Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[DarkAmbient]

im confused about the story in rings of power.

When is this taking place?

How is Sauron gonna betray everyone if hes already the badguy? Or has he already distributed his rings of power? Is this after that betrayal? Where are the rings now? (isnt galadriel supposed to be one of the elven ring bearers?)

Some time in the Second Age, although the precise year is unknown. The rings haven't been forged yet, which according to Tolkien places it before the year 1500. However, due to various things like Isildur being alive 1700 years before the rings are forged means the official timeline has been done away with.

Sauron hasn't yet been officially introduced into the show in terms of an actual on-screen character taking part in the story. One or two characters are under suspicion of being him but I don't think he's in the show yet.

[rhorle]

so you once again, confirm its different therefore does not fit the Tolkien view, because tolkien never wrote orcs as vampires. And yet, you still think you are right despite saying two different things.

I have never denied that the burning of skin on the show is different then the effects light has in the work of Tolkien. You keep arguing two different things. Fear of Light and "Vampire effects". I've stated that Tolkien has indicate they grow physically weaker in the light and the Uruk-hai do not have this weakness. I pointed out where the show exaggerates that part and the reasoning the writers of the show gave for why it happens.

That still doesn't mean they don't have a fear of the light independent of that "vampire"-like quality. As the show indicates they can go into the light but are still reluctant too. Which is why they could have charged into the blazing rays of the rising sun but did not. It wasn't because they would burn up and die but because they still harbor a fear of light. Which is similar to the way Tolkien employs their fear of light in his works.

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When is this taking place?

Between SA 1,200 and SA 3,441. Amazon is changing the order of events and condensing it down to shorter period of time. They wanted to be able to build the human characters up over the seasons instead of having to wait until late in the series and replace them after a season or a few episodes depending on any time skips.

Currently on the show the rings haven't been forged.

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When it's taking place? Somewhere in the second age, but it's actually a mix of second age and three, so whenever in there. Don't worry about it.

It is will cover the third age. Season 5 Episode 8 will end with Isildur taking the ring. So anything of the third age will be an "epilogue" only.

[Triceron]

By using its relation to canon. You make connections when convenient for what you want to say while bashing it when others use it against you. You had no problem with anyone use it until you ran out of an argument and turned to insults and dismissal.

Er, I merely pointed out how your argument didn't work in the context of IC's statements and relation to the books. He was making a point that the two scenarios are different, while for whatever reason you began to shift your argument to imply the attacks on Eregion in the show would be the same as what happens in the book when thr whole point you miss out in is the fact the Orcs are already known about in Rings of Power and is a completely different story. The situations wouldn't be comparable.

Not sure why you're suddenly trying to twist this to being a discussion about canon when I'm literally pointing out the show's current narrative isn't following the canon, nor could it be related to canon, in any way.

[rhorle]

Er, I merely pointed out how your argument didn't work in the context of IC's statements and relation to the books. He was making a point that the two scenarios are different.

He was making a point that the outpost on the show was a replacement for Eregion. That isn't true and my arguments support that to be the case. I didn't shift my argument at all and I didn't imply that the attacks on Eregion would be the same as in the books. I implied, which IC agreed with, that the attacks on Eregion would be shown later in the show.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Northmen#Second_Age
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gil-galad%27s_letter

Orcs were known about in Canon before the timeline period of the show. Of course it is a completly different story because you know Amazon has stated it isn't bound by canon. Why do you, and others, keep stating this as if it isn't a known fact. It still remains that IC is dead wrong on the Mordor arc being a replacement for Eregion and the secrecy of "Orcs". With the compressed timeline it is just an addition and likely there to explain that "growing threat in the east" instead of the letter from gil-galad that the show might not have the rights to use. If they do have the letter then it would have been a great addition to to the first episode. Numenoreans could have then been included at the Mordor watchpost. The rest of the show wouldn't even have to change as the complaceny angle could still apply with maybe a subtext of Annatar's involvement.

[rogoth]

im confused about the story in rings of power.

When is this taking place?

How is Sauron gonna betray everyone if hes already the badguy? Or has he already distributed his rings of power? Is this after that betrayal? Where are the rings now? (isnt galadriel supposed to be one of the elven ring bearers?)

1) yes, that is when this is all taking place, simply yes.

2) to properly answer your question, the amateur writers have decided it was a smart decision to compress thousands of years worth of events into the span of a few decades, they have even used wormhole technology to have events from the future happen BEFORE events from the past have even happened yet, to give you a practical example, imagine a tv show made a documentary of your life, and halfway through the first season they show you having fun with your grandchildren while you're still only a toddler in age.

