1. #5341
    I disagree with several points you make, I'll try to elaborate point by point.

    "She is the commander of armies, yet she acts nothing like such". The show tells that we only see the backend of her being a commander. After 100's of years of chasing an enemy you never find, few still followed her, and the final group fell apart after the snowtroll. This is frustrating as hell for her, because she KNOWS the evil is still out there. How? Literally magic, she's well established to have visions.

    It is then quite vexing that others keep asking for proof when you yourself are literally the witness. She overplays her position in Numenor, but at this point in time I think humanity felt insignificant to the elves, as is also implied in the southlands. Imagine standing in front of a court of toddlers, blocking you from what you know you need to do, NOW.

  2. #5342
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    Can't really "defend" most points, because it's still unclear where the story will move, but I would like to present some arguments for consideration.

    1. Galadriel. Yes she's already quite old, but an "insolent child" she is not. Mind you she's actually among royalty within the elves, and has spent 100's of years battling an absolute evil, that people around her now act "doesn't exist" and she should "just chill". The term gaslighting comes to mind. The difference between Galadriel here and Galadriel in LotR seems to me, that she has not yet learned how to deal with obtuseness. I'll be curious to see how this unfolds.

    2. In my opinion the show did a bit too little to show that "the southlands" is actually a region that will later fall into "mordor". These peoples ancestors were not very kosjer, so to say. A bit like Germany post WW1 (though for a longer timespan). They hate the outside world (especially elves) because they are blamed for what their ancestors did, several generations ago. The kid then finds an item of obvious power, and we all know how sensitive humanity is to power.

    3. The orcs that were in the village looking for swordkid weren't necessarily the same orcs that knew he was released by Adar. As to why he was released to give a message, probably because Adar thinks the watchtower is a deathtrap anyway, and the surrounding lands are already well infiltrated.

    Completely agree with you on the dwarven storyline, LOVING seeing more of them. The Harfoots clearly show here that their existence is far from idyllic, and we'll see why they decided to settle in the shire.
    1. Galadriel is still an allready more than accomplished leader at this time.
    Storming into the throne room and basically demanding whatnot depsite full well being aware, that they are not really on good terms is just stupid.
    At that point in time Galadriel is not just a meddling swordsman/women.... she is allready quite proficiant in everything including "magic" and one of the oldest being in middle earth^^
    She even gets compared to someones children at one point.
    Gild-Galad, the dude crowning them is 100 years younger than she is.

    2. This storyline i keep being wary. He child is just unlikable. Maybe the mother is to blame.

    3. The storyline is not that far spread.

    and The hobbits... the contrast is too high imho. They act like "the hobbit"-dwarfes who are more silly noises and slapstick then serious stuff. It is just HIGHLY out of place for the overall tone of the show. Like Katy Perry on a Ozzy Osbourne concert. And they are not enough people to let whole familys die just because ONE of them as a sprained ankle.

  3. #5343
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    and The hobbits... the contrast is too high imho. They act like "the hobbit"-dwarfes who are more silly noises and slapstick then serious stuff. It is just HIGHLY out of place for the overall tone of the show. Like Katy Perry on a Ozzy Osbourne concert. And they are not enough people to let whole familys die just because ONE of them as a sprained ankle.
    If you actually pay attention to then, the hobbits are far more demented than humans or elves. They are sick people who left their kin to die when they can keep up and even gather to mock their death

    You have one scene saying its their nature to help people and the other saying "no one leave the trail" to a 180° degree of fuck people who can't keep up with the group

    Its just one of the few examples of the show contradicting itself, as it cannot keep up with the consistency not just from the lore but from the shit they made up

  4. #5344
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    I disagree with several points you make, I'll try to elaborate point by point.

    "She is the commander of armies, yet she acts nothing like such". The show tells that we only see the backend of her being a commander. After 100's of years of chasing an enemy you never find, few still followed her, and the final group fell apart after the snowtroll. This is frustrating as hell for her, because she KNOWS the evil is still out there. How? Literally magic, she's well established to have visions.

    It is then quite vexing that others keep asking for proof when you yourself are literally the witness. She overplays her position in Numenor, but at this point in time I think humanity felt insignificant to the elves, as is also implied in the southlands. Imagine standing in front of a court of toddlers, blocking you from what you know you need to do, NOW.
    This has nothing to do with them being obtuse. Asking for more proof than "trust me bro" isn't being obtuse. Obtuse would be being presented good arguments and even some proof and still be unsure because you aren't 100% convinced or still think your way is the way to go despite what's being shown, dismissing what's presented or flat out denying it. But she haven't presented anything... there's nothing to deny.
    They aren't toddlers nor are they acting like they are. Galadriel is however... not sure where the show established she have visions. Maybe I missed it, I only remember "Why isn't gone from in here?" line... which doesn't imply visions, it implies she has a feeling about it.

