Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

When we're talking about Chekhov's gun, it's in defining whether this element in the story is necessary to the overall plot. And as I'm pointing out, it isn't. It's counter-intuitive because the story would play out exactly the same as if they weren't there at all. The Humans still aren't being helped the Elves, the Humans are still living their mediocre lives, the Orcs are still working in secrecy in tunnels to avoid the sun, the evil Adar is still left mysterious and nefarious.

The Humans don't need to be helped by elves in order to use their fortifications to protect themselves from a threat. Again it is necessary to the plot as told. Of course if they tell a different story that doesn't include it. Duh. Re-writing the story can exclude anything. The story, as told, has the watchtower as a necessary part of that story.

That's already been illustrated with Galadriel's arc with calling back the commanders and sending them off to Valinor. You realize that what we're calling necessary is a redundancy, right?

So it can't be shown with more then just Galadriel and her hunters? Strange how we go from you wanting world building to now you arguing that there is to much of it going on. Lol.

[bledgor]

It was a mistake to bind the stories together with the meteor landing. If the writers hand any foresight they could have had the first half of the season just follow each story then slowly reveal the chronological order of each of them, Then shift up a gear and have each plot line impact on the next. That at least would have been fun to watch and unravel, plus it would have got rid of the disparity in the time passing in each story.

Agreed, and it isn't even that hard to make it better (not saying great). Episdoe 1, have Galadriel do her thing then bring it to her ship being wrecked by the sea serpent (cause fuck the stupid ass suicide water jump + double deus ex machina) and she is stranded. You can have Arondir doing his thing and we get the back story of his. The Harfoots start a trek across the land for the seasons. Finally Elrond+ Celebrimbor go to Khazad-dum.

Then in episode 2/3 have some time pass, have Galadriel doing introspection as she is alone on the raft, can even have her being slightly delusional being alone and talking to herself, show the dwarfs laying the literal ground work for the tower in the background, the Harfoots doing whatever (I can't care about them enough to think of anything), Arondri learning from his commander that within the next few months they will be shipping back.

Finally in episode 4 (if they keep the same pacing which is bad) have Galadriel enter Numenor and not be an insufferable bitch, the mithril plot with Elrond/Durin IV as the tower is starting to shape up, the Harfoots meeting meteor man, and the elves + Arondir getting ready to leave when you get the villagers coming in (cause fuck the current story) to the tower with claims of Orcs, showing the head, and your mini helms deep BS they so clearly want.

Its like they took some of the worst ways to do the pacing/story development/time scaling, and decided it was best.

[Triceron]

The Humans don't need to be helped by elves in order to use their fortifications to protect themselves from a threat. Again it is necessary to the plot as told. Of course if they tell a different story that doesn't include it. Duh. Re-writing the story can exclude anything. The story, as told, has the watchtower as a necessary part of that story.

And that's the point of Chekhov's gun, deciding whether this element is necessary to the story and whether it should be removed.

The watchtower itself may be necessary as a setting for refuge for the Humans, but the Elves being at the Watchtower and using it for its intended purpose to survey the lands for Evil is not. Are you confused at something here?

So it can't be shown with more then just Galadriel and her hunters? Strange how we go from you wanting world building to now you arguing that there is to much of it going on. Lol.

Yes, if they already showed it once with Galadriel and her hunters, then that's all that's necessary to impy complacency. Anything else would be redundant.

And this has nothing to do with World Building since that is a matter of creating a setting that feels authentic and real to the story. This has nothing to do with the Elves at the Watchtower being a redundancy to show the complacency of Elves (which I should remind you, is what YOU'RE asserting as a necessary reason for them to be in the narrative). That you're even confusing it makes your argument suspect. Do you even know what you're talking about?


The entire criticism of the Elves being at the Watchtower is pointing out that they lack purpose to the overall story.
1- They don't offer any worldbuilding because their purpose and actions are counter-intuitive to the plot. They're stationed there to survey evil, yet they are unable to do so until it's already too late. This makes the world feel less authentic because their entire role in the narrative is utterly pointless, and wouldn't be much different had they not been there at all.
2- They are not necessary to show the complacency of the Elves since that is already been clearly defined by Galadriel's arc.

