Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

Sauron began building his forces in Mordor in the SA 1000. About 500 years later he went to seduce elves. Do you really think that for 500 years there was no evidence of Orcs? Or even zero between the end of the War of Wrath and the return of Sauron? Remember the show is drastically condensing time lines so there is no reason why the watch tower would have an elevated meaning. It isn't a replacement for the rings and the tower in Eregion.

In the books? Absolutely, because that is how the story was written. They didn't do anything to break that secrecy. That's the whole point of him having built a secret army. It was secret.

In the show, there is no established time of when or how long Orcs have been mustered in his absence. The timeline is compressed, and things are being pushed forward in some parts and not in others. Like, do you know where the evidence of the earliest Orc attack in the show actually comes from? Halbrand and the shipwreck survivors. And we don't really know how long ago they would have been attacked, since they never elaborate how long Halbrand had been at sea for or how far they had sailed after they escaped Orcs. Hell, we don't even know completely whether he is lying or not for that fact, since his entire background story is sus.

It is only important as a location for a main characters story. It hasn't been shown to be a special place of magic to attract Sauron, Orcs, and Rings. It still hasn't even been made clear that Adar is currently allied with Sauron. Remember some orcs refused to follow Annatar. It is silly to claim it has been elevated to anywhere near the rings being forged in the story.

You could be right that Adar is acting on his own and not allied with Sauron at all. The problem with that explanation is that it would undermine the tone of the first season's premise - which is finding evidence of Sauron's return and the plot to create Mordor. If this side story were a massive red herring that amounts to nothing relative to Sauron, then it's a complete waste of time. Make sense? Like you could literally remove this entire sideplot if it doesn't have anything to do with Sauron's actual plans.


The context of the main plot of the first season is what we're discussing here. The watchtower arc already feels like filler. If you're then explaining that this could be a completely separate and unimportant thing, then this is exactly what I mean by comparing it to Chekhov's gun. It's about making a point that this would be unimportant to the main plot. It would be a sideplot that could be omitted completely IF it does not somehow tie back to the main plot in some significant way.

And frankly, I would have similar criticism of the Harfoot plotline seemingly going nowhere either, but it's way too early to tell what they actually intend to do.

[rhorle]

In the books? Absolutely, because that is how the story was written. Could you point at any time when Orcs were known of in the books? You wouldn't be able to, because they didn't do anything to break that secrecy. That's the whole point of him having built a secret army. It was secret.

Can you point to me where they remained out of sight of everyone for a thousand years? You can't because Tolkien didn't write about it. It is reasonable to think that Orcs had a presence. Even ignoring that they didn't remain a secret until the rings were forged. As again it indicates that Sauron was building his forces in Mordor and corrupting men to his side.

The problem with that explanation is that it would undermine the tone of the first season's premise - which is finding evidence of Sauron's return and the plot to create Mordor.

It would not. If Sauron is currently in his Annatar form then they might not have served him. They could be taking their own part of Mordor just as the rest are starting to build Barad-dur. It doesn't undermine the tone of the show if their actions are still motivated by the return of Sauron or if they later come to serve him. It is clear the show wants to have the sword be an important object so removing it being "built" into the world would change things also not everything that happens needs to be directly related to Sauron. There can be multiple stories that converge to the main story at some point.

Arondir, Theo, the hilt, and Mordor are not disposable side plots. There are essentially part of the main story and building that world and multiple aspects of the return of Sauron. The Harfoots and Meteor Man are the only thing that could be entirely removed with out impacting any other parts of the story.

Lol at you trying to argue checkov's gun again. It wasn't true the last time and it isn't true now. Of course the story could have been written to not need this arc but it has clearly been written to set up important things.

[Triceron]

Can you point to me where they remained out of sight of everyone for a thousand years? You can't because Tolkien didn't write about it. It is reasonable to think that Orcs had a presence. Even ignoring that they didn't remain a secret until the rings were forged. As again it indicates that Sauron was building his forces in Mordor and corrupting men to his side.

