with, "It's Magic" doesn't make for a very compelling story. Especially when we don't even see anyone pulling those strings.

As for the sigil, it is indeed kinda weird that he's just out there branding random elves with it for some reason if it's supposed to be a map. Pretty much a red herring in the end.

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If you actually pay attention to then, the hobbits are far more demented than humans or elves. They are sick people who left their kin to die when they can keep up and even gather to mock their death

You have one scene saying its their nature to help people and the other saying "no one leave the trail" to a 180° degree of fuck people who can't keep up with the group

Its just one of the few examples of the show contradicting itself, as it cannot keep up with the consistency not just from the lore but from the shit they made up

Yeah, the Harfoots are kinda sick.

It's even worse when you notice that like half the people in the caravan aren't even pulling a cart. But no one can help the family with the injured guy? We just totally ditch them? Talk about how "we wait for them" later when you read their names from a book of people you left behind? Dang.

[Dhrizzle]

If Tolkien came out today, no one would care. He's notable because he basically got the fantasy genre ball rolling, not be cause anyone really gives a shit about his supposed creative/literary genius.

I love Tolkien, I love his style, I love the depth of his world but if just books were released today the internet would be full of people crying about plot armour, Mary-Sues, the feminism of Eowyn being able to laugh at the Witch King and call him names (part of an agenda to make males look weak and cowardly) and the core message or LotR which is basically diversity = strength.

[Triceron]

Do you actually watch the show? It's made clear as day that they don't have any plans. The Southlanders aren't militarily experienced, quite the opposite in fact, so all they've done is panic and flee to the most secure spot. It's a major plot point that they have no plans and are in danger of starving to death, how can you watch that and then complain they haven't told you what those non-existent plans are?

I'm talking about the Elves and why they set up a watchtower in the first place when they are shown to have zero means of actually enforcing the place against something bad happening.

What is the purpose of the watchtowers if they aren't being shown actually watching anything or signalling for reinforcements? You can't tell what's going to happen other than starvation or an attack because the show is literally not showing us anything useful out of the Elves at the Watchtower.

[rhorle]

Maybe, but at a certain point just hand-waving everything with, "It's Magic" doesn't make for a very compelling story. Especially when we don't even see anyone pulling those strings.

Sure but at the same time isn't that the style Tolkien used? Isn't both the Hobbit and Lotr Gandalf pulling strings to make certain things happen with out us being shown? And along the way "magic" or supernatural things help to ensure things all work out in the end? The hobbit can at least excuse it to some degree since it originated as a children's bed time story but Lord of the Rings keeps the same theme of Gandalf pulling strings.

He was just more descriptive which allowed it to be obfuscated but it was still Magic and Gods saving and involved.

[Triceron]

I love Tolkien, I love his style, I love the depth of his world but if just books were released today the internet would be full of people crying about plot armour, Mary-Sues, the feminism of Eowyn being able to laugh at the Witch King and call him names (part of an agenda to make males look weak and cowardly) and the core message or LotR which is basically diversity = strength.

His books are still released today and people still are interested in the material because they are still good stories. It's not much different than any other fantasy series or general mythology. There's plenty of people with niche interests, and for the wider audiences they will get introduced to Tolkien through word of mouth or by gateway mediums like the movies or videogames. Not sure why people like you are arguing Tolkien's work can't be appreciated because it's not modernly written, most fantasy novels aren't popularized because of 'modern plot sensibilities' and we're talking about fiction where there's room to like and appreciate books as you re-read them and have a deeper understanding of why Middle Earth is different from its contemporaries.

Hell I was one who got into Tolkien after highschool, and by that time Warcraft 2 was already out and I thought Warcraft and Warhammer had superior lore to Middle Earth. Better Dwarves, better Elves, better magic, better dragons. Yet my appreciation for Middle Earth grew over time, and I better understood the stories and the symbolism and all the history that Tolkien created to connect the world together. Even understanding the Elven language and its real world roots gives the world a depth that few other fantasy series have.