How is it that you're surprised that the two points both serve to illustrate how purposeless it is the Elves are actually there in the Southlands. Do you actually understand the point of the criticism, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

[rhorle]

The watchtower itself may be necessary as a setting for refuge for the Humans, but the Elves being at the Watchtower do not. Are you confused at something here?

So then it isn't checkov's gun by your own admission. Crazy how rabidly you defend it to only agree with me that it isn't. We were talking about the watchtower and not just the elves at the tower. Notice how you edited out the part of that post that brought up Chekhov's gun? Strange if you were always correct, right? Lmao.

The tower is a defensible base of operations for the area. It can offer a vantage point but doesn't fail just because it doesn't see every last inch of land they oversea. That doesn't even happen in the real world and it wasn't until the advent of satellite imagery that it became a real capability.

The problem is it doesn't see anything at all. Literally Chekhov's gun failing to fire.

[Triceron]

So then it isn't checkov's gun by your own admission. Crazy how rabidly you defend it to only agree with me that it isn't. We were talking about the watchtower and not just the elves at the tower. Notice how you edited out the part of that post that brought up Chekhov's gun? Strange if you were always correct, right? Lmao.

Except the whole context of your quoted statements was about the Elves being stationed there and using it as a base of operations.

You and IC were talking about it being an ELVEN base of operations, and talking about the vantage point in terms of Elves using it to survey the lands for evil, not the Humans taking refuge.

That is why I made it clear that the Watchtower being there for the Humans would be fine if it were the only purpose of the location, like if it were an abandoned Watchtower from ages past. My entire point is there was no reason to have Elves stationed there actively using the Watchtower, while having it not find anything. The Elves have either left or got captured/died by the time the Orcs are going to attack the tower. That is what I meant by saying The watchtower doesn't see anything at all, like Chekhov's gun failing to fire.

It's funny how you're trying to change the context of the original statement to fit some cherry picking comment you later find convenient to you.

[rhorle]

The context is the Elves using it as a base of operations, not Humans. That is why I made it clear that the Watchtower being there for the Humans would be fine if were the only purpose of the location, like if it were an abandoned Watchtower from ages past.

The elves being there is one of the reasons why it is necessary to the story told. The Humans taking shelter is another reason. It only needs one valid reason for it to not be a chekhov's gun. Right. I was talking with another poster about the visibility the tower would have. Its location, and that visibility, doesn't change if the elves were never there. Lmao.

I didn't change the context of the original statement. You just can't accept when you are wrong.

[s_bushido]

That is why I made it clear that the Watchtower being there for the Humans would be fine if it were the only purpose of the location, like if it were an abandoned Watchtower from ages past. My entire point is there was no reason to have Elves stationed there actively using the Watchtower, while having it not find anything. The Elves have either left or got captured/died by the time the Orcs are going to attack the tower. That is what I meant by saying The watchtower doesn't see anything at all, like Chekhov's gun failing to fire.

The purpose of the watchtower while it was occupied by the elves was to emphasize their complacency. Culminating in their order to withdraw right as the orcs begin to openly move against the people of the area.

Your being too dense and/or intentionally obtuse to recognize that is not a criticism against the writing of the show. Sorry.

[frn1]

Adar: I need you to deliver this very important message.
Also Adar: Heres your weapons, because i will not tell my orcs this and they will try to kill you, GL.

I guess its not only the orcs but also their arrows that cant stand the sun because they just went up in thin air.

Galadriel.. she used like what, 1/20 of her strength and effort to dispose of 4-5 numenorean guards. They could at least have shown her struggle a bit, take a punch or something. It doesnt do the character any favors being this overpowered. She just gets more unlikeable for every episode.

[Rageonit]

Again, that isn't even necessary considering it's been shown in the plot that they didn't even find anything to the point where they were about to leave.

When we're talking about Chekhov's gun, it's in defining whether this element in the story is necessary to the overall plot. And as I'm pointing out, it isn't. It's counter-intuitive because the story would play out exactly the same as if they weren't there at all. The Humans still aren't being helped the Elves, the Humans are still living their mediocre lives, the Orcs are still working in secrecy in tunnels to avoid the sun, the evil Adar is still left mysterious and nefarious.

