Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

Which he contradicts by saying that fear is bullshit and Tolkien's view isn't displaying a fear that sometimes has them go into the sun and sometimes has them reluctant to go int he sun.

There is no contradiction. You've admitted that sometimes they fear the sun sometimes they don't. There's nothing for you to argue, you both understand the same facts here.

His only point of contention is them taking physical damage from the sun, which is what the show uses to imply their fear of the sun when it's convenient. That's it.

The only one that displays they want to argue for no good reason and shit post is yourself. You even called yourself a shit poster previously. Stop projecting and derailing discussions with your constant need to put me down to make yourself feel superior. You started off this discussion with good discussion until I overwhelmingly pointed out how you were wrong. Then you devolved into attacks and white knighting another poster.

DUde, I've been blatant about calling you out for shit-posting. I'm not the one on the crusade of 'exposing people for false criticisms'. I'm bringing you down a few notches to realize you're in the mud with everyone else. And frankly, your argument doesn't even make sense here, so it's not even like you've got anything to argue about. So maybe chill out.

[rhorle]

His only point of contention is them taking physical damage from the sun, which is what the show uses to imply their fear of the sun when it's convenient. That's it.

If they don't like the sun, and still can go there, ti makes shit sense for then TO NOT go there and grab then, ESPECIALLY when they are covered, so again, ti is a bullshit narrative that does not fit tolkien view

It is not his only contention as that quote clearly indicates. I also provided evidence that it isn't just to indicate their fear of the sun but to indicate that they have been "in the shadows" for so long the sun burns them. It is also why they are paler then other depictions. The fear of the sun is present regardless of them being burned or not which is why even when covered they are still shown to be hesitant.

[InfiniteCharger]

And? It still doesn't mean it is a replacement for Eregion and Eriador being attacked by Sauron. It is merely displaying another part of Sauron expanding his influence across Middle Earth. It is also hilarious that you are know coming to the conclusion that the show is an alternate sequence of events. Amazon has never hidden that the show is compressing the time line and changing the sequence of events that happen.

It is not displaying something if that something never happened originally. It is an alternate story because this is an alternate universe. It cannot be both the same and different at the same time. Sauron and his forces cannot both be hidden and unknown and present and attacking at the same time. It is one or the other. This whole story about the tower is a replacement for all the events primarily taking place at Eregion related to the rings of power and this series is called "Rings of Power". So if they are not focusing on Eregion and how Sauron appeared there as Annatar, while he and his forces were hidden and unknown, by introducing a new made up story about a tower and Sauron's forces appearing there to be the site of a huge battle, it is literally a replacement for the original story as written by Tolkien centered on Eregion.

[rhorle]

This whole story about the tower is a replacement for all the events primarily taking place at Eregion related to the rings of power

And yet you said those would be shown in a later season. Strange how something is both replaced and not replaced, right? The outpost in Mordor is just that. A small outpost with one tower. It isn't meant to replace the forging of the rings of power. You also conviently forget that Galadriel is on her way with an Army. The time line is compressed so of course different story threads that took place over thousands of years will be taking place at the same time. Again, duh.

Sauron just wasn't known to the elves in the second age. He began building his forces, and corrupting men, prior to the rings being forged. The whole ring plot was because he wanted followers that had the power of elves. Something that wasn't quite the case with all the orcs, humans, and other dark servants.

[InfiniteCharger]

And yet you said those would be shown in a later season. Strange how something is both replaced and not replaced, right? The outpost in Mordor is just that. A small outpost with one tower. It isn't meant to replace the forging of the rings of power. You also conviently forget that Galadriel is on her way with an Army. The time line is compressed so of course different story threads that took place over thousands of years will be taking place at the same time. Again, duh.

Sauron just wasn't known to the elves in the second age. He began building his forces, and corrupting men, prior to the rings being forged. The whole ring plot was because he wanted followers that had the power of elves. Something that wasn't quite the case with all the orcs, humans, and other dark servants.

Which this story about the tower is a replacement for the story of Eregion as told in the lore of the second age. You keep trying to make it seem like this is hard to understand when it isn't. The tower and any battle there never existed in the original story of the rings of power and is not relevant to it. Therefore, having this completely made up tower as a core part of this series shows it is a replacement for the actual story of the rings of power as a completely different sequence of events. Sauron never had a major battle at what would become Mordor before the creation of the rings of power because having that battle would have exposed his plot and presence to the world, making his deception in Eregion almost impossible. So literally this sequence of events cannot be the same as the books because the fundamental elements that make the story work in the books has been changed because it is being replaced with a totally different sequence of events and situations that cause the rings of power to be created in a different way.

