Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[s_bushido]

Ah, I see we're once again whining about aspects of the show that the creators specifically mentioned in the lead-up to its release. These are supposed to be more nascent orcs, who haven't had the thousands of years of battles to toughen them up in the same way that "modern" orcs in the LotR era are. It's why they're relatively pale, wear light clothes, and don't have chunks of metal bolted everywhere on their bodies.

And this is all seemingly ignoring the Uruk-hai...who were notable in part because of their ability to move in the sunlight without issue. Whether that's because it would physically injure regular orcs, of if it was more a psychological thing is basically irrelevant.

But it is funny that you keep bringing up vampires, as if there aren't myriad interpretations of those, and the different things that weaken and/or kill them.

[Syegfryed]

Ah, I see we're once again whining about aspects of the show that the creators specifically mentioned in the lead-up to its release. These are supposed to be more nascent orcs, who haven't had the thousands of years of battles to toughen them up in the same way that "modern" orcs in the LotR era are. It's why they're relatively pale, wear light clothes, and don't have chunks of metal bolted everywhere on their bodies.

Oh yes, lets ignore the bullshit just because the creators specifically mentioned they were going to do bullshit, thats some great logic right there.

"more nascent orcs" would not be vampires, they do not burn in the sunlight, they are pale because you know it, wink wink, and they they wear clothes to protect from the sun, which is perfectly fine, but they just ignore that they have it and were covered in that scene

And this is all seemingly ignoring the Uruk-hai...who were notable in part because of their ability to move in the sunlight without issue. Whether that's because it would physically injure regular orcs, of if it was more a psychological thing is basically irrelevant.

Uruk-hai were hybrids of orcs and men, its something different.

But it is funny that you keep bringing up vampires, as if there aren't myriad interpretations of those, and the different things that weaken and/or kill them.

Oh, so orcs are supposed to be an interpretation of vampires now, nice.

[rhorle]

I see you try to keep lying to hold the argument, trying to lecture me about orcs, Dislike the Sun does not mean you are a vampire and you burn from it, neither mean you don't go tog et your prey that is helpless right in front of you that are holding the thing you were looking for

The quote from Tolkien has Orcs from Moria not wanting to be out in the sun. They are forced to. It isn't a lie to provide you with Tolkien's work. If you actually knew his work as you claim then you wouldn't still be arguing about Orcish dislike of the sun. Tolkien never out right confirms if the sun physically weakens them though he does state over and over that they don't like the sun and can refuse to go out in it unless forced.

What about this line from the hobbit: "They don't like the sun: it makes their legs wobble and their heads giddy."?

[Tentim]

Ah, I see we're once again whining about aspects of the show that the creators specifically mentioned in the lead-up to its release. These are supposed to be more nascent orcs, who haven't had the thousands of years of battles to toughen them up in the same way that "modern" orcs in the LotR era are. It's why they're relatively pale, wear light clothes, and don't have chunks of metal bolted everywhere on their bodies.

And this is all seemingly ignoring the Uruk-hai...who were notable in part because of their ability to move in the sunlight without issue. Whether that's because it would physically injure regular orcs, of if it was more a psychological thing is basically irrelevant.

But it is funny that you keep bringing up vampires, as if there aren't myriad interpretations of those, and the different things that weaken and/or kill them.

I mean someone telling you they are going to fuck up doesn't really negate the fact they fucked up...

[InfiniteCharger]

Again. The tower where the rings were forged has been shown on the show. It is what Elrond recruited the dwarves to build. It is not the same tower that Arondir was stationed at. Sauron also recruited humans to his army in the second age and the show is exploring that. It hasn't replaced the Eregion story. You keep arguing your own head canon rather then what has been displayed on the show.

Eregion and the story about how the rings actually get forged will be a completely separate story that takes place later on in other seasons. This is obvious from what the series is showing us. You haven't disputed that. This tower and those characters are a totally brand new made up narrative that is important for this series that has nothing to do with Eregion at all. There has been no connection between this tower, Eregion and those Silvan elves at all in this series. So literally this location as a flashpoint for an orc battle has absolutely nothing to do with Eregion and how the rings of power were created. Which means it is an alternative location separate from Eregion for the purpose of the story that Amazon is telling. So you actually are in agreement.

[rhorle]

Eregion and the story about how the rings actually get forged will be a completely separate story that takes place later on in other seasons. This is obvious from what the series is showing us.

Right. So then the Watchtower in Mordor is not a replacement for Eregion and the forging of the rings as you claimed. Congrats on coming full circle and arguing against your own point. Lmao.

[InfiniteCharger]

Right. So then the Watchtower in Mordor is not a replacement for Eregion and the forging of the rings as you claimed. Congrats on coming full circle and arguing against your own point. Lmao.