Discussing things like the necessity of certian plot elements to the whole story without the full context of said story is meaningless. We don't know if the elven presence in the Southlands is a Chekhov's gun or not, because we don't know the role they still have to play in the future. One can imagine Arondir's presence is necessary for the story, because he's the only one capable of escaping and carrying the news of the orcs presence to the elves. If he dies in captivity (and therefore doesn't push the story forward) - than yes, that means he's a Chekhov's gun. Now let us consider the chance that one of the main characters of the show dies in season one without doing anything of note. This will not happen. Arondir has still a mayor role to play, and whatever that role is, it will justify his presence both in the story and in the Southlands.

I can't even fathom why one would already deem his presence in the story meaningless, when the story has hardly even started to unravel. You know that you can do it to any character in any story after reading (or watching) only a chapter or two, right? What's the point of that? Do you do it for the off chance that it happens to be true, so you can come back here claiming: I told you so? Weird thing to do, to be honest. Imagine a book club where people meet to discuss the relevance of various story elements to the whole plot, but only after reading 1/4 of the book. I mean... why?! Has to be one of the weirdest ways to waste time I've ever heard of. I mean, you do you, but I don't think anyone should take that seriously.

It's clear that you're not arguing in good faith. We can talk about certain character's role in the story so far on the basis of what we know and we can extrapolate on that, trying to guess what kind of role they still have to play; but to write a character off completely without knowing the full story (or even half of the story) is an example of bad intent, and being eloquent is not enough to hide it. It's neither interesting nor meaningful to discuss in that spirit.

[Dhrizzle]

The result of the poor setup is having a lack of acknowledgement that the watchtower as a place of significant importance, and the Elves being all that important in retrospect. In repeat viewings of this show, I'm not going to ever see the Elves stationed here as being worth their salt, because they never really amounted to anything in the first place. Make sense? Everything I'm talking about here is in context to what the show is actually presenting to the viewer.

The tower isn't a place of significant importance, it's an outpost near a backwater that's being abandoned at the start of the series. It isn't Minas Ithil or anything. You don't need detailed histories of every background character, it's just weird to expect it.

My criticism points out that the lack of explanation of the purpose of the watchtower leaves people guessing. It's too ambiguous to draw any reasonable conclusions for what would actually happen if shit went south, and with that being the case most viewers don't know what's going to happen with this arc other than it being driven to a mini Helms-deep type scenario. There's not enough information to draw any reasonable conclusion to what could get them out of their situation.

The tower is a small outpost used by the Elves to keep an eye on the Southland people whose ancestors followed Morgoth. It doesn't need a detailed history. We don't need extensive details of it's procedures and it isn't anything like Helm's Deep.

Also you don't need an obvious MacGuffin or Deus ex Machkina being signposted, it's possible to just watch the show and find out what happens. If you actually want to speculate there's still plenty of room to do so.

I'm not disappointed or upset by this at all, I'm merely pointing out the obvious oversights of the narrative. Anything we discuss about this arc moving forward would be based on pure speculation. Could they still signal for help with Arondir there? Could Arondir muster them to leave and find a better refuge? Could they be saved by the Numenoreans and Galadriel who miraculously travel there immediately? It's all pure speculation at this point. There's a lack of foreshadowing to imply any reasonable outcomes at this moment, and I think that's poor setup of the series. A good series leads the viewers to be able to draw at least some sort of reasonable conclusion to what could or might happen. Right now we can't do that at all with the Watchtower, and there's not enough information to reasonable theorize how they would get out of such a situation without wildly speculating one.

So far the series has shown they would be unlikely to fight off the orcs even with Arondir. Fleeing is a possibility, relief from the Numenoreans too if the different stories are running at different times. Another possibility is the Southlanders joining Adar, or refusing and getting wiped out. Notice we can speculate about these without detailed knowledge of the tower's procedures.

I'm not sure why you consider expressing criticism to be an expression of disappointment or cause to be upset. It's kind of insulting, really.