The proof you're asking for is as self evident as asking whether there is any way to prove that trees never grew on the moon.

You're trying to prove a negative, which is generally impossible.

I'd even argue the logic you're implying is unreasonable. No, it is not reasonable to think Orcs had a presence, because they literally did not have a presence. They were completely secret. Just like it's unreasonable to think that there were trees on the Moon when there is clearly no evidence of that ever happening, and the mere question of 'well can you prove that there were never any trees on the moon' is not a reasonable argument to assert at all. What are you arguing about really?

Arondir, Theo, the hilt, and Mordor are not disposable side plots. There are essentially part of the main story and building that world and multiple aspects of the return of Sauron. The Harfoots and Meteor Man are the only thing that could be entirely removed with out impacting any other parts of the story.

Except you came up with an explanation that involved Adar not having any connection to Sauron, therefore it would make the entire story irrelevant to Sauron's return. That's what I'm pointing out as the problem with your specific explanation. Right now, all plotlines have a connection to Sauron in some way, we just don't know exactly in what way and how much of a connection they truly have. For you to imply that the Adar could be completely separate from Sauron's allegiance would render the entire arc a sideplot that could be removed.

[rhorle]

The proof you're asking for is as self evident as asking whether there is any way to prove that the Beatles never went to the moon. Well, history as we know it illustrates that it did not happen. What are you really arguing about really?

Tolkien didn't write about it either way. So it is something that is possible and when viewed under a lens of a "living world" it stands to reason that Orcs would have had some interaction on Middle-earth in those times. Even more so when it is know that after the war of wrath they fled to some of the same mountain ranges that dwarves inhabited.

[Triceron]

Tolkien didn't write about it either way. So it is something that is possible and when viewed under a lens of a "living world" it stands to reason that Orcs would have had some interaction on Middle-earth in those times. Even more so when it is know that after the war of wrath they fled to some of the same mountain ranges that dwarves inhabited.

If Tolkien didn't write about it then you can't imply an event significant enough to expose Orcs as being 'reasonable'. It'd be quite counter-intuitive to the canon.

If we're talking about the show taking creative liberties and adapting stuff that never happened in the books, then yes an adaptation is free to bend the lore because it is not beholden to its canon. If you're specifically talking about the books which can no longer be appended or changed since the original creators are gone, then no, it wouldn't be reasonable to assume that it would suddenly be elaborated in some other way. It could be considered ambigious, it could be considered ill-explained, but at no point could it be assumed that an event as significant as what we're seeing in ROP like Halbrand or the Watchtower arc would somehow fit naturally back into Tolkien's work. It wouldn't fit at all, and it would be unreasonable to assume that it even could.

Let's be clear that the show's depiction of the Orc's current actions in the Southlands has been significant enough to reach even out to Galadriel in the middle of the Ocean, who is now using that 'evidence' to support her claims and rally the Numenoreans to investigate the Southlands. What the show is depicting wouldn't reasonably work in Tolkien's canon.

I mean the reason why the show is doing this is because it's intentionally compressing the timeline. So in a way, it'd be just as ridiculous to imply that time compression would be reasonably applicable to Tolkien's work as well. That just isn't how it works.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If Tolkien didn't write about it then you can't imply something not written in the text as being 'reasonable'.

Didn’t you have quite a lengthy back and forth a week or so ago about rather elfs acted like humans when it came to things like drowning even through it was never written about?

[Triceron]

Didn’t you have quite a lengthy back and forth a week or so ago about rather elfs acted like humans when it came to things like drowning even through it was never written about?

I'd always used the show depicted Elves acting exactly as how a human to present how they 'drown' in similar ways. I never implied that this somehow retroactively applies to Tolkien's fiction.

