Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He's not talking about it being reasonable to the show. He's talking about it being reasonable within the context of Tolkien's fiction.

As I said, if the show wants Orcs fearing the sun, burning in the sun, glittering like Twilight boys or whatever, then it can do it. But we can't retroactively apply this logic back to saying 'well it'd be reasonable in Tolkien's fiction too'. No, it wouldn't be unless Tolkien actually wrote about it.

And if we're talking about what Tolkien wrote about drowning, then we reasonably assume that Elves can and do drown because he wrote a side story about an Elf who swam into the open sea and was never heard of again. That'd be the only relevant case in Tolkien's own work.

Ya I get that he’s talking about retroactively apply what would be reasonable on the setting but aren’t you (and every one else) doing the same thing but to the show?

Like all of us thinking Glad would/could have drown is us retroactively applying real world logic and saying “well it'd be reasonable in Show to” even though we are never shown any thing to actually fit it.

Or even with Tolkiens work as you said he wrote a story about an elf who is never heard of again in the sea and pretty much every ones respond is “well it would be reasonable for him to have drown” even though Tolkien ever actually wrote about him drowning just him not being seen again which could have numerous other outcomes.

[Triceron]

Ya I get that he’s talking about retroactively apply what would be reasonable on the setting but aren’t you (and every one else) doing the same thing but to the show?

Like all of us thinking Glad would/could have drown is us retroactively applying real world logic and saying “well it'd be reasonable in Show to” even though we are never shown any thing to actually fit it.

Or even with Tolkiens work as you said he wrote a story about an elf who is never heard of again in the sea and pretty much every ones respond is “well it would be reasonable for him to have drown” even though Tolkien ever actually wrote about him drowning just him not being seen again which could have numerous other outcomes.

The difference is we're using these 'retroactively applied reasons' to disseminate the motivations and actions of characters.

The entire discussion of Galadriel drowning is whether she is self-aware of the risks she's taking when she jumps off the ship and tries to swim the full distance. And in her defense, some people have tried to argue that she could somehow be resistant to drowning and is physically superior to any mere mortal who would attempt the same. Even illustrating this by showing a story where an Elf swims beyond distance of sight (even though that same story implies he fucking drowned).

The criticism illustrated how an alternative scenario may have made more sense. It would have been more reasonable if Galadriel merely stole a ship and tried sailing back on her own. As she ended up being shown attempting in Numenor a couple episodes later.

Whether or not Elves drown was a mostly-pointless tangent from a completely different argument being made.

[rhorle]

Yes but that is the canon. Then you're shifting the argument for the purpose of arguing technicalities.

So why the double standard? Why can Tolkien use chance encounters but the show using a chance encounter is bad?

Then you're shifting the argument for the purpose of arguing technicalities.

Do you really think that for 500 years there was no evidence of Orcs? Or even zero between the end of the War of Wrath and the return of Sauron?

I didn't shift the argument. It is what the argument was about. I asked you a question using Tolkien's timeline to indicate how something on the show could be possible.

[Triceron]

So why the double standard? Why can Tolkien use chance encounters but the show using a chance encounter is bad?

I outright refuted your idea that Bilbo finding the Ring was a 'Chance encounter'. Are you even reading?

The Ring has a will of its own and seeks out a new master. How or why, I can't explain, but Tolkien says so and that's how Bilbo came about getting the Ring.

There is no double standard. You just can't fucking read.

[Syegfryed]

Duh. However it does explain why they didn't go get people with the sun rising. If they don't like the sun it makes sense for them to not go there if something isn't around to force them. It again fits Tolkien narrative that orcs are hesitant to go in the sun but can if forced too. You can ignore the quotes from tolkien that indicate this all you want. All that shows is that you can't handle the truth of Tolkien's work and ignore is just so you can complain.

Jus not liking something does not mean you cannot go in the sun, especially when you are covered, stopspitting this argument over and over

they have someone forcing then, they have a goal thy were forced to do, not going there is pure garbage plot convenience deus ex machina that this show have by the dozens

I am not cherry picking anything. Are you this desperate to be part of a discussion that you'll make up your own argument just to be involved? They keep arguing two different things that fear of the sun doesn't make sense, or fit with tolkien's work, and that the sun damaging them doesn't fit. I've taken issue with one but not the other. .

So you straight up confirm this does not fit tolkien vision, because this is not something tolkien wrote, but some shit the showrunners made up

Gladly you refute it yourself

[rhorle]

The Ring has a will of its own and seeks out a new master. How or why, I can't explain, but Tolkien says so and that's how it's generally explained how Bilbo came about getting the Ring.

That still doesn't change the fact that Tolkien wrote a chance encounter and later had it explained by Gandalf implying a higher power was at work. It wasn't the ring as it can't influence the entire world like that. Otherwise wouldn't it have had an orc? It is implied that a Valar helped out in tiny way.

“Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring and not by its maker.”

