1. #5241
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Mate, you're the one making the leaps here.
    1. You claim that the elves should have seen the trench without knowing where is it and without understanding how far a human being can travel on foot in a relatively short amount of time.
    2. You conveniently ignore the fact that the tower was surrounded by huge mountain ranges, limiting the view even more.
    3. You talk about burning villageS while in reality we see ONE village being ransacked immediatelly before the elves being captured (we can still see it burning when arriving on the scene). Said village is also located in a damn valley, which means the smoke would've been rather difficult to spot.
    4. You make it sound like the whole Southlands are burning and the elves are blind to it, when there's nothing to support that.
    5. Also, a band of elves coming home with ZERO knowledge of the danger (in fact being absolutely sure there's NO danger) can indeed be ambushed, because why not?
    1. I fully understand how far humans (these aren't humans btw, but elfs) can travel. We have no indication how far it is true, but obviously it is close enough for them to get to quickly, to tunnel to towns quickly, which means it is at most 1-2 days, and that is digging. Elves are supposed to see far, like miles far, they also have a tower to expand the distance they can see. Would they see tiny orcs no, but this is A MASSIVE CUT IN THE FOREST and trench, it would be visible for many miles, not to mention the smoke from it. You are telling me no elves noticed it for the weeks/months it would take to dig it? none of them ventured in that direction?

    2. It wasn't surrounded by huge mountains, it has mountains on opposite sides. This also means btw they have less area to monitor/less areas for the orcs to hide as they aren't going over the mountains. This means more chance for them to run into the orcs as they are patrolling less area. This tower is also very fucking tall, like hundreds of meters tall/on a mountains edge. HOW DO THE ORCS SURPRISE THEM.

    3. They mention others, but you do know SMOKE RISES. So a whole village burning would have had a lot of smoke rising form it, that would be visible from miles away. It wouldn't be hard to spot.

    4. ... The show gives us an image of the "tunnel" being like over a mile long and hundreds of feet wide. That is a massive amount of trees that are shown burn, and since we have no reason to believe otherwise they apparently did tree burning the whole time meaning thousands of trees were being burnt. That isn't something small you ignore/don't notice. You are acting like it is some chimney fires, this is more like a controlled forest fire, it would be noticed.

    5. All of them in a tower on a mountains edge are ambushed AND CAPTURED?

    How far do we have to ass pull to make this somehow maybe kinda of make sense? Why defend this? Just admit it is pretty shitty writing, because it is. I mean if you are okay with this low a level of writing I guess more power to you, I expect better, especially from a billion dollar show, and double that expectation for something written by Tolkien.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Not tunnels as such but it wouldn’t be. A surprise if they were also lead to investigate something odd and then got jumped.

    We know that hey had orders to go Home so they could have just found something odd on the road.
    The issue with that then becomes they had to have tunnels/traps set near the tower/between the Tower and the north. Yet the humans all make it to the tower with no issues, meaning it would have to be in the north. This means orcs got around/past the Elves with none the wiser to setup a trap for them than then also captured all of them.

    So either the orcs scouted the elves tower/routes without being seen or the have you heard of Sauron guy has other friends that report to the orcs/Adar. If they is the way they want to go, okay, but show more things that suggest treason/spies to lay the foundation for it. Also have a hard time believing the Elves who show such disdain to humans allow them to come up to their tower and map it out for orcs.

    To many things have to go right to make this scenario work/logical for me.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-09-19 at 06:41 PM.
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    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  2. #5242
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Again did you watch the show? We learn in the first part of the first episode that the elves spent thousands of years waging a war and even after victory spent a long time ensuring no trace was left. You are also incorrect about Tolkien as he never went into in-depth background about the full capabilities of groups and races prior to engaging them as part of the story.
    Yes and we never actually see the Elves being capable here either. You see a bunch of them struggling, with Galadriel's brother having died there. We don't even see the victory really, we see the aftermath and implied victory all focused on its losses. Again, the entire tone of this show is built around the Elves failing. Even in victory, it's all focused on what they've lost. We don't really see Elves as being at a height of power until we see the city of Lindon, and even then its importance is all through exposition, not actually shown. The establishment of the Elves as being a power so far is quite underwhelming. And I'm saying this as objectively as possible as I'm trying to take in this series from the perspective of someone who has zero understanding of Middle Earth and sees what the show is trying to do to establish everything on its own.