I think I'm pretty clear that I treat the show and the books as completely separate entities. I treat them as multiverses, really. One can source elements from another 'universe', but there isn't really any logic that carries from one to the other. Every version has to establish its own rules.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'd always used the show depicted Elves acting exactly as how a human to present how they 'drown' in similar ways. I never implied that this somehow retroactively applies to Tolkien's fiction.

Ah ok not Tolkien then, but wouldn’t that still apply to what the show has depicted? Like I don’t think we ever see any one drown in the show so don’t we have to refer to the implied notion that drowning is a reasonable thing even though it isn’t shown in the show?

[rhorle]

If Tolkien didn't write about it then you can't imply an event significant enough to expose Orcs as being 'reasonable'.

There is nothing to say orcs stayed 100% hidden until Sauron's return. They easily could have stayed 100% hidden. Tolkien didn't write about every detail of elven, dwarven or human life but it is implied they did stuff, right? That they didn't just twiddle their thumbs until the "major" events of the time line happened. They traded, they built, destroyed, crafted, etc. All things that Tolkien didn't explicitly write about but it is reasonable to say happened.

Galadriel only heard about by chance. She used their story and the new information about the sigil to convince the Queen to send an army. She doesn't know the extent of it but it is clear that Orcs have been attacking the Southlands for a while without knowledge. There isn't anything to say that the orc attack would be significant if she didn't also find the sigil linking to the Southlands/Mordor.

No one has said time compression is applicable to Tolkien's work. Of course tolkien didn't compress his work as he was the one to create the original timeline.

[Triceron]

Ah ok not Tolkien then, but wouldn’t that still apply to what the show has depicted? Like I don’t think we ever see any one drown in the show so don’t we have to refer to the implied notion that drowning is a reasonable thing even though it isn’t shown in the show?

I'm not sure why it would be unreasonable? I'd never argued that Galadriel was immune to drowning in the show.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm not sure why it would be unreasonable? I'd never argued that Galadriel was immune to drowning in the show.

It’s not unreasonable but as you said “If Tolkien didn't write about it then you can't imply something not written in the text as being 'reasonable'.”, wouldn’t this apply to the show as well and we can’t say it’s reasonable for her or any one else to drown given that it wasn’t shown in the show instead of written into the text?

[Triceron]

There is nothing to say orcs stayed 100% hidden until Sauron's return. They easily could have stayed 100% hidden. Tolkien didn't write about every detail of elven, dwarven or human life but it is implied they did stuff, right? That they didn't just twiddle their thumbs until the "major" events of the time line happened. They traded, they built, destroyed, crafted, etc. All things that Tolkien didn't explicitly write about but it is reasonable to say happened.

We're splitting hairs here.

You're using numbers like 100% hidden until Sauron's return.

In Rings of Power, the mere appearance of Orcs is news that has reached as far as Numenor, and is a direct reason why Numenor is going to join Galadriel's investigation of the Southlands. I wouldn't even know what % you'd consider that being hidden.

Galadriel only heard about by chance. She used their story and the new information about the sigil to convince the Queen to send an army. She doesn't know the extent of it but it is clear that Orcs have been attacking the Southlands for a while without knowledge. There isn't anything to say that the orc attack would be significant if she didn't also find the sigil linking to the Southlands/Mordor.

Halbrand being a 'king of the Southlands' who escaped to Numenor because of Orcs is a pretty big deal. If one random chance encounter is capable of shaking the world, then yes I would say it's not reasonably comparable to Tolkien's original depiction of a secret Orc army that was able to move on Eregion in secret. That isn't what's happening in Rings of Power.

[Fortress of Arrogance]

Electrodriel is one major turning off point for me so far.
Even that black elf imposter guy is less of a problem.

Watching anyone BUT elves is actually interesting and pleasing.
Am really amazed at the chemistry and acting of Durin and Dysa.
Was really amazed by Durin's actor acting out that scene with his father, with just his eyes and a bit of cheekbones.
Electrodriel seems be unable to face/eye-act at all.