Wrong. Because there was no "other" battle against the Orcs that took place at a tower in an area near what would become Mordor in the original lore. When Sauron entered Eregion as Annatar, his armies were still hidden and his whereabouts as Sauron completely unknown. Everything then took place in Eregion as he showed the Elves how to make the rings of power and then sent his forces to attack and destroy Eregion once he was unmasked. And that was the key turning point in the second age where his presence and threat became known to everyone. So this "other" story separate from Eregion involving a battle in this series is an alternative to focusing entirely on the events at Eregion, so by not focusing on Eregion, it is an alternative to it. By doing this they are effectively saying that Sauron's presence was made clear via this battle prior to the rings of power being created. As such, it means this entire sequence of events is an alternative to all the events primarily taking place within Eregion.

[rhorle]

Wrong. Because there was no "other" battle against the Orcs that took place at a tower in an area near what would become Mordor in the original lore.

And? It still doesn't mean it is a replacement for Eregion and Eriador being attacked by Sauron. It is merely displaying another part of Sauron expanding his influence across Middle Earth. It is also hilarious that you are know coming to the conclusion that the show is an alternate sequence of events. Amazon has never hidden that the show is compressing the time line and changing the sequence of events that happen.

[Triceron]

That's my understanding of the conversation right now.

Is the Watchtower arc necessary to the main narrative of Galadriel's quest to unveil Sauron's plot in the Southlands. This is the main theme since the first episode, it's about finding and uncovering a secret plot. The main plot of the first season is in finding evidence that Sauron is still out there.



Based on what we've seen so far, the Watchtower Arc seems to aim to be the evidence that Galadriel will need to convince the world that Sauron is a true threat to the world.
What the show is doing right now seems to be building up to an Attack on the Watchtower to become the catalyst for Galadriel to muster forces for a future "War of the Last Alliance". Even if she is not present at the attack, the news of the Orcs showing their hand will be exactly what Galadriel needs.

With that in mind, is the Southland arc even necessary then to 'emphasize' the main narrative being told by Galadriel's arc? Do we really need to see the 'Attack of the Watchtower'? Galadriel's arc has already shown her to be able to rally forces to investigate the growing evil without even having concrete proof of it existing. All the evidence she currently has is questionable at best (Halbrand could be lying about Orcs, she has no way of confirming the truth of the Spy notes), but the story presents it as being concrete enough to rally the Elf-hating Numenoreans to follow her lead and investigate the Southlands. It's just a matter of time until they find out the truth in the Southlands anyways. The Watchtower itself would be a footnote in her story, one that isn't even needed to confirm what she's already suspecting.

And the root of this line of thought is in thinking how this all really serves the narrative the show aims to tell, because as pointed out many times, there are very deep problems with narrative progression and pacing and part of this is because there are too many POV arcs in the show to follow.

[Syegfryed]

The quote from Tolkien has Orcs from Moria not wanting to be out in the sun. They are forced to. It isn't a lie to provide you with Tolkien's work. If you actually knew his work as you claim then you wouldn't still be arguing about Orcish dislike of the sun. Tolkien never out right confirms if the sun physically weakens them though he does state over and over that they don't like the sun and can refuse to go out in it unless forced.

the only lie is you distorting tolkien words to fit yours and the showrunners narrative.

I never argued they like or they do not like the sun, that is common sense, they being vampires that get hurt in the sun? thats asinine bs that you think somehow it make sense.

the show already made canon that they can still go out in the sun when Pelégolas cut down their barracks, the show already made canon they can went in the sun to get prisoner who rebel, the show made it canon they can endure the sun if they are covered with cloth, Then they can and should go into the sun to look for the weapon they were looking for for so long

What about this line from the hobbit: "They don't like the sun: it makes their legs wobble and their heads giddy."?

that for sure what happened in the show, they just got giddy... oh wait, they didn't, it shows they got full on burn, but just when the showrunners think is cool

[rhorle]

the only lie is you distorting tolkien words to fit yours and the showrunners narrative.

I have not. I have said that orcs do not like the sunlight which is exactly what Tolkien has said. This also started with you complaining that the orcs were afraid of the sun. All you are doing is demonstrating that you are the one lying because you did state they don't like the sun. Of course orcs can go out in the sun. It is that they don't like to go out in the sun.

i don't think the arrows missing is a problem, but the orcs being made vampires afraid of the sun not going for then

[Triceron]

Of course orcs can go out in the sun. It is that they don't like to go out in the sun.

Actually, we don't know if the RoP Orcs physically can or not.

We've only seen one instance of them being exposed to the sunlight without cover, and the show depicts them smoking and wincing in pain. Does that imply they can go out in the sun and they just don't like it? We can't say for sure. The show hasn't depicted it if so.