3) Sauron was already known to all the free peoples of middle earth as servant of Morgoth, it's just that most are unaware of his power to shapeshift and don't fully realise who is he if he is stood in front of them until later in the ages after eru stripped him of his power to shapeshift into fair forms and he could only be represented in his 'true form'.

4) the rings haven't even been forged yet, see point #2 to explain why.

5) he hasn't even stepped out of whatever made up stronghold Amazon has him hiding in, so his grand plan isn't even known about yet.

6) rings aren't even forged yet, again see #2 for the reason why.

7) Galadriel is one of the three elven ring bearers alongside Gil-Galad and Cirdan the shipwright.

[Syegfryed]

I just went to one of the shows reddit to see what people would be talking about, and its even worse than some delusions here, there is even people praising the writers saying they have some big brains to think of such intricate plots like it was in wheel of time, it is indeed a big world we live in.

I have never denied that the burning of skin on the show is different then the effects light has in the work of Tolkien. You keep arguing two different things. Fear of Light and "Vampire effects". I've stated that Tolkien has indicate they grow physically weaker in the light and the Uruk-hai do not have this weakness. I pointed out where the show exaggerates that part and the reasoning the writers of the show gave for why it happens.

That still doesn't mean they don't have a fear of the light independent of that "vampire"-like quality. As the show indicates they can go into the light but are still reluctant too. Which is why they could have charged into the blazing rays of the rising sun but did not. It wasn't because they would burn up and die but because they still harbor a fear of light. Which is similar to the way Tolkien employs their fear of light in his works.

So you still want to keep hanging in the same wrong idea, and not only that, you now start saying they don't just dislike the sun but also fear it.

Lets reprhase with easy steps so even you can understand

- Tolkien did not wrote orcs like they are show in the series - vampires -, thats a fact, therefore, it does not fit tolkien view

- Exaggerating and changing what tolkien wrote does not mean they fit tolkien view, its literally the opposite

- The show is inconsistent in that and contradict itself by showing these orcs going in the sun just fine to another scene suddenly not wanting to, that would make a bit sense if they were butt-naked, but they weren't, they were covered, so their dislike, or made up fear is bullshit

In short, tis crap and garbage writing with plot convenience/deus ex machina, just like many other thing in the show and is laughable how avid you try to defend it.

[rhorle]

So you still want to keep hanging in the same wrong idea, and not only that, you now start saying they don't just dislike the sun but also fear it.

Dislike and Fear are the same thing in the context of this conversation and have been used interchangably before. You've even used fear in the from of afraid in your own comments.

Tolkien did not wrote orcs like they are show in the series - vampires -, thats a fact, therefore, it does not fit tolkien view

I never said Tolkien did. Tolkien did state that orcs are weaker in the sun (they tired faster then the Uruk-hai) and he created the Uruk-hai to not have these weaknesses.

The show is inconsistent in that and contradict itself by showing these orcs going in the sun just fine to another scene suddenly not wanting to, that would make a bit sense if they were butt-naked, but they weren't, they were covered, so their dislike, or made up fear is bullshit

Dislike of the sun is shown by Tolkien and the show doesn't contradict itself of Tolkien in depicting this. Their fear of the sun/light was clearly greater with the rising sun then it was with "normal" daylight. You've still yet to answer who was mentally forcing them to go at that time which shows you understand there is a difference and you understand that the show was depicting that fear.

[Syegfryed]

Dislike and Fear are the same thing in the context of this conversation and have been used interchangably before. You've even used fear in the from of afraid in your own comments.

No its not, you don't get to make up stuff like that

I said in the show, they seem to be afraid of the light, because it seems to burn then, which is again, not the tolkien view, that you so desperate try to make

I never said Tolkien did. Tolkien did state that orcs are weaker in the sun (they tired faster then the Uruk-hai) and he created the Uruk-hai to not have these weaknesses.

Therefore, the show does not fit the tolkien view, which you said it did.

Dislike of the sun is shown by Tolkien and the show doesn't contradict itself of Tolkien in depicting this.

It literally does because the show don't just show a dislike of the sun, but genuinely fear and physical damage, this proved by the episode and the showrunners itself

Since tolkien never wrote orcs being afraid of the sun and getting physically damaged by it, it contradict tolkien, end of the story. Its like saying their depiction of Galadriel fit Tolkien view, despite changing the fuck out of her, like by making she not having her daughter or her husband and ship her with Not-Sauron.

Its funny how you desperate try to nitpick this and ignore the whole premise of this is dumb and how this make the show worse with some dumb deus ex machina, because that you can argument against.

[Lady Atia]

The orcs could be red for all I care. The problem is the lack of consistency which once again proves the show is poorly written. This is just a drop in a watterfall of bullshit

Fun fact, PJ Uruk-Hai were actually red.