    So far, I don't think it's done a good job at world-building. It leans too heavily on expecting you to have watched Lord of the Rings, or being a casual viewer who doesn't think too deeply about the inconsistency of having Sauron marked an Elf with his mark thousands of years eariler that ends up being explained to be a map and a plan to be enacted on right now IF Morgoth happened to be defeated.

    Then why not attack Tolkien's work for those flaws instead of just the show?
    Because the topic of this thread is Rings of Power and not the Tolkien books?


    Like what the fuck kind of question is that? Do you even know what the topic of this thread is? Or do you think I should be criticizing Game of Thrones and all these other fantasy settings here just so you can get a broader idea of where I'm coming from?

    Rings of Power is beholden to itself, and its problems stem from lacking establishing its own world and lore. It builds heavily off the expectation that the audience must have watched Lord of the Rings to understand what an Elf or a Dwarf or a Wizard is. That is part of the problem I point out, because it doesn't do enough to establish these characters and their capabilities on their own prior to unfolding the story. They simply throw the characters in, sometimes in a way that subverts expectations (having expected you to have watched LOTR) and is quite unapologetic about it. And it ends up with the world building being a complete mess, with many of the inconsistencies being pointed out here.

    Why are you interested in this show if you think Tolkien told a bad story and a basic course on writing would have been able to fix his problems?
    Because this isn't Tolkien's story?

    Rings of Power isn't written by Tolkien, and most of the narrative so far is completely new and has no bearing on the events in the appendices. The entire Watchtower and Southlands arc doesn't appear in Tolkien's work at all, for example.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-19 at 06:51 PM.

  3. #5243
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    The issue with that then becomes they had to have tunnels/traps set near the tower/between the Tower and the north. Yet the humans all make it to the tower with no issues, meaning it would have to be in the north. This means orcs got around/past the Elves with none the wiser to setup a trap for them than then also captured all of them.
    They don't necessarily have to go to the tower or even town it self the elves could have been caught mid travel away from the tower as we know they were going to leave when black elf went to go see his girl friend and they could have departed around the same time.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #5244
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because the topic of this thread is Rings of Power and not the Tolkien books?
    So you see no reason why the Author of the work the show is based on is relevant? Isn't it strange how here you are arguing the source material and Tolkien can't be referenced in a discussion about the show while at the same time others have complained that the show doesn't have enough of Tolkien and the source material? Lmao.

    That is on top of your unrealistic expectation that a show has to define Dwarves, Elves, and offer a introductory class on its world prior to showing even the first episode. What show has every done that? Made its viewers an expert on its world prior to watching any or all of its episodes? This is again where your bias shows through because you are setting impossible expectations for the show then complaining when they are not met.
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  5. #5245
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    See, that's where you're drawing a completely speculative conclusion though. The Humans wouldn't have to conquer the watchtower to carry on nefarious deeds if they were to do it the same was as the Orcs making tunnels without being seen by the Elves. Think about it this way - if the Humans loyal to Sauron had the guidance of Adar to work under the watch of the Elves, in many ways like Theo already does in finding that evil sword, then what would be the difference to what the Orcs are already capable of?
    You're ignoring one big difference here: the humans are being observed (for generations even) by the elves, while the orcs are not even known to exist. In all of those years of keeping an eye on the humans, the elves see nothing that would suggest they are cooperating with some malicious force (because, obviously, they don't). It would take a lot more cunning to deceive the elves while being observed than while living in the shadows, that's for sure. I highly doubt the humans we see in the show would be capable of that level of cunning, but that's just me.