    If you are being vexed about people not trusting your word when it comes to serious and sever implications, maybe realise that you need more than just your word. That's a problem on your part, or in this case, Galadriels; and has nothing to do with others being obtuse. They are being rational in demanding more than just trusting her. Especially when she acts like she does, she isn't behaving like a trustworthy person. If they want to make this into a character arc, I'm all for it, I rather have them move towards resolving that arc asap because now she just reminds me of teenagers who KNOWS everything because they feel like they do and everyone else JUST DON'T GET THEM.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-19 at 08:59 AM.

  5. #5345
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I wonder if it is a subtle hint at the elves being manipulated. We know Sauron was involved with the rings and maybe Celebrimbor had a moment of clarity from whatever "spell" they are under.
    What Celebrimbor actually says is Earendil told him his future would be in his son's (Elrond's) hands. It seems a natural place to remember that conversation as Elrond had just secured Celebrimbor's future.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    Thats a good point, he's supposed to be the rightful king of the southlands, so yeah indeed not angmar. I missed that.
    I'm not 100% sure but weren't the Southlanders moved there after the War of Wrath? I did think it was their ancestral home.

    It's also irrelevant, the Witch King wasn't from Angmar, he established Angmar in the Third Age to rival the Numenorean kingdoms.

  6. #5346
    About the meteor guy.

    Galadriel established during the opening scene that the evil is so great that their torches have no warmth.
    When Nori falls down the hole, she calls out "It's not hot...".

    You think this is a connection between the two? It's hard to say with the contrivances in the story so far and a lot of the comments, dialog and events tend to focus on spectacle rather than story.

    But that would imply this could be Sauron (no idea how lore accurate that would be, I would imagine Sauron never left Middle Earth).
    Or it could be Saruman and not Gandalf. But Saruman wouldn't arrive "evil" and instead should've been corrupted or allied himself to Sauron later on.

    What other evil characters do we know of he could be if this connection is to be true?

    EDIT: Could also imply that Not-Gandalf was imprisoned in the meteor by evil forces for some reason or akin to that.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-19 at 10:36 AM.

  7. #5347
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Can you actually tell me what's going on at the watchtower and what the plans are other than them literally starving? No, you wouldn't be able to, because the show hasn't set anything up for the audience to draw any reasonable conclusion.
    Do you actually watch the show? It's made clear as day that they don't have any plans. The Southlanders aren't militarily experienced, quite the opposite in fact, so all they've done is panic and flee to the most secure spot. It's a major plot point that they have no plans and are in danger of starving to death, how can you watch that and then complain they haven't told you what those non-existent plans are?

  8. #5348
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    About the meteor guy.

    Galadriel established during the opening scene that the evil is so great that their torches have no warmth.
    When Nori falls down the hole, she calls out "It's not hot...".

    You think this is a connection between the two? It's hard to say with the contrivances in the story so far and a lot of the comments, dialog and events tend to focus on spectacle rather than story.

    But that would imply this could be Sauron (no idea how lore accurate that would be, I would imagine Sauron never left Middle Earth).
    Or it could be Saruman and not Gandalf. But Saruman wouldn't arrive "evil" and instead should've been corrupted or allied himself of Sauron later on.

    What other evil characters do we know of he could be if this connection is to be true?
    To quote the lotr: “the enemy would look fairer, but feel fouler”. The meteor guy isn’t fair enough to be evil, if you ask me.

  9. #5349
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    To quote the lotr: “the enemy would look fairer, but feel fouler”. The meteor guy isn’t fair enough to be evil, if you ask me.
    I'm with you on that, I don't think so either. I think it can be an interesting speculation however and actually a nice hint for the show to make between these 2 scenes and statements. So I kinda hope it's someone who is evil, just don't know enough to speculate whom it might be.

  10. #5350
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I'm with you on that, I don't think so either. I think it can be an interesting speculation however and actually a nice hint for the show to make between these 2 scenes and statements. So I kinda hope it's someone who is evil, just don't know enough to speculate whom it might be.
    We already know its a wizard of some sort, the question is, how far they will butcher the lore? they could say its Sauron but that is too obnoxious even for then, so, the only options left imo are one of the wizards.

    The show is making sure to mimic gandalf in every thing he does, like the trick he use to scary Bilbo in the fellowship, but that would be asinine since Gandalf only comes in the third age, but again, if Isildur is alive we already know they give two shits about it, so its either him, or a long shot Saruman, and they are just trying to "deceive us" with the gandalf thing

  11. #5351
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    if Isildur is alive we already know they give two shits about it
    ...what is that supposed to mean.