[Kumorii]

https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/lotr-...f-women-beards

We're more of a time when they've kind of come out of Middle-earth, they've been squashed back down underground, and they're spending a lot of time in hiding and caves and tunnels and hidden away. We played on the lighter skin tone, a bit like someone's in the dark all the time. They're hidden away… there’s that whole sunlight thing that we are now beginning to see as they come out and suffering with the bright sun. Just like anyone who's never been exposed to UV, coming out onto the surface and having to deal with their skin's reaction to that. That's where a lot of it came through. So it was… you might say, baby-like. It’s the first birthing of the orcs coming out into the world of Middle-earth, to dominate again. And therefore, with that, comes their skin issues, their skin coloration, and thinner and more sinewy, and less bulky.

Haha... The same arguments people used for why Disa is black. They are underground, from the sun, little or no UV. So they used that as an excuse for Orcs to be white, but it's a bogus/racist argument when it comes to the dwarfs?

You can't make this shit up... goddamn.

[Triceron]

It is not his only contention as that quote clearly indicates. I also provided evidence that it isn't just to indicate their fear of the sun but to indicate that they have been "in the shadows" for so long the sun burns them. It is also why they are paler then other depictions. The fear of the sun is present regardless of them being burned or not which is why even when covered they are still shown to be hesitant.

Yeah but your explanation doesn't make his argument wrong. That's the difference.

He hasn't argued that they don't fear the sun. He said your explanation doesn't make sense to him, because if your explanation was that only some fear the sun then implies that there are some who do not. And his argument above is saying that those ones who didn't fear it could still be shown going out. But that's not the case at all, and they're all shown to stop at the forest edge with none choosing to take a step into the light at all. And he views that as being due to the show depicting them being unable to.

Considering no one can be confirmed right or wrong since this is all a matter of interpretation, there's no real point in arguing. Cuz honestly, you can't even confirm if the show is choosing to depict them as merely fearing the sun at that moment, or strategically choosing not to pursue knowing the risks, or whether they're completely unable to because these are the 'burn-in-the-sun' type of Orcs who will suffer in sunlight. It's not a scenario that anyone can confirm, so as I said, no point in arguing it as though anyone can be right or wrong. It's just a matter of interpreting things differently. He's rejecting the alternative perspective that you're trying to push on him as a means of explanation. He's not 'denying Tolkien', he's rejecting your specific interpretation of Tolkien's description of Orcs and how you're applying it back to the show. It doesn't mean your interpretation is wrong either, just that it's unconfirmable and unreasonable to his own interpretation.

Because let's face it, there isn't any one way to explain what's going on in the show. It's clearly inconsistent and they haven't done a good job of building a world that makes sense. Everything that happens is at the convenience of the show really.

[rhorle]

Which this story about the tower is a replacement for the story of Eregion as told in the lore of the second age.

How can it replace something that will happen later in the series? You even stated it will happen later. That means it isn't a replacement but just an additional story thread. The series is a different sequence of events even with out the tower because they are compressing the timeline into a few hundred years. From Thousands to Hundreds. So of course the sequence of events are different from the books. Again, duh.

It is also silly to call the Watchtower a "major battle" when it is One elf and a handful of humans. We don't even know if Adar and his orcs are connected to Sauron at this point. So it doesn't automatically have to reveal to the world that Sauron is back because Orcs never went away completely. Even Tolkien had Orcs not following Sauron because of his disquise. So these could be those "independant" orcs wanting their own territory after seeing others doing stuff. It also doesn't mean that Annatar would be seen with more suspicion just because Orcs are making trouble. Besides Galadriel is sailing to Middle-Earth with an army to defeat Saruon. So her arc would be more of a replacement then Arondir's yet you haven't argued that. Strange, right?

You are focused on elevating an outpost with a tower into some greater meaning.

[Joszef Kiprich]

https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/lotr-...f-women-beards




Haha... The same arguments people used for why Disa is black. They are underground, from the sun, little or no UV. So they used that as an excuse for Orcs to be white, but it's a bogus/racist argument when it comes to the dwarfs?

You can't make this shit up... goddamn.

While it looks contradicting, did the show clarify if Dhisa was from the same tribe/clan?

[Kumorii]

While it looks contradicting, did the show clarify if Dhisa was from the same tribe/clan?

They haven't mentioned anything about it from what I can remember. Doubt they will because as I mentioned, they've said it's just racist... no need for justification is what I take that as. Could be wrong though.