    And yes, some events are timed conveniently, like in most plots known to the humanity (Lord of the Rings - the book - has some convenient moments too, ie. the eagles appearing just in time, but not only). But the watchers being called back at that particular point in time is just a single facet of a bigger story arc of elves growing complacent and oblivious to threats. It's convenient, but it keeps the story succint (and the show's already slow in the first episodes), so I can live with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Which makes the whole narrative purpose of the watchtower contrived. You're explaining how purposeless it is in the story overall for me. I don't even need to tell you how pointless it is to be the center of this narrative, you already realize it.
    But why would the tower need any more reason to exist? Was it said somewhere that it's central to the plot...? Why would you give that tower more meaning than it has to have? Surely, there are plenty of towers in the world; this particular one has an important character manning it, so we get to know a bit of its story. Is it so difficult to believe that there is a tower in the world that had some importance in the past, but with time, lost most of it? Is it difficult to believe that the elves would leave a small unit there "just in case", even though there was no immediate threat? I mean, if there was a war somewhere in the world and the elves would send half of their army to a tower in the middle of nowhere, that would be rather sketchy, but it's a time of peace - surely you can spare like five people to man a tower (until you decide there's no point anymore, like they do in the show?). Every made-up world has a history we don't need to know in detail, so why do you make so much fuss about a tower manned by a handful of soliders of no real importance? Does every tower have to have an important meaning?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    5. All of them in a tower on a mountains edge are ambushed AND CAPTURED?
    Do you even watch the show, mate? When Arondir and Bronwyn travel to the village, Bronwyn asks Arondir where are the other elves and he replies: "They are probably looking for me" (or something to that extent), because they were supposed to leave already. So no, they were not in the tower.
    I'll end it here, and you let me know when you actually watch the show.

  6. #5246
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    They don't necessarily have to go to the tower or even town it self the elves could have been caught mid travel away from the tower as we know they were going to leave when black elf went to go see his girl friend and they could have departed around the same time.
    Hence my north comment, as I believe the tower is in the northern end of the valley between the two mountains. Unless the orcs tunneled through mountains or went all the way around/over, they would have to tunnel/travel near the tower to get past them for a trap. The other option is the orcs are located between where the elves/southlanders are and the north, which I would struggle with too.

    Like I said a few posts up, if instead of capturing all these elves they had Arondir's buddy tell them they fought a fierce battle and many elves died, but he believes some got away to warn others, I am okay with it. Repeating myself, but then you have him suggest they need to escape because the orcs are in wildly larger numbers than expected/tunneling which is worrying since the Elf reinforcements will be expecting a dumb band of orcs in the open and could get ambushed. This also allows you to have your mini helms deep moment (as much as I dislike it) with the reinforcements at dawn but watchers have some foreshadowing rather than having to fill in every gap and full on ass pull later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Do you even watch the show, mate? When Arondir and Bronwyn travel to the village, Bronwyn asks Arondir where are the other elves and he replies: "They are probably looking for me" (or something to that extent), because they were supposed to leave already. So no, they were not in the tower.
    I'll end it here, and you let me know when you actually watch the show.
    So now I have to infer that Arondir saying "they are probably looking for me" means hours after he left EVERY elf went looking for him and got ambushed? No they wouldn't possible send his one buddy who has been working with him/knows him well to find him? The others don't have to pack up supplies/get ready to move out of the tower? REALLY? Okay mate, lets just agree to disagree, cause you are making my brain hurt. I have watched the show, I just don't turn my brain off when I do.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-09-19 at 07:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  7. #5247
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you see no reason why the Author of the work the show is based on is relevant? Isn't it strange how here you are arguing the source material and Tolkien can't be referenced in a discussion about the show while at the same time others have complained that the show doesn't have enough of Tolkien and the source material? Lmao.
    I'm not the one making those complaints though, so you can't call me out for being biased when you're clearly having a problem with other people's arguments. And I'm not putting any stipulations on what 'can or can not' be discussed, I'm literally telling you why I'm not doing what you're accusing me of doing.

    It's not strange at all that I'm criticizing the show for its own problems and not merely for 'veering from Tolkien's work'. I don't hold Tolkien's own work on any pedestal here, since I've always been a critic of anyone taking the Second Age and turning it into a show because it was really never set up to be one. It's an epic that spans thousands of years which is not really meant to be translated to the 'big screen'.