[Triceron]

It’s not unreasonable but as you said “If Tolkien didn't write about it then you can't imply something not written in the text as being 'reasonable'.”, wouldn’t this apply to the show as well and we can’t say it’s reasonable for her or any one else to drown given that it wasn’t shown in the show instead of written into the text?

He's not talking about show logic merely being reasonable to the show. He's talking about show logic being reasonable within the context of Tolkien's fiction.

As I said, if the show wants Orcs fearing the sun, burning in the sun, glittering like Twilight boys or whatever, then it can do it. But we can't retroactively apply this logic back to saying 'well it'd be reasonable in Tolkien's fiction too'. It would only be relevant if Tolkien actually wrote about it. Any else would be pure speculation, and I don't know what you'd consider 'reasonable' in that context.

And if we're talking about what Tolkien wrote about drowning, then we reasonably assume that Elves can and do drown because he wrote a side story about an Elf who swam into the open sea and was never heard of again. That'd be the only relevant case in Tolkien's own work.

[rhorle]

You're using numbers like 100% hidden until Sauron's return.

Right. That is what is being discussed and what you've argued against. As I said it would be reasonable for Orcs, with no master, to not remain 100% hidden over 1,000+ years. You claimed it isn't reasonable to say that because Tolkien never wrote it. This is exactly what is being talked about and I'm not sure why you are confused after you've argued on the subject.

As for the show news has reached Numenor because of Galadrial meeting refugees and being rescued. It may be reasonable to assume they have heard reports of Orcs but are not interacting with Elves to pass that information along. Remember the show sets up that they have turned hostile towards elves in recent years. The elves are not omnipotent and the show hasn't shown that they had people watching port cities in the Southlands or actively patroling against Corsairs. There is an entire world of people out there that hasn't been under their thumb.

If one random chance encounter is capable of shaking the world, then yes I would say it's not reasonably comparable to Tolkien's original depiction of a secret Orc army that was able to move on Eregion in secret.

Lmao. Tolkien used change encounters all the time in order to shake the world. Bilbo finding the One Ring was a chance encounter. Sauron's army didn't move on Eregion in secret because his war started about 100 years after he revealed himself when creating/wearing the One Ring. Random Orc raiding parties also doesn't contradict Sauron regaining control of Orcs in secret. Remember Tolkien explicitly wrote that some Orc tribes ignored him because they didn't think Annatar was Sauron. Isn't it reasonable to think they might still have raiding parties and other "Daily life" things?

It also ignores how Sauron was already corrupting the lands of Men "in secret" as well. Which the elves didn't notice over that 600 year or so period before the One Ring was forged. So even in Tolkien's work the Elves were not fully aware of everything happening. What we are seeing on the show is the tail end of Sauron's "hidden" phase. As I said since the Elves were unaware of port cities being attacked with Orcs or having refugees or even the Kingdom Halbrand cane from it is clear how Orcish activity could remain unseen.

- - - Updated - - -

He's not talking about it being reasonable to the show. He's talking about it being reasonable within the context of Tolkien's fiction.

Okay lets try this one. Is it reasonable that Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Humans, and what not have to use the bathroom? Tolkien never writes about it so according to you it isn't something that his creations are required to do. They are required to consume food and drink but to never excrete waste. So if it is reasonable to assume they do that stuff isn't it reasonable to assume Orcs might raid and pillage? At least with Dwarves who inhabited the same mountain ranges as them? Wouldn't it be reasonable that over 1,000+ years Elves would know Orcs existed but without a master?

Though I've seen it said that Galadriel didn't give Sam a jar of dirt but a jar of her own poop. As the elves diet would make for excellent fertilizer. Lol.

[Triceron]

Right. That is what is being discussed and what you've argued against. As I said it would be reasonable for Orcs, with no master, to not remain 100% hidden over 1,000+ years.

Then you're shifting the argument for the purpose of arguing technicalities.

Are you considering the Watchtower and Halbrand's exodus to be trivial appearances of the Orcs that will otherwise keep them secret? We already know the cat's out of the bag.