Would be weird if people get attacked for asking for a justification just like that. One that would explain it, and then turn around and do the same thing they claimed was racist.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/lotr-...f-women-beards




Haha... The same arguments people used for why Disa is black. They are underground, from the sun, little or no UV. So they used that as an excuse for Orcs to be white, but it's a bogus/racist argument when it comes to the dwarfs?

You can't make this shit up... goddamn.

By this same argument through you’d have to say every dwarf should be just as white as the orcs any darker shade being ok under such rules and any such limit is obviously gonna be bias in one way or another.

[Kumorii]

By this same argument through you’d have to say every dwarf should be just as white as the orcs any darker shade being ok under such rules and any such limit is obviously gonna be bias in one way or another.

Sure, I'm not making arguments for who should look like what... just pointing out the hypocrisy tbh. That's all there is to it.
You can't say it's wrong or bad to use an argument to question or justify certain skin colors and then use the same argument to justify another certain skin color.

well you can, but you look like an idiot tbh.

[Triceron]

You are focused on elevating an outpost with a tower into some greater meaning.

No, it's being pointed out that the show is putting greater meaning into this event because it will be the first time the Orcs show their hand, and because the show is literally devoting 1/3rd of its first season content to this one outpost with a tower.

I mean, the way the show seems to be going, it looks like they're gonna not only compress the timeline, but use the same super-travel time dilation that put Orc-victimized Southlanders in the middle of the ocean where Galadriel is. This same time-travel shenanigans will mean the show writers could place Galadriel and the Numenoreans back into the Southlands in time to fight at the Watchtower, if they wanted to.

[tikcol]

The orcs could be red for all I care. The problem is the lack of consistency which once again proves the show is poorly written. This is just a drop in a watterfall of bullshit

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Sure, I'm not making arguments for who should look like what... just pointing out the hypocrisy tbh. That's all there is to it.
You can't say it's wrong or bad to use an argument to question or justify certain skin colors and then use the same argument to justify another certain skin color.

well you can, but you look like an idiot tbh.

Ya it’s hypocrisy and does make you look like an idiot but that road goes both ways, all the people saying/said they should be human white and not darker shades based on UV are just going in the other direction.

[Dhrizzle]

So the burning of the skin is "exaggerating" the impact of sunlight after so long away from it. Didn't the orcs have a similar effect when the first sunrise happened?

This is a bit of a sticky spot in the lore. While the Silmarillion says that orcs are Elves corrupted by Melkor, Tolkien made a clear note that he wanted them to be corrupted forms of Men (to avoid the issue of immortal orc souls hanging around in the Halls of Mandos.) However Men didn't awaken until the first sunrise so orcs must have been created some time after. This plays havoc with the timeline as orcs were mentioned as being around before Men awoke. Add to that the fact Tolkien intended to completely redo the cosmology of Arda so the world was always round and the sun and moon always existed (obscured by some sorcery of Melkor so the Trees were still necessary) and the "canon" relationship between orcs and the sun really doesn't exist.

[rhorle]

No, it's being pointed out that the show is putting greater meaning into this event because it will be the first time the Orcs show their hand, and because the show is literally devoting 1/3rd of its first season content to this one outpost with a tower.

Sauron began building his forces in Mordor in the SA 1000. About 500 years later he went to seduce elves. Do you really think that for 500 years there was no evidence of Orcs? Or even zero between the end of the War of Wrath and the return of Sauron? Remember the show is drastically condensing time lines so there is no reason why the watch tower would have an elevated meaning. It isn't a replacement for the rings and the tower in Eregion.

It is only important as a location for a main characters story. It hasn't been shown to be a special place of magic to attract Sauron, Orcs, and Rings. It still hasn't even been made clear that Adar is currently allied with Sauron. Remember some orcs refused to follow Annatar. It is silly to claim it has been elevated to anywhere near the rings being forged in the story.

[Triceron]

Sauron began building his forces in Mordor in the SA 1000. About 500 years later he went to seduce elves. Do you really think that for 500 years there was no evidence of Orcs? Or even zero between the end of the War of Wrath and the return of Sauron? Remember the show is drastically condensing time lines so there is no reason why the watch tower would have an elevated meaning. It isn't a replacement for the rings and the tower in Eregion.

In the books? Absolutely, because that is how the story was written. They didn't do anything to break that secrecy. That's the whole point of him having built a secret army. It was secret.