[rhorle]

What is the purpose of the watchtowers if they aren't being shown actually watching anything or signalling for reinforcements? You can't tell what's going to happen other than starvation or an attack because the show is literally not showing us anything useful out of the Elves at the Watchtower.

It is almost as if the Elves can fail. I'm curious did you have the same outrage when dwarves escaped an elven city in the Hobbit? Where 200 orcs managed to sneak up on the water gate to an elven city?

The show set up the reason why the outpost didn't signal a threat. They were captured after being ordered to withdraw. The Human's don't have a plan other then going to a known fortified location. Since you know things were digging tunnels under their towns.

[Triceron]

Or you know they are using "common wizard things" to show case the character is special? You keep calling him gandalf just so you can complain how stupid it is that he is gandalf. When he likely isn't Gandalf but a Blue if it is a known wizard at all.

The way I interpret it is the show is aimed at LOTR movie fans more than book fans, and this is clear to me because of all the visual similarities to the movies. Certain aesthetics are kept similar like the Dwarf mines looking like they fit the PJ movies, or Numenor having a design similar to what we see in Gondor. And we have directly returning creature designs like the eagles, the serpentine Felbeasts that fought them, and the Balrog in the trailer that will be appearing later.

What we're seeing of the Stranger is a massive hint at 'Gandalf'. They aren't outright calling him that, but they are showing everything that Gandalf is capable of. And while it could be another wizard, the show hasn't really established anyone giving exposition or insight that other Wizards or Maiar were capable of Gandalf's specific brand of magic. Could it be Saruman? Well no one's seen Saruman use fire magic or talk to animals, so a casual LOTR movie viewer wouldn't make that assumption. Nor would they be aware Blue Wizards even exist. They would see the Stranger and think it's Gandalf.

If it is him, it's a surprise reveal everyone expected. If not, it is a red herring for the expectation that he was Gandalf.

I mean considering how much the show has deviated from the books already, I wouldn't out it past them to merely create a new character Wizard that was never in the books. Not a Blue wizard, not any that we've known of at all.

[Dhrizzle]

I'm talking about the Elves and why they set up a watchtower in the first place when they are shown to have zero means of actually enforcing the place against something bad happening.

What is the purpose of the watchtowers if they aren't being shown actually watching anything or signalling for reinforcements? You can't tell what's going to happen other than starvation or an attack because the show is literally not showing us anything useful out of the Elves at the Watchtower.

The Elves left, the people in the tower are the Southlanders who fled there to avoid the orc attacks. Whatever plans the Elven soldiers may have had are completely irrelevant.

[bledgor]

The only things I've noted thus far that stand out as "cheap" are some of the costumes / design.
As an example, some of the elven kits, like Celebrimbor & Elrond, are utter crap. I'm sure if I re-watched all 4 again, I'd note other things.
On the other hand, I'm quite happy with how the orcs turned out.

The elf ears look worse than Jackson's, and the Elves look too much like long eared humans rather than the ethereal eldar they are in the trilogy as well.

The Elves left, the people in the tower are the Southlanders who fled there to avoid the orc attacks. Whatever plans the Elven soldiers may have had are completely irrelevant.

I mean did you watch the show? They were captured, they didn't leave. Some elves they are, unable to see a miles long rut in the earth/burned line of trees, unable to avoid being captured, unable to report back to their superiors about orcs attacking (none of them said anything and they all wanted to escape to find help). Seems like they are largely idiots, but alas that is because they are written by idiots that can't imagine anything greater than them.

[Triceron]

It is almost as if the Elves can fail. I'm curious did you have the same outrage when dwarves escaped an elven city in the Hobbit? Where 200 orcs managed to sneak up on the water gate to an elven city?

Yes, the Elves in the Hobbit were quite incompetent in letting them slip, but they were still shown to be skillful for having been able to capture the Dwarves in the first place and being able to wage war with them at the Battle of 5 Armies.