Also, RoP Orcs are both white and dark, so no clue why we are even discussing this whole thing tbh.

[Syegfryed]

Fun fact, PJ Uruk-Hai were actually red.

Also, RoP Orcs are both white and dark, so no clue why we are even discussing this whole thing tbh.

Red-ish, mostly full black or brown.

RoP orcs, as far i saw then, are only white, its like everyone is Azog but no one is cool like him.

[rhorle]

Since tolkien never wrote orcs being afraid of the sun and getting physically damaged by it, it contradict tolkien, end of the story.

Tolkien wrote them afraid of the sun and made weaker by the sun. So it doesn't fully contradict Tolkien. Also isn't funny how you can use afraid while complaining that I use fear and also say that fear and dislike hasn't be used interchangeable over the course of the discussion. If you are still struggling to understand I was calling you half right half wrong.

I've provided arguments against both inside the show and Tolkien's lore. Simply declaring there isn't an argument doesn't make it true, you know that right? I have a feeling you declare things a lot though.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gil-galad%27s_letter
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Vinyalond%C3%AB

[rogoth]

Tolkien wrote them afraid of the sun and made weaker by the sun. So it doesn't fully contradict Tolkien. Also isn't funny how you can use afraid while complaining that I use fear and also say that fear and dislike hasn't be used interchangeable over the course of the discussion. If you are still struggling to understand I was calling you half right half wrong.

I've provided arguments against both inside the show and Tolkien's lore. Simply declaring there isn't an argument doesn't make it true, you know that right? I have a feeling you declare things a lot though.

let me shut your entire asinine arguement up right here and now, here's an old phrase used in England: 'mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun', why is this important?, because it's describing what happened to old English gentlemen when they took their hunting dogs out hunting in the middle of the day, some would come back with heatstroke, it wasn't understood as to why this happened until MUCH LATER in time when medical science had evolved to understand the connection between sunlight being of a certain wavelength and it being harmful to the human body if exposed for enough of a time period.

when suffering chronic heatstroke a person will act very strangely, you could even say they act 'mad', the orcs of middle earth are written to be a caricature of that old English adage, a personification of it, where under the heat of the sun they act irrationally and 'mad' while not under it are more lucid and 'sane', THAT is why they fear the light, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the sunlight actively burning them akin to stereotypical vampirism, while sunlight will 'burn' the skin if exposed for long enough, it's not going to be a rapid almost combustion level burning.

you need to stop with your asinine defense of the indefensible, and stop trying to twist things to seem like you are making a valid point when the opposite is true.

[InfiniteCharger]

How can it replace something that will happen later in the series? You even stated it will happen later. That means it isn't a replacement but just an additional story thread. The series is a different sequence of events even with out the tower because they are compressing the timeline into a few hundred years. From Thousands to Hundreds. So of course the sequence of events are different from the books. Again, duh.

It is also silly to call the Watchtower a "major battle" when it is One elf and a handful of humans. We don't even know if Adar and his orcs are connected to Sauron at this point. So it doesn't automatically have to reveal to the world that Sauron is back because Orcs never went away completely. Even Tolkien had Orcs not following Sauron because of his disquise. So these could be those "independant" orcs wanting their own territory after seeing others doing stuff. It also doesn't mean that Annatar would be seen with more suspicion just because Orcs are making trouble. Besides Galadriel is sailing to Middle-Earth with an army to defeat Saruon. So her arc would be more of a replacement then Arondir's yet you haven't argued that. Strange, right?

You are focused on elevating an outpost with a tower into some greater meaning.

It is a replacement because those events never happened in the original lore. Taking time and effort to tell a completely made up story about characters and events at a Tower or in the region of the Southlands involving Orcs and Elves is literally a replacement for a story that almost exclusively took place around Eregion. And the series is showing you that the events at the tower with Arondir and Galadriel in Numenor are going to converge as a central point of the story. All of that is a replacement for the story that the rings of power were created by Sauron in disguise prior to being revealed leading to his forces emerging from hiding to attack Eregion.

[rhorle]

you need to stop with your asinine defense of the indefensible, and stop trying to twist things to seem like you are making a valid point when the opposite is true.

All you did is indicate that Tolkien was saying that Orcs would suffer heat stroke where other creatures would not. It is amazing how you can say so much while saying so little.

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It is a replacement because those events never happened in the original lore.

The word you are looking for is addition. Nothing is replaced but things are added. It didn't exclusively take place around Eregion as Gil-Galad asked the Numenorians to establish outposts to help combat the growing shadow in the east. The wars also took place in Eriador. Weird, right? The rings of power were not created with out Elves knowing of the growing threat. As Gil-Galad warns the Numenorian King in SA 882. The first rings were forged in 1,500 with the one ring forged in 1,600.