    Everything I've pointed out about RoP's flaws are directly a result of its own narrative. I'm not sure what else you're trying to project on to my argument here, perhaps you're getting me confused with other people you're arguing with?

    That is on top of your unrealistic expectation that a show has to define Dwarves, Elves, and offer a introductory class on its world prior to showing even the first episode. What show has every done that? Made its viewers an expert on its world prior to watching any or all of its episodes? This is again where your bias shows through because you are setting impossible expectations for the show then complaining when they are not met.
    Then imagine the impression of what a newcomer to the series would expect of Elves if all they see were them constantly being set up to fail, with only Galadriel and Arondir being the only characters who seemed to be capable of anything. I don't think you have enough forethought to consider this since your own bias has clouded your judgement, like you thinking the Elves actually hit the Snow Troll.

    I mean your failure to even admit to this mistake shows how stubborn and delusional you're capable of being to put unrealistic standards on other people's expectations. You'd argue that the show is free from criticisms because you don't even acknowledge them existing, you just change the show entirely to imply the Elves hit the Snow Troll and it was more than enough to establish that they were capable fighters and that there was never any problem with the way the show handles their portrayal.

    If you can't even admit a little mistake for us to reach a common ground, then I'm gonna continue illustrating how pointless your argument is considering you're ready to change the events of the show for the sake of arguing.

    How can you possibly realize my point if you're unwilling to acknowledge the things I'm criticizing even happened in the show?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-19 at 07:07 PM.

  8. #5248
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    So now I have to infer that Arondir saying "they are probably looking for me" means hours after he left EVERY elf went looking for him and got ambushed? REALLY? Okay mate, lets just agree to disagree, cause you are making my brain hurt.
    You've just said they were ALL in the tower even though in the show we learn that is not true. Like I've said, watch it before trying to discuss it, you'll do everyone a favor, because I don't have enough time to correct you.

  9. #5249
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I mean your failure to even admit to this mistake shows how stubborn and delusional you're capable of being to put unrealistic standards on other people's expectations.
    I acknowledged that them hitting it was an argument that isn't worth having and it looked like they never did even though they engaged in fighting the troll. That happened weeks ago and there is no point in your bringing it up as it has no relevance to anything being discussed now. Lmao. Let it go. Accept that you once again lost an argument online. I did despite your claims I didn't.

    No show is expected to give a primer on the entire world before it airs. You are assigning unrealistic expectations to this show. Why?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  10. #5250
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    You've just said they were ALL in the tower even though in the show we learn that is not true. Like I've said, watch it before trying to discuss it, you'll do everyone a favor, because I don't have enough time to correct you.
    1. Arondir says they are PROBABLY looking for him, he doesn't know.
    2. In no fucking world would they send every elf to look for him, and not 1/his buddy elf to look for him.
    3. He has been gone what, hours(?) at the point he said that.

    So you are again inferring things as we are shown nothing. You don't even get his buddy saying we were captured looking for you while they are in the orc trench, so the show doesn't support you again. Try again to defend this shitty work with 0 facts and 0 logic, I'll wait.

    Actually naw fuck this, you aren't worth wasting time on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  11. #5251
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    So you are again inferring things as we are shown nothing.
    The same thing you're doing... because we were not shown how it happened. Or are you using a crystal ball?
    At least I got my facts straight, while you can't even follow a simple plot (or just didn't watch it).

  12. #5252
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    You're ignoring one big difference here: the humans are being observed (for generations even) by the elves, while the orcs are not even known to exist. In all of those years of keeping an eye on the humans, the elves see nothing that would suggest they are cooperating with some malicious force (because, obviously, they don't). It would take a lot more cunning to deceive the elves while being observed than while living in the shadows, that's for sure. I highly doubt the humans we see in the show would be capable of that level of cunning, but that's just me.