Where have we seen the Elves at the Watchtower actually doing anything competent prior to being captured? Seemed like they couldn't do anything useful. They never captured an Orc, they never saw any hints at their movement or tunneling, everything happened under their watch.

The comparison here is if in the Hobbit, the Dwarves were able to infiltrate the Elven city, steal their wine barrels and continue without ever being noticed by Elves. Understand how incompetent the Elves would be in comparison?

The show set up the reason why the outpost didn't signal a threat. They were captured after being ordered to withdraw.

That's a huge fucking failure then. They had one job lol

[Dhrizzle]

His books are still released today and people still are interested in the material because they are still good stories.

His books are available today. When someone says "if they were released today" they mean "if they were made available for the first time."

Not sure why people like you are arguing Tolkien's work can't be appreciated because it's not modernly written

I'm not. I'm saying that if Tolkien's work was newly released today the types of people who cry about agendas and think "plot armour" or "Mary-Sue" are valid criticisms would be pumping out click-bait videos.

[Rageonit]

That's a huge fucking failure then. They had one job lol

I guess when you sit on a tower for a hundred years and nothing happens, you can become a bit complacent. Isn't that the reason why sooner or later, evil tends to resurface? We grow complacent and we miss the obvious signals. It's happening to us in the real world (as we speak, actually); and apparently it can happen to elves too.

[bledgor]

His books are available today. When someone says "if they were released today" they mean "if they were made available for the first time."



I'm not. I'm saying that if Tolkien's work was newly released today the types of people who cry about agendas and think "plot armour" or "Mary-Sue" are valid criticisms would be pumping out click-bait videos.

I'll take whataboutisms for 500. No they would still be very much enjoyed today, people wouldn't cry anymore than they do about it already, which is little. Jesus the lengths some people go to defending this show.

Before you complain yes it would be less read because of the massive influx in entertainment it would have to compete against, but for world building fantasy Tolkien is still a powerhouse and people would still read.

I guess when you sit on a tower for a hundred years and nothing happens, you can become a bit complacent. Isn't that the reason why sooner or later, evil tends to resurface? We grow complacent and we miss the obvious signals. It's happening to us in the real world (as we speak, actually); and apparently it can happen to elves too.

Every elf got complacent and then got captured with none having escaped to warn others to get an army? Pretty fucking massive failure, maybe if you want to do such an extreme you should show it to use, craft something at least a little believable for the audience such a screw up. I mean we are talking about Elves, they have crazy vision, and none saw the trench, or orcs coming?

[Triceron]

I'm not. I'm saying that if Tolkien's work was newly released today the types of people who cry about agendas and think "plot armour" or "Mary-Sue" are valid criticisms would be pumping out click-bait videos.

Yeah but people do that about even popular shit today so what's the point?

And in today's age, backlash and controversy contribute to popularity in the most roundabout ways. It would probably serve your argument better to imply the story would be overlooked and ignored by the masses rather than play the controversy card.

[Dhrizzle]

I'll take whataboutisms for 500.

You'll do what now?

No they would still be very much enjoyed today, people wouldn't cry anymore than they do about it already, which is little. Jesus the lengths some people go to defending this show. If a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass either.

I'm not saying they wouldn't be enjoyed I'm saying that the internet hate machine that cries about "Mary-Sues," "plot armour" and "agendas" would absolutely be raging against them.

[Rageonit]

Every elf got complacent and then got captured with none having escaped to warn others to get an army? Pretty fucking massive failure, maybe if you want to do such an extreme you should show it to use, craft something at least a little believable for the audience such a screw up. I mean we are talking about Elves, they have crazy vision, and none saw the trench, or orcs coming?

So your argument is, because the elves have great vision, they are incapable of making mistakes, even massive ones?
A small unit of bored elves who haven't seen an orc for hundreds of years vs a whole army that set up to take them by surprise? Yeah, I can totally see that happening.