In the show, there is no established time of when or how long Orcs have been mustered in his absence. The timeline is compressed, and things are being pushed forward in some parts and not in others. Like, do you know where the evidence of the earliest Orc attack in the show actually comes from? Halbrand and the shipwreck survivors. And we don't really know how long ago they would have been attacked, since they never elaborate how long Halbrand had been at sea for or how far they had sailed after they escaped Orcs. Hell, we don't even know completely whether he is lying or not for that fact, since his entire background story is sus.

It is only important as a location for a main characters story. It hasn't been shown to be a special place of magic to attract Sauron, Orcs, and Rings. It still hasn't even been made clear that Adar is currently allied with Sauron. Remember some orcs refused to follow Annatar. It is silly to claim it has been elevated to anywhere near the rings being forged in the story.

You could be right that Adar is acting on his own and not allied with Sauron at all. The problem with that explanation is that it would undermine the tone of the first season's premise - which is finding evidence of Sauron's return and the plot to create Mordor. If this side story were a massive red herring that amounts to nothing relative to Sauron, then it's a complete waste of time. Make sense? Like you could literally remove this entire sideplot if it doesn't have anything to do with Sauron's actual plans.


The context of the main plot of the first season is what we're discussing here. The watchtower arc already feels like filler. If you're then explaining that this could be a completely separate and unimportant thing, then this is exactly what I mean by comparing it to Chekhov's gun. It's about making a point that this would be unimportant to the main plot. It would be a sideplot that could be omitted completely IF it does not somehow tie back to the main plot in some significant way.

And frankly, I would have similar criticism of the Harfoot plotline seemingly going nowhere either, but it's way too early to tell what they actually intend to do.

[rhorle]

In the books? Absolutely, because that is how the story was written. Could you point at any time when Orcs were known of in the books? You wouldn't be able to, because they didn't do anything to break that secrecy. That's the whole point of him having built a secret army. It was secret.

Can you point to me where they remained out of sight of everyone for a thousand years? You can't because Tolkien didn't write about it. It is reasonable to think that Orcs had a presence. Even ignoring that they didn't remain a secret until the rings were forged. As again it indicates that Sauron was building his forces in Mordor and corrupting men to his side.

The problem with that explanation is that it would undermine the tone of the first season's premise - which is finding evidence of Sauron's return and the plot to create Mordor.

It would not. If Sauron is currently in his Annatar form then they might not have served him. They could be taking their own part of Mordor just as the rest are starting to build Barad-dur. It doesn't undermine the tone of the show if their actions are still motivated by the return of Sauron or if they later come to serve him. It is clear the show wants to have the sword be an important object so removing it being "built" into the world would change things also not everything that happens needs to be directly related to Sauron. There can be multiple stories that converge to the main story at some point.

Arondir, Theo, the hilt, and Mordor are not disposable side plots. There are essentially part of the main story and building that world and multiple aspects of the return of Sauron. The Harfoots and Meteor Man are the only thing that could be entirely removed with out impacting any other parts of the story.

Lol at you trying to argue checkov's gun again. It wasn't true the last time and it isn't true now. Of course the story could have been written to not need this arc but it has clearly been written to set up important things.

[Triceron]

Can you point to me where they remained out of sight of everyone for a thousand years? You can't because Tolkien didn't write about it. It is reasonable to think that Orcs had a presence. Even ignoring that they didn't remain a secret until the rings were forged. As again it indicates that Sauron was building his forces in Mordor and corrupting men to his side.

The proof you're asking for is as self evident as asking whether there is any way to prove that trees never grew on the moon.

You're trying to prove a negative, which is generally impossible.

I'd even argue the logic you're implying is unreasonable. No, it is not reasonable to think Orcs had a presence, because they literally did not have a presence. They were completely secret. Just like it's unreasonable to think that there were trees on the Moon when there is clearly no evidence of that ever happening, and the mere question of 'well can you prove that there were never any trees on the moon' is not a reasonable argument to assert at all. What are you arguing about really?

Arondir, Theo, the hilt, and Mordor are not disposable side plots. There are essentially part of the main story and building that world and multiple aspects of the return of Sauron. The Harfoots and Meteor Man are the only thing that could be entirely removed with out impacting any other parts of the story.

Except you came up with an explanation that involved Adar not having any connection to Sauron, therefore it would make the entire story irrelevant to Sauron's return. That's what I'm pointing out as the problem with your specific explanation. Right now, all plotlines have a connection to Sauron in some way, we just don't know exactly in what way and how much of a connection they truly have. For you to imply that the Adar could be completely separate from Sauron's allegiance would render the entire arc a sideplot that could be removed.