Sorry, but you are devoting an awful lot of words to what boils down to "I want more background about these relatively unimportant people and places."

My argument is that if the viewer is intended to value the team of Elves as being strong and capable, they should establish that in some way before the fight with the Snow Troll that reveals they are all completely incapable of dealing with the problem in front of them in any constructive way.

Why is it important for you to value them so much? They're background characters that play a minor role in the story right at the beginning. The show isn't going to spend time detailing the background of everyone who wanders on screen for more than 3 minutes.

If you watch the show more than once, and you know the Elves are just there as cannon fodder, then they'll forever be cannon fodder. Like, we can talk about them as much as we want now and they'd still be cannon fodder in the context of this show because they literally won't be back to redeem their image. They're forever established in this series as being useless tools that accomplished nothing and only served to hold Galadriel back from her greater purpose. That's what they amount to.

I don't think cannon fodder is the correct term but I get what you mean. Yes they're background characters that establish Galadriel as being more driven in the pursuit of Sauron than the typical Elves and also a stronger fighter. They don't need to be anything more than that and if you are do desperate for their back-stories then write it yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm literally explaining its context in the narrative.

It literally sees nothing that it's meant to see. The show literally has the Watchtower being unable to see the very thing it's meant to look out for. That is not exaggeration, that is literally how the plot unfolded and the reason the Elves were all going to leave. They literally saw nothing until it was too late, and what they did see was literally a matter of plot convenience stringing along Arondir to find out because the entire arc is centered around him.

Dude watch the show... the whole point is the evil forces not making any overt moves until the good guys had grown complacent and stopped being vigilant. There's a whole speech about it from Galadriel in the first episode.

Except it's not necessary for the Elves to be there at all. That is the point. They're only there because they wanted an Elf main character there, and had no other way to insert one into the story other than to put Elves at the Watchtower. That is counterintuitive to world-building because it's Chekhov's Gun. They were completely unnecessary to the plot because the plot would literally be the same if there were no Elves there at all and they'd all went home instead of being captured. They serve no purpose to the story.

Again, watch the show and these things will be explained. The Elves are there because the Southlanders are descendents of Men who followed Morgoth and there is no trust. It's the source of the resentment that looks like it will drive at least a few of them into the service of Sauron. This is important to the plot.

Would the story would be any different if Arondir were a Human character instead?

Yes, there wouldn't be the friction between him and the Men.

Would it even be any different if Arondir were not there at all?

Yes, Theo would be dead and the black sword hilt in the hands of Adar.

[Tekko]

This show just gets more frustrating to watch each week, since it's LotR I'll continue to torture myself.

[Biomega]

This show just gets more frustrating to watch each week, since it's LotR I'll continue to torture myself.

And that's why we don't get new good IP, only terrible rehashes of established IP - it seems to work

[caractacus]

And that's why we don't get new good IP, only terrible rehashes of established IP - it seems to work

I think also this is partly due to laziness on behalf of the viewership. There are a lot of good original shows coming out from all over the world you just have to be bothered to discover them and also read subtitles. I might watch the occasional western TV show but generally I have given up with them, there's a lot better stuff out there worthy of my time.

[DarkAmbient]

Adar: I need you to deliver this very important message.
Also Adar: Heres your weapons, because i will not tell my orcs this and they will try to kill you, GL.

I guess its not only the orcs but also their arrows that cant stand the sun because they just went up in thin air.

Galadriel.. she used like what, 1/20 of her strength and effort to dispose of 4-5 numenorean guards. They could at least have shown her struggle a bit, take a punch or something. It doesnt do the character any favors being this overpowered. She just gets more unlikeable for every episode.

I can handle a character being overpowered but at least present it in a believable way. That prison scene was laughable.

Also wasn't it funny that all of the orcs suddenly ran out of arrows when they reached the edge of the wood while Arondir and co stood defenceless in open ground...

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

If that watchtower is overseeing the Southlands that are to become Mordor, it might be intended to become Barad-Dur itself later in the show?

[rhorle]

Also wasn't it funny that all of the orcs suddenly ran out of arrows when they reached the edge of the wood while Arondir and co stood defenceless in open ground...