[rhorle]

We've only seen one instance of them being exposed to the sunlight without cover, and the show depicts them smoking and wincing in pain. Does that imply they can go out in the sun and they just don't like it? We can't say for sure. The show hasn't depicted it if so.

It has in episode 3. Orcs out in the sun shoot the elf trying to escape. Others have their face (and what appears to be fingers from fingerless gloves) exposed to the sun with nothing happening. So it is clear that Orcs can go out in the sun. What isn't clear is how much of an effect the sun has given the drastically different reactions we have seen. In one instance the skin burns and in others skin doesn't react.

Also in the trivia for episode 3 we have "It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun. Some orcs can endure its light better than others, but they all hate it and only seldom will they journey in the open while the Sun shines (Book III, Chapter 4). It references Scene 23 at 21:35.

Episode 4 also shows an orc running from Theo in the "light". So it may have just been the timing of the bright sun that stopped the orcs and not just day time. As these should be the some of the same orcs that chase them later.

It could very well be that these orcs are created for the show just like their father, Adar, is. So they might have different properties. Possibly referenced in Episode 2, under trivia, where they note a line from Appendix F "There are many kinds of orcs of differing sizes, best suited for specific purposes. They were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days". This also might indicate that only some of the Orcs burn but not all of them.

[Syegfryed]

I have not. I have said that orcs do not like the sunlight which is exactly what Tolkien has said. This also started with you complaining that the orcs were afraid of the sun. All you are doing is demonstrating that you are the one lying because you did state they don't like the sun. Of course orcs can go out in the sun. It is that they don't like to go out in the sun.

And not liking the sun does not mean they cannot go there and get the people

not liking the sun does not mean they are vampires like the show pretend then to be

If they don't like the sun, and still can go there, ti makes shit sense for then TO NOT go there and grab then, ESPECIALLY when they are covered, so again, ti is a bullshit narrative that does not fit tolkien view

[Triceron]

It could very well be that these orcs are created for the show just like their father, Adar, is. So they might have different properties. Possibly referenced in Episode 2, under trivia, where they note a line from Appendix F "There are many kinds of orcs of differing sizes, best suited for specific purposes. They were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days". This also might indicate that only some of the Orcs burn but not all of them.

Right, so what we're shown may be inconsistent, but it's clear that some are being depicted like vampires, in actually taking physical damage from the sun. And otherwise, the plot has them not chase main characters into the sun because of an avid dislike for it in general, with the implication that some take physical damage.

In Syegfryed's case, he's been clear about talking about those who do take damage (the vampires) and calling that out as a creative depiction that he doesn't agree with. I mean, that's all he's saying really.

I personally don't think it's that bad of a depiction, and it could go either way and it doesn't really matter to me. The show wants to show them getting hurt by the sun, that's fine to me. They decided to make all the Orcs white or pale, that's fine to me too, and some people will hate that and that's fine too. I don't see reason to try and prove someone is lying when they're really just making the same points that we're acknowledging here; that the show DOES depict them taking harm from sun exposure, and that a dislike or fear of the sun is a reason why they don't venture into broad daylight even when their goal is slightly beyond their reach.

[Syegfryed]

Right, so what we're shown may be inconsistent, but it's clear that some are being depicted like vampires, in actually taking physical damage from the sun. And otherwise, the plot has them not chase main characters into the sun because of an avid dislike for it in general, with the implication that some take physical damage.

In Syegfryed's case, he's been clear about talking about those who do take damage (the vampires) and calling that out as a creative depiction that he doesn't agree with. I mean, that's all he's saying really.

I personally don't think it's that bad of a depiction, and it could go either way and it doesn't really matter to me. The show wants to show them getting hurt by the sun, that's fine to me. They decided to make all the Orcs white or pale, that's fine to me too, and some people will hate that and that's fine too. I don't see reason to try and prove someone is lying when they're really just making the same points that we're acknowledging here; that the show DOES depict them taking harm from sun exposure, and that a dislike or fear of the sun is a reason why they don't venture into broad daylight even when their goal is slightly beyond their reach.

It is a bad depiction because one they are orcs not vampires, two it being a vampire - taking direct damage from the sun - does not fit tolkien narrative, but mostly because the show is so inconsistent about it

one scene you have orcs who burn in the sun, others being fine, others being fine with cloth, It is basicaly two different kinds/breeds orcs in the same group, and it just happened that all of those there are the vampire ones

[rhorle]

And not liking the sun does not mean they cannot go there and get the people

Duh. However it does explain why they didn't go get people with the sun rising. If they don't like the sun it makes sense for them to not go there if something isn't around to force them. It again fits Tolkien narrative that orcs are hesitant to go in the sun but can if forced too. You can ignore the quotes from tolkien that indicate this all you want. All that shows is that you can't handle the truth of Tolkien's work and ignore is just so you can complain.