    And yes, some events are timed conveniently, like in most plots known to the humanity (Lord of the Rings - the book - has some convenient moments too, ie. the eagles appearing just in time, but not only). But the watchers being called back at that particular point in time is just a single facet of a bigger story arc of elves growing complacent and oblivious to threats. It's convenient, but it keeps the story succint (and the show's already slow in the first episodes), so I can live with that.
    I have no problems with the timing and conveniences themselves, but it is all a symptom to a larger world-building problem - that being what the actual purpose of the Watchtower would be if they actually detected a problem. And we're being shown that the entire system has become so lax and complacent that it might not even have mattered if they were captured or if the Humans actually did something. The Elves are shown in a position to be easily exploited by someone who understood their craft - a villain like Adar. And that's why I used that example.

    Orcs are supposed to be just as incompetent, if not moreso, than Humans. That they are working so organized and sneakily under the noses of the Elves is another story contrivance that doesn't really work well in the overall world building. Elves are supposed to be believed to be far-seeing and aware. We even have Elrond establishing this in one episode with how far he can see and how much he is able to observe when Galadriel is sailing off.

    And for the Orcs to happen to do this all under the noses of the Elves and then suddenly reveal their hand by burning villages while still trying to be secret makes little sense overall. What does this say about Adar's plan? Did he want his Orcs to be revealed now? Did he know the Elves were about to head back and capture them intentionally? Or was it mere convenience that he was able to capture them? We don't really know. It's all quite ambiguous, and we can't tell what's actually happening in the plot other than it all being a sequence of conveniences for both the good guys and bad guys and the narrative overall.

    And it makes the whole arc feel like it lacks purpose, other than being set up to fail and be the catalyst for some bigger plot later.

    But why would the tower need any more reason to exist? Was it said somewhere that it's central to the plot...? Why would you give that tower more meaning than it has to have?
    That it is one of the major Point of View plotlines in this series/season is reason to point out that it's central to the plot. If it weren't, then I would argue that the show shouldn't even make this a Point of View arc at all. It could merely be a footnote in the some other sideplot that merely mentions 'A watchtower in the south was overtaken by Orcs!' or something to that effect. I would have no problem with that since it doesn't illustrate how complacent the Elves were at their job as we currently have with this POV arc.

  13. #5253
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Hence my north comment, as I believe the tower is in the northern end of the valley between the two mountains. Unless the orcs tunneled through mountains or went all the way around/over, they would have to tunnel/travel near the tower to get past them for a trap.
    Well that's the thing if the elves were already in travel the orc's wouldn't need to make it all the way up to the tower they could have traps set away from it that the elfs stumble into while heading home.

    assuming of course they the elf's don't go further north some how.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #5254
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I have no problems with the timing and conveniences themselves, but it is all a symptom to a larger world-building problem - that being what the actual purpose of the Watchtower would be if they actually detected a problem. And we're being shown that the entire system has become so lax and complacent that it might not even have mattered if they were captured or if the Humans actually did something. The Elves are shown in a position to be easily exploited by someone who understood their craft - a villain like Adar. And that's why I used that example.
    But why is that a world building problem? Why is it that you think a world can only be built when the bad guys don't exploit a weakness of the good guys? Why do you have to know the plan of Adar in order for it to be good world building? You are really reaching for excuses including things that aren't supported by the source material. As orcs are capable of doing things not incompetent by nature. Wait, I forgot. We can't bring the source material into a discussion about the show even though the show didn't reference orcs as only being incompetent. In fact it shows they are very competent. So you can bring in outside influences but no one else can. Strange.