Lmao. Tolkien used change encounters all the time in order to shake the world. Bilbo finding the One Ring was a chance encounter.

Yes but that is the canon.

If what you're arguing is some what-if scenario of Bilbo never finding the ring and posing it as a question of whether that'd be reasonable, I would say no. That wouldn't be reasonable because we it is not mere coincidence but even EXPLAINED the Ring has a will and influence to find a new Master.

So I refute that example that you use. You can feel free to try another if you wish.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He's not talking about it being reasonable to the show. He's talking about it being reasonable within the context of Tolkien's fiction.

As I said, if the show wants Orcs fearing the sun, burning in the sun, glittering like Twilight boys or whatever, then it can do it. But we can't retroactively apply this logic back to saying 'well it'd be reasonable in Tolkien's fiction too'. No, it wouldn't be unless Tolkien actually wrote about it.

And if we're talking about what Tolkien wrote about drowning, then we reasonably assume that Elves can and do drown because he wrote a side story about an Elf who swam into the open sea and was never heard of again. That'd be the only relevant case in Tolkien's own work.

Ya I get that he’s talking about retroactively apply what would be reasonable on the setting but aren’t you (and every one else) doing the same thing but to the show?

Like all of us thinking Glad would/could have drown is us retroactively applying real world logic and saying “well it'd be reasonable in Show to” even though we are never shown any thing to actually fit it.

Or even with Tolkiens work as you said he wrote a story about an elf who is never heard of again in the sea and pretty much every ones respond is “well it would be reasonable for him to have drown” even though Tolkien ever actually wrote about him drowning just him not being seen again which could have numerous other outcomes.

[Triceron]

Ya I get that he’s talking about retroactively apply what would be reasonable on the setting but aren’t you (and every one else) doing the same thing but to the show?

Like all of us thinking Glad would/could have drown is us retroactively applying real world logic and saying “well it'd be reasonable in Show to” even though we are never shown any thing to actually fit it.

Or even with Tolkiens work as you said he wrote a story about an elf who is never heard of again in the sea and pretty much every ones respond is “well it would be reasonable for him to have drown” even though Tolkien ever actually wrote about him drowning just him not being seen again which could have numerous other outcomes.

The difference is we're using these 'retroactively applied reasons' to disseminate the motivations and actions of characters.

The entire discussion of Galadriel drowning is whether she is self-aware of the risks she's taking when she jumps off the ship and tries to swim the full distance. And in her defense, some people have tried to argue that she could somehow be resistant to drowning and is physically superior to any mere mortal who would attempt the same. Even illustrating this by showing a story where an Elf swims beyond distance of sight (even though that same story implies he fucking drowned).

The criticism illustrated how an alternative scenario may have made more sense. It would have been more reasonable if Galadriel merely stole a ship and tried sailing back on her own. As she ended up being shown attempting in Numenor a couple episodes later.

Whether or not Elves drown was a mostly-pointless tangent from a completely different argument being made.

[rhorle]

Yes but that is the canon. Then you're shifting the argument for the purpose of arguing technicalities.

So why the double standard? Why can Tolkien use chance encounters but the show using a chance encounter is bad?

Then you're shifting the argument for the purpose of arguing technicalities.

Do you really think that for 500 years there was no evidence of Orcs? Or even zero between the end of the War of Wrath and the return of Sauron?

I didn't shift the argument. It is what the argument was about. I asked you a question using Tolkien's timeline to indicate how something on the show could be possible.

[Triceron]

So why the double standard? Why can Tolkien use chance encounters but the show using a chance encounter is bad?

I outright refuted your idea that Bilbo finding the Ring was a 'Chance encounter'. Are you even reading?

The Ring has a will of its own and seeks out a new master. How or why, I can't explain, but Tolkien says so and that's how Bilbo came about getting the Ring.

There is no double standard. You just can't fucking read.