  12. #5352
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    ...what is that supposed to mean.
    It means the timeline is all over the place cause him and Gandalf were not supposed to be there yet.

  13. #5353
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    We already know its a wizard of some sort, the question is, how far they will butcher the lore? they could say its Sauron but that is too obnoxious even for then, so, the only options left imo are one of the wizards.

    The show is making sure to mimic gandalf in every thing he does, like the trick he use to scary Bilbo in the fellowship, but that would be asinine since Gandalf only comes in the third age, but again, if Isildur is alive we already know they give two shits about it, so its either him, or a long shot Saruman, and they are just trying to "deceive us" with the gandalf thing
    Yeah, Saruman would be the "logical" bait and switch.

  14. #5354
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    It means the timeline is all over the place cause him and Gandalf were not supposed to be there yet.
    It was Isildur who saved a fruit of the White Tree and helped found the kingdom of Gondor after the fall of Numenor. Where else is he supposed to be, if not "there yet?"

  15. #5355
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    It was Isildur who saved a fruit of the White Tree and helped found the kingdom of Gondor after the fall of Numenor. Where else is he supposed to be, if not "there yet?"
    Isildur wasn't born for another 1700 years after the rings were forged, and they haven't been forged yet.

  16. #5356
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    The show is making sure to mimic gandalf in every thing he does, like the trick he use to scary Bilbo in the fellowship, but that would be asinine since Gandalf only comes in the third age, but again, if Isildur is alive we already know they give two shits about it, so its either him, or a long shot Saruman, and they are just trying to "deceive us" with the gandalf thing
    It is crazy that you assign a character to it just so you can complain about how bad that assignment is. You are creating something just to complain. It is entirely possible that they created a Maia for the show so it doesn't have to be any of the known "Wizards". Given the time compression and the Blue Wizards being sent in the Second Age after the rings were forged it is most likely a Blue Wizard. Tolkien contradicts himself on the time the Wizards were sent. In Unfinished Tales he said they all came together in TA 1000 but in The Peoples of Middle-earth he says the Blues arrived in SA 1600.
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  17. #5357
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Isildur wasn't born for another 1700 years after the rings were forged, and they haven't been forged yet.
    /sigh

    They explicitly said that the timeline was going to be compressed for the sake of having human characters that mattered. How many times does that need to be repeated. Banging on about Isildur specifically, when Elendil is right over there as well...is fucking stupid.

  18. #5358
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    /sigh

    They explicitly said that the timeline was going to be compressed for the sake of having human characters that mattered. How many times does that need to be repeated. Banging on about Isildur specifically, when Elendil is right over there as well...is fucking stupid.
    Thats precisely why i said the timeline is fucked so it can be Gandalf or another wizard, duh

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is crazy that you assign a character to it just so you can complain about how bad that assignment is. You are creating something just to complain.It is entirely possible that they created a Maia for the show so it doesn't have to be any of the known "Wizards". Given the time compression and the Blue Wizards being sent in the Second Age after the rings were forged it is most likely a Blue Wizard. Tolkien contradicts himself on the time the Wizards were sent. In Unfinished Tales he said they all came together in TA 1000 but in The Peoples of Middle-earth he says the Blues arrived in SA 1600.
    What the hell are you even trying to say in the bold part dude, i didn't "assign a character" it is a wizard, its blatantly what he is. The wizards are Maiars

    The thing is how the wizards don't show up until the rings were forged, and here we have one. Yeah it could be a blue wizard, but due to the show making sure to mimic Gandalf, for all the nostalgia juice, i doubt its one of the blues or even the brown.

  19. #5359
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    /sigh

    They explicitly said that the timeline was going to be compressed for the sake of having human characters that mattered. How many times does that need to be repeated. Banging on about Isildur specifically, when Elendil is right over there as well...is fucking stupid.
    I mean you can continue to float around the thread being sooo tired and fed up with reading stuff that you disagree with but at some point you just have to accept that the diversions that the show is taking from established lore are things that people will notice and comment on.

  20. #5360
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    What the hell are you even trying to say in the bold part dude, i didn't "assign a character" it is a wizard, its blatantly what he is. The wizards are Maiars
    You said the show is making the character either Gandalf or Sarumon. You assinged a character, Gandalf or Sarumon, to it in order to complain about how stupid that would be. The show hasn't made any hints at who it is.

    It doesn't matter if the Blue Wizards didn't show up until the rings are forged in Tolkien-timeline. The show has a compressed version and a different one hence why Isildur is alive before the rings have been shown to be forged. It is crazy how you ignore parts of the show just to try and justify your made up complaint.
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