    The entire thing would be a footnote if a main character was not there. The arc does show how complacent the elves were with their job which again shows you are ignoring the world building of the show for the sake of your argument. Arondir hears a potential threat but doesn't report it. Elves say that they have no purpose there anymore. They are happy to be withdrawn finally. All things that show the elves were not fanatically approaching their job at the time.
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  15. #5255
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I have no problems with the timing and conveniences themselves, but it is all a symptom to a larger world-building problem - that being what the actual purpose of the Watchtower would be if they actually detected a problem. And we're being shown that the entire system has become so lax and complacent that it might not even have mattered if they were captured or if the Humans actually did something. The Elves are shown in a position to be easily exploited by someone who understood their craft - a villain like Adar. And that's why I used that example.
    Yes, and things like that happen all the time. People get complacent (elves too) after a long time of peace and boredom. Why is it surprising? Years, and years, and years have passed, and the biggest threats the elves in the tower had to face were... what exactly? Some people in the village giving them hateful looks? It's not surprising at all that the tower ceased to serve its purpose. It would be unbelievable the other way around: if, after all of those years, the elves were vigilant to... again, what exactly? Orcs jumping out of the bushes after how many years of not being seen?

    Really, the show has some facepalm moments (like the whole Galadriel-in-the-sea shenanigans), but this one ain't it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Orcs are supposed to be just as incompetent, if not moreso, than Humans. That they are working so organized and sneakily under the noses of the Elves is another story contrivance that doesn't really work well in the overall world building.
    That would be a valid complaint if the orcs were working alone. They are not - they are being led by someone possibly more cunning, aware and far-seeing than the elves. Adar knows about them, but they know nothing of him. He has a clear advantage - and, just by looking at him, you know that HE knows what are the strenghts of the elves and how to work against them.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-09-19 at 07:48 PM.

  16. #5256
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I acknowledged that them hitting it was an argument that isn't worth having and it looked like they never did even though they engaged in fighting the troll. That happened weeks ago and there is no point in your bringing it up as it has no relevance to anything being discussed now. Lmao. Let it go. Accept that you once again lost an argument online. I did despite your claims I didn't.

    No show is expected to give a primer on the entire world before it airs. You are assigning unrealistic expectations to this show. Why?
    No one says they need to give a primer on the entire world.

    They need to give a primer on the key things they want to establish as being notable before they assert any subversion of expectations. Instead the show jumps straight to subverting expectations without giving the audience something to expect. That is the problem.

    Anything that the show draws expectations of is built off of a pre-established understanding that people have watched Lord of the Rings or understand the content. Otherwise, the story itself does a poor job of making the Elves seem competent at all, because as I've explained, they aren't actually even shown to be all that accomplished.

    And for you to embellish this criticism to saying the entire world needs a primer shows how much you're willing to dismiss this argument in bad faith. Where did I say the entire world needed a primer? I've been very clear on what needs to be primed, and it is the content of the main POVs that they're presenting. If we're talking about the Elves, then it's about the Elves.

    I'll even compare this to the Harfoots. They did a fantastic job of setting these guys up, and we know what they are capable of, what they're all about. They're accomplished in their own ways, and they're fallible in their own ways. They haven't just been completely set up to fail with an expectation that you'd know their accomplishments through other movies having established them. The Elves on the other hand have had far less set up for their accomplishments, even with the revelation that they won against Morgoth. More was said than shown about this, and even less was put to light on what they're capable of in warfare.

    As a point of reference, the Peter Jackson LOTR opening did this well by having that one scene where the Elves swing their swords in succession and cut down a bunch of Orcs. It's a cool moment that establishes the Elves' capability in warfare. Now I will contrast this to Rings of Power, which has no scene like this established for the Elves at all. None. We see them in combat, but never in any accomplished way. We see the aftermath of the war, but only focusing on their losses. Nothing about this shows the Elves at being the height of their power and accomplishment in this age. It's merely presented through exposition or implication through the King is announcing that evil has been rid from the world.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-19 at 07:38 PM.

  17. #5257
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    I kind of feel that unlike most I am on such a fence sitting position on this show, where I like it fine, but recognise the show has issues that annoy me. Imagine that, nuance.
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

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  18. #5258
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, the Elves in the Hobbit were quite incompetent in letting them slip, but they were still shown to be skillful for having been able to capture the Dwarves in the first place and being able to wage war with them at the Battle of 5 Armies.

    Where have we seen the Elves at the Watchtower actually doing anything competent prior to being captured? Seemed like they couldn't do anything useful. They never captured an Orc, they never saw any hints at their movement or tunneling, everything happened under their watch.