You are trying to argue an writing technique with an in-lore reasoning. That doesn't work. It also ignores how if they show later explains it in a similar way that I bet you'd still object to the chance encounter.

- - - Updated - - -

they have someone forcing then, they have a goal thy were forced to do, not going there is pure garbage plot convenience deus ex machina that this show have by the dozens

Who was forcing them at the time to run into the blazing rays of the rising sun? Which again doesn't contradict the vision of Tolkien since he quite often wrote about Orcs not wanting to go into the sun if they had a choice. He even created super orcs with out that weakness. As the Uruk-hai didn't tire as fast during the day like the "normal" orcs did. They were not weakened by the light and did not fear the light.

[Triceron]

That still doesn't change the fact that Tolkien wrote a chance encounter and later had it explained by Gandalf implying a higher power was at work. It wasn't the ring as it can't influence the entire world like that. Otherwise wouldn't it have had an orc? It is implied that a Valar helped out in tiny way.

Well then you're arguing against Tolkien's work, not me.

Again, if you want to start a new thread about Tolkien book criticisms, feel free to. I'm not going to be baited into an off-topic discussion of the books just because you want some parity.

Tolkien has a lot of questionable writing himself, but that is a completely separate discussion of what's happening in Rings of Power. Sorry but I'm not going to humor the discussion you want, it's really a completely different rabbit hole.

You can see that I'm not even comparing Rings of Power to Tolkien's work, so I'm not sure why you're trying to catch me in some 'double standard'. Everything being relative to Tolkien's work is merely contrasting the differences in how the two different plots play out, and how RoP is doing it differently and doesn't fit back into 'canon'.

You are trying to argue an writing technique with an in-lore reasoning. That doesn't work. It also ignores how if they show later explains it in a similar way that I bet you'd still object to the chance encounter.

I'm not criticizing the show for using chance encounters in the first place. Why the fuck are you even assuming this lol.

I made a point that the Orcs attacking HALBRAND'S VILLAGE ended up being the evidence Galadriel needed to muster forces in Numenor. You can't call this an insignificant Orc encounter that could have easily fit in Tolkien's work. It's not the fact it Orcs being found out or Halbrand meeting Galadriel was merely a chance encounter, it's the fact it's a SIGNFICANT revelation that is involving the Commander of the Elven Armies and the nation of Numenor into taking action in the Southlands.

We're all pointing this out because you're literally arguing that the Southlands arc does not affect the Orc army remaining secret. Yes, yes it does, because Rings of Power isn't telling the same story as the original canon and you're making up excuses that make no sense. They're already being outed and Galadriel is fully aware they are in the Southlands.

[rhorle]

Well then you're arguing against Tolkien's work, not me.

So it is bad to use the same writing style of the source material. Gotcha. It is amazing how some argue that Tolkien can't be improved on and no changes should occur while others argue that the show should improve on Tolkien and not use the same techniques that they claim are bad writing. This is why it is a double standard. You are holding the show to some higher standard then its source material. Why?

If something doesn't fit back into canon then you are comparing Rings of Power to Tolkien's work. Because his work is Canon. Lmao. It is crazy how you always contradict yourself and argue against your own statements.

[Syegfryed]

Who was forcing them at the time to run into the blazing rays of the rising sun? Which again doesn't contradict the vision of Tolkien since he quite often wrote about Orcs not wanting to go into the sun if they had a choice. He even created super orcs with out that weakness. As the Uruk-hai didn't tire as fast during the day like the "normal" orcs did. They were not weakened by the light and did not fear the light.

Oh, so you are saying they need someone PHYISICALLY at their side forcing then, having a leader who told then to get the item they were looking for for this whole time is not enough, they would left their life's job run away that easily just because "they don't like the sun', especially when the show already show they can go in the sun even when not liking like and not one forcing then like in the rebellion attempt. with Pelégolas

Sure buddy, thats some convenient plot for you isn't? Just as convenient as their arrows only working precisely when the people left the place where they shot,


Tolkien did not wrote orcs to be vampires, and you brought a quote that literally explain how the showrunners changed the orcs for the show, therefore, does not fit Tolkien view because its not like what he wrote. You though you would get a gotcha with the quote, but you just refuted yourself

Honestly, is rly inspiring how you can fight so frivolous for a mediocre and garbage show like this


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https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...rible-writing/

Things must be gone tits up for this to come up

[rhorle]

Oh, so you are saying they need someone PHYISICALLY at their side forcing then

So what psychic thing was forcing them at that moment? They can be afraid of the blazing rays of the sunrise without being a vampire. There was nothing shown to be present like Adar, Uruk-hai, or other "dark" creature. You keep ignoring how Tolkien displayed Orcs to have a fear of the light. The Northern Orcs (from Moria) wanted to halt and wait for Night time even though they had a task to do. The Uruk-hai forced them onwards.

[Triceron]

If something doesn't fit back into canon then you are comparing Rings of Power to Tolkien's work. Because his work is Canon. Lmao. It is crazy how you always contradict yourself and argue against your own statements.