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I don't see reason to try and prove someone is lying when they're really just making the same points that we're acknowledging here; that the show DOES depict them taking harm from sun exposure, and that a dislike or fear of the sun is a reason why they don't venture into broad daylight even when their goal is slightly beyond their reach.

They keep denying that "Fear of the sun" makes sense or is something Tolkien said. It is like you understand what they are saying but have the need to be contrary so you stop a step short just to keep arguing against something I've said. Vampire and Fear of the sun are two distinct arguments from him and what has been argued is the "afraid of the sun" portion. Not the "burning up vampire" portion.

i don't think the arrows missing is a problem, but the orcs being made vampires afraid of the sun not going for then

[Triceron]

They keep denying that "Fear of the sun" makes sense or is something Tolkien said. It is like you understand what they are saying but have the need to be contrary so you stop a step short just to keep arguing against something I've said. Vampire and Fear of the sun are two distinct arguments from him and what has been argued is the "afraid of the sun" portion. Not the "burning up vampire" portion.

No, you're just cherrypicking that statement and arguing over nothing.

Again, his point of complaint was over the vampire part and he clarified it to you in a reply, so you continuing this is just you arguing over your own deliberate choice to mince words and argue over nothing important.

As I said, both of you have agreed that Orcs dislike and fear the sun. His statement was about Orcs being depicting as disliking and fearing the sun because it causes physical harm. For you to cherry pick fear of the sun out of context is pointless.

[rhorle]

No, you're just cherrypicking that statement and arguing over nothing.

I am not cherry picking anything. Are you this desperate to be part of a discussion that you'll make up your own argument just to be involved? They keep arguing two different things that fear of the sun doesn't make sense, or fit with tolkien's work, and that the sun damaging them doesn't fit. I've taken issue with one but not the other.

If they don't like the sun, and still can go there, ti makes shit sense for then TO NOT go there and grab then, ESPECIALLY when they are covered, so again, ti is a bullshit narrative that does not fit tolkien view

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https://twitter.com/theoneringnet/st...45779921276928

This seems to indicate that the Orcs are different for the show and Adar might not even be allied with Sauron at this point. Also I think the interview linked in the tweet chain references the Orcs wearing baby dragon skin to protect themselves.

We're more of a time when they've kind of come out of Middle-earth, they've been squashed back down underground, and they're spending a lot of time in hiding and caves and tunnels and hidden away. We played on the lighter skin tone, a bit like someone's in the dark all the time. They're hidden away… there’s that whole sunlight thing that we are now beginning to see as they come out and suffering with the bright sun. Just like anyone who's never been exposed to UV, coming out onto the surface and having to deal with their skin's reaction to that. That's where a lot of it came through. So it was… you might say, baby-like. It’s the first birthing of the orcs coming out into the world of Middle-earth, to dominate again. And therefore, with that, comes their skin issues, their skin coloration, and thinner and more sinewy, and less bulky. https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/lotr-...f-women-beards

So the burning of the skin is "exaggerating" the impact of sunlight after so long away from it. Didn't the orcs have a similar effect when the first sunrise happened? I can find the actual text from Tolkien but some reference burning after never having been in light before. The Orcs are created to be different for the show but still with in the confines of Tolkien's lore.

[Triceron]

I am not cherry picking anything. Are you this desperate to be part of a discussion that you'll make up your own argument just to be involved? They keep arguing two different things that fear of the sun doesn't make sense, or fit with tolkien's work, and that the sun damaging them doesn't fit. I've taken issue with one but not the other.

Tell me Rhorle, how is any of what you're arguing about good discussion?

You're literally just shit posting now. That's what I've been pointing out. I don't need to make up any argument to show this, I've been trying to explain why there's nothing for you to actually argue about here.

Syegfreyd isn't making g a point that they don't fear the sun, he's saying your explanations of how the show depicts Orcs in the situations he's complaining about don't make sense to him for how he thinks they should act. And that's just his opinion. Nothing that implies he's lying, considering you took a statement out of context to imply something he did not actually mean.

And you've even admit this already that the depictions aren't consistent. Sometimes they get hurt by sun, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they fear the sun enough to not go in it, sometimes they aren't bothered. You've used the same explanations as he has to cover why they aren't all 'vampires' and would even go out in the sun if necessary. Yet you can't explain why they didn't at the forest edge when it seemed necessary. I mean, this isn't something you can explain because the show isn't consistent anyways, so no point in trying to turn this around to call people liars on the basis of different opinions. Everyone acknowledges that the Orcs are written to fear the sun, and are doing so in varying levels that aren't completely consistent to one another.