They didn't though. They are shown to be shooting arrows again. It is just hard to see because of the sun. There is even closed caption of "[arrows whooshing]". 51:05 if you want to check yourself. The arrows start after the orcs roar and Arondir turns to help the two others run.

- - - Updated - - -

If that watchtower is overseeing the Southlands that are to become Mordor, it might be intended to become Barad-Dur itself later in the show?

They are non-canon locations Amazon created just for the show so I doubt it would be Barad-dur. All Amazon gave is east of the mountains that border western Mordor. I'd imagine it would be south of Minas Morgul in order to remove it from any canon location but it could be anywhere along the mountain range. Unless I missed where Amazon gave more clarification.

[DarkAmbient]

The orcs reach the edge of the wood and Arondir & co stand there for a full half minute while the orcs snarl at them. It's not until just before they decide to turn and run that a couple of arrows conveniently miss them. Just another poorly done moment in the show.

[Ghost of Cow]

The orcs reach the edge of the wood and Arondir & co stand there for a full half minute while the orcs snarl at them. It's not until just before they decide to turn and run that a couple of arrows conveniently miss them. Just another poorly done moment in the show.

Yeah, it was kinda silly. Even if you think your opponents are having a hard time aiming you don't just chill out in the open for no reason.

I guess it was supposed to be all dramatic with the sun rising and whatnot, but eh.

[DarkAmbient]

It's only a minor thing really. It happens in lots of shows/movies. Even in the original Fellowship film when they're escaping Moria the orc archers always miss. It's one of those BS things that you just sort have to roll your eyes at, but I wish the directors would actually have the good guys wounded to add a bit of realism to it.

[InfiniteCharger]

Right. How do you think something like that can be missed when Amazon is writing the story. It isn't written by Tolkien so of course things are being created for the show. Just as Jackson took liberties for his two trilogies.

The tower is a defensible base of operations for the area.

The 'tower' is shown in posters and the series as an observation point to provide early warning of an attack. But OK, when did we see that happen in this series where the tower was used as a base of defense? We didn't. The elves got captured, meaning whatever it was designed to do, ultimately it failed. The fact that it happened off screen means we can only guess how it happened and whether or not the tower actually served that purpose or not as you describe it.

It can offer a vantage point but doesn't fail just because it doesn't see every last inch of land they oversea. That doesn't even happen in the real world and it wasn't until the advent of satellite imagery that it became a real capability. An alternative to Eregion? What are you smoking? A small elven outpost is not an alternative to Eregion. We actually have Eregion shown on screen. Lmao.

Have you even watched the show or are you just argue from influencers and articles?

It is an alternative to Eregion becasue the core of the narrative of the creation of the rings of power was centered on Eregion. That is where most of the key events took place and Eregion was created explicitly for the purpose of being a bulwark against Sauron. This is why he targeted it and used it against them. Therefore, if they have made up this new tower as a key part of the narrative for this part of the second age as a new bulwark against Sauron then it is an alternative to simply focusing on the story of Eregion as already told in the lore. But this series is more interested in keeping things mysterious than actually telling a story. So the tower didn't serve its purpose in the world as it should because the writers needed to keep the presence of the orcs a secret, while at the same time showing the audience that the orcs are very real and a threat. But in showing the audience that the orcs are real and a threat, they are also telling the world of middle earth as well, which is why they had to come up with these contrivances to keep their presence still somehow secret.

Also, keep in mind that Sauron was able to appear at Eregion because the Haradrim and other forces he was amassing in his armies were kept far to the South and out of view of Eregion, the Elves and the Numenoreans. It was a key reason why he was able to arrive at Eregion in disguise and not be suspected(except by Galadriel). Once he is revealed as Suaron, he musters his forces to attack and there is no more secrecy. So the secrecy in the original lore served a logical purpose and moved the story along. The secrecy here in this series really serves noting and doesn't really move anything along because their activities don't signal Sauron's return to the wider world. And it cannot because it would be hard to have Sauron show up in disguise while having his presence revealed and known to all in middle earth. They would be wary and on their defenses. But we will see how this series plays out.