    The comparison here is if in the Hobbit, the Dwarves were able to infiltrate the Elven city, steal their wine barrels and continue without ever being noticed by Elves. Understand how incompetent the Elves would be in comparison?



    That's a huge fucking failure then. They had one job lol
    Let's not forget the Hobbit with the ring that made him invisible which is the whole reason they managed to escape at all lol

    The poster you're quoting conviniently left that part out which makes his comparison moot. Maybe the orcs have the ring of power.. Oh no !
    "In real life, unlike in Shakespeare, the sweetness of the rose depends upon the name it bears. Things are not only what they are. They are, in very important respects, what they seem to be"

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  19. #5259
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Really, the show has some facepalm moments (like the whole Galadriel-in-the-sea shenanigans), but this one ain't it.
    It is a symptom of a greater problem as I said. The fact that the watchtower itself is utterly pointless because it's not implied to be capable of subduing any evil even if it were to be observed.

    To merely say 'yeah it happens all the time, people get complacent' would then undermine the importance of Arondir as well. Do you consider his character a product of complacency then, and part of the problem? Because the show isn't doing this at all, and implying the Arondir is the only one who found out the Orc plot, who has seen the man behind the Orcs, and who lives to tell about it.

    It's a contrived plotline so far, and that, IMO, is a symptom of a greater problem.

    That would be a valid complaint if the orcs were working alone. They are not - they are being lead by someone possibly more cunning, aware and far-seeing than the elves. Adar knows about them, but they know nothing of him. He has a clear advantage - and, just by looking at him, you know that HE knows what are the strenghts of the elves and how to work against them.
    I'm hoping that they resolve it in a way that makes sense and feel earned. I don't have a good feeling about it based on how short-sighted much of the rest of the arc has been planned out though.

    Like as I said, if Adar is really playing 4D chess, why show his hand at a point in time when Arondir could have found out and escaped to notify the rest of the Elves? His capture was not guaranteed, nor was the capture of any of the other Elves at the time. Or why would he let Arondir escape, which ended up allowing him to save the kid who had the blade that they were looking for? There are so many odd little points of convenience that don't feel earned in the grand scheme of things. It's more like everyone is just incompetent and being thwarted by their own means. And I'm not sure how I would feel even if Adar ends up 'winning' at the end and obtaining the blade. Like, he could have gotten it much sooner if he didn't let Arondir go and save the kid who was going to be found by his Orcs anyways....

    As I said, the narrative feels contrived, and that is the current point of criticism I'm illustrating here. Even though there might not be anything as bad as what we've seen with Galadriel's plot, it's heading in that direction with what we know so far of the arc.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-19 at 07:56 PM.

  20. #5260
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    No one says they need to give a primer on the entire world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It builds heavily off the expectation that the audience must have watched Lord of the Rings to understand what an Elf or a Dwarf or a Wizard is. That is part of the problem I point out, because it doesn't do enough to establish these characters and their capabilities on their own prior to unfolding the story.
    You did. You said that it Elves, Dwarves, Wizards, etc all should have had their identities established prior to being shown on screen. You want them to build the world out prior to showing those parts of the world on screen. Nothing shown requires you to have watched Lord of the Rings to understand. You will get a deeper meaning of names, locations, and hints at characters by knowing the source material but it isn't required to understand anything about the show. You claim you don't want the entire world while also saying it is a requirement for the contents of the main characters arcs. Which is essentially the world as that is what those arcs exist in and the reference used to frame those arcs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    Let's not forget the Hobbit with the ring that made him invisible which is the whole reason they managed to escape at all lol The poster you're quoting conviniently left that part out which makes his comparison moot. Maybe the orcs have the ring of power.. Oh no !
    I didn't mention it because it wasn't relevant to the point. I was talking about the orcs chasing them to the doorstep of the elves. It wasn't about the escape from being prisoners. Strange how context matters, right? It was to point out how the elves were complacent even with "evil" crossing their own territory. It wasn't their concern because it wasn't a big threat since those were all supposed to be gone, right?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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