Er, Rings of Power is its own 'universe/multiverse'. It has nothing directly to do with any other adaptation. It is not canon to the Book story.

There's no contradiction here. You're calling out double standards without acknowledging what's being said. You're cherry picking statements out of context to build false arguments. You're trying to tangent the argument onto criticizing Tolkien's own work, even though every argument I've made about the show is specific to the show, and literally saying none of this 'reasonable' bullshit applies back into the original canon.

Not sure where you're confused here.

Just sounds like you're shit posting for the sake of shit posting.

[rhorle]

Er, Rings of Power is its own 'universe/multiverse'. It has nothing directly to do with any other adaptation. It is not canon to the Book story.

So why is it okay for you to bring up how things relate to canon but when I do it I am wrong for doing so? Again a double standard where things are always good when you mention it but bad when others mention it. The contradiction is how you always call the show bad for doing things that show up in the source material. Chance encounters are not bad writing.

The "reasonable" stuff does apply back to Tolkiens work. Again Tolkien never talked about his world using the bathroom but it is reasonable to assume they do, right? And that Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, and Humans would have sewage systems since their surroundings are not depicted as covered in feces, right? This entire point was to counter your argument that only things explicitly stated by Tolkien can be assumed to happen in his "world".

That isn't the case because things he hasn't written about, like pooping, are reasonable to assume exist. It shows you are the one who is confused which might explain why yet again you go from having a discussion to insults.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Whether or not Elves drown was a mostly-pointless tangent from a completely different argument being made.

Ya sure but that’s not really my point, if you can’t say it’s reasonable for X to happen because Tolkien never wrote it how is that different then saying Y is reasonable even
Though it’s also never shown or written.

Or in other words is it not reasonable to say elfs can drown at all both in Tolkiens work or the show because neither the show nor Tolkien ever actually writes/shows that they can.

[Triceron]

So why is it okay for you to bring up how things relate to canon but when I do it I am wrong for doing so?

Yeah but I'M not the one relating to canon. IC is. I'm merely EXPLAINING what the situation is and why your explanations don't make sense.

Read all my replies to you. I haven't actually personally made any connection between the show and Tolkien's work as any statement to compare or contrast the two. I merely have pointed out how they're both different and your explanation that the Show's logic works for the Books doesn't work.

[tikcol]

It's amazing to see how some people only care about the lore when it's to mention the gaps in the books to justify stupid decisions and bad writting in the show.

You either care about the lore or you don't. You don't get to pick both out of convenience or blatant intellectual dishonesty

[rhorle]

Yeah but I'M not the one relating to canon. IC is. I'm merely EXPLAINING what the situation is and why your explanations don't make sense.

By using its relation to canon. You make connections when convenient for what you want to say while bashing it when others use it against you. You had no problem with anyone use it until you ran out of an argument and turned to insults and dismissal.

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You either care about the lore or you don't. You don't get to pick both out of convinience or blatant intellectual dishonesty

Just because they are not 1:1 copying lore doesn't mean that everything is made up by Amazon and there isn't merits in discussing how different it is. It is strange how you only comment to complain about others with veiled insults.

[Syegfryed]

So what psychic thing was forcing them at that moment? They can be afraid of the blazing rays of the sunrise without being a vampire. There was nothing shown to be present like Adar, Uruk-hai, or other "dark" creature. You keep ignoring how Tolkien displayed Orcs to have a fear of the light. The Northern Orcs (from Moria) wanted to halt and wait for Night time even though they had a task to do. The Uruk-hai forced them onwards.

How much time you are going to rehash the same shit that were already proven to be wrong in contrast of the show? its basically ad hoc rescue fallacy at this point, just give up, show refuted you, even you refuted yourself, its not worthy to hang on this, try to salvage another dead argument

[rhorle]

How much time you ae going to rehash the same shit that were already proven to be wrong in contrast of the show? its basically ad hoc rescue fallacy at this point, just give up, even you refuted yourself the show refuted you, its not worthy to hang on this, try to salvage another dead argument

I didn't refute anything I've said. The Orcs on the show have a fear of the light that the same as with the works of Tolkien. The difference is in what light does to the Orcs. Isn't it interesting how you can't say what was supposed to be present to mental force them to run into the blazing sun and instead dismiss and insult?

[Syegfryed]

I didn't refute anything I've said. The Orcs on the show have a fear of the light that the same as with the works of Tolkien. The difference is in what light does to the Orcs. Isn't it interesting how you can't say what was supposed to be present to mental force them to run into the blazing sun and instead dismiss and insult?

"the difference"

so you once again, confirm its different therefore does not fit the Tolkien view, because tolkien never wrote orcs as vampires. And yet, you still think you are right despite saying two different things.

[Aphrel]

im confused about the story in rings of power.

When is this taking place?

How is Sauron gonna betray everyone if hes already the badguy? Or has he already distributed his rings of power? Is this after that betrayal? Where are the rings now? (isnt galadriel supposed to be one of the elven ring bearers?)