Isn't it strange how you claim something wasn't known when it happened 718 years before you claim they first found out? They didn't know it was Sauron but they knew orcs and other "evil" was up to something. Eregion wasn't sacked until 97 years after Sauron revealed himself and 4 years after he started a war with the elves.

So again. The RoP Mordor arc is not a replacement to the Eregion story in Canon. It is an addition. You yourself even stated that Eregion will appear later in the series which wouldn't be possible if it was replaced.

[rogoth]

All you did is indicate that Tolkien was saying that Orcs would suffer heat stroke where other creatures would not. It is amazing how you can say so much while saying so little.

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The word you are looking for is addition. Nothing is replaced but things are added. It didn't exclusively take place around Eregion as Gil-Galad asked the Numenorians to establish outposts to help combat the growing shadow in the east. The wars also took place in Eriador. Weird, right? The rings of power were not created with out Elves knowing of the growing threat. As Gil-Galad warns the Numenorian King in SA 882. The first rings were forged in 1,500 with the one ring forged in 1,600.

Isn't it strange how you claim something wasn't known when it happened 718 years before you claim they first found out? They didn't know it was Sauron but they knew orcs and other "evil" was up to something. Eregion wasn't sacked until 97 years after Sauron revealed himself and 4 years after he started a war with the elves.

So again. The RoP Mordor arc is not a replacement to the Eregion story in Canon. It is an addition. You yourself even stated that Eregion will appear later in the series which wouldn't be possible if it was replaced.

i said everything you need to know, it's not my fault you lack the necessary grey matter to understand the point being made, i could probably explain it to you as if you were a 5 year old and you still wouldn't understand the point, it's that severe lack of necessary thinking skill that keeps you arguing against a brick wall, thank you for once again proving you're incapable of seeing a bigger picture, you're incapable of nuance, you're incapable of logical thought processes and must be told in a very binary manner before you understand something.


as an aside wonder how long it's gonna take before Amazon deleting 10's of thousands of 1* reviews AFTER they were all approved previously in one of the most desperate attempts of damage control that has been seen in recent memory.

[Dhrizzle]

Ya sure but that’s not really my point, if you can’t say it’s reasonable for X to happen because Tolkien never wrote it how is that different then saying Y is reasonable even
Though it’s also never shown or written.

Or in other words is it not reasonable to say elfs can drown at all both in Tolkiens work or the show because neither the show nor Tolkien ever actually writes/shows that they can.

Lots of Elves drowned, usually in storms. Uinen killed a bunch of Noldor after the First Kinslaying, the crew of the ship sent by Turgon drowned with only Voronwë saved because Ulmo had a job for him, Amroth (sometimes Galadriel's son) also drowned and Elwing (Elrond's mum) probably expected to drown if Ulmo hadn't turned her into a huge frickin' bird.

So the answer to "can Elves drown" is "not if a higher power doesn't want them to," like the higher power Galadriel says is responsible for her and Helbrand coming together.

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let me shut your entire asinine arguement up right here and now, here's an old phrase used in England: 'mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun', why is this important?, because it's describing what happened to old English gentlemen when they took their hunting dogs out hunting in the middle of the day, some would come back with heatstroke, it wasn't understood as to why this happened until MUCH LATER in time when medical science had evolved to understand the connection between sunlight being of a certain wavelength and it being harmful to the human body if exposed for enough of a time period.

The phrase refers to the stubborn English habit of not adopting local customs and taking afternoon strolls in the hotter parts of the empire. Comparing them to mad dogs was just a way of hammering home how stupid the activity was, it had nothing to do with hunting dogs.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Lots of Elves drowned, usually in storms. Uinen killed a bunch of Noldor after the First Kinslaying, the crew of the ship sent by Turgon drowned with only Voronwë saved because Ulmo had a job for him, Amroth (sometimes Galadriel's son) also drowned and Elwing (Elrond's mum) probably expected to drown if Ulmo hadn't turned her into a huge frickin' bird.

So the answer to "can Elves drown" is "not if a higher power doesn't want them to," like the higher power Galadriel says is responsible for her and Helbrand coming together.

The question wasn't really "can elfs drown" it was rather its rather you can say something is reasonable if it's not directly stated in the text/shown as Triceron Said if Tolkien didn't put it in the text you cant say it's reasonable to have happened.

Drowning was just an example Because he was comparing elf's and men drowning in the show a week or so ago and as we don't actually see any one drown in the show and he also brought up that one story where the guy wasn't seen again but it wasn't explicitly said he drown as far as I know.

[rogoth]

Lots of Elves drowned, usually in storms. Uinen killed a bunch of Noldor after the First Kinslaying, the crew of the ship sent by Turgon drowned with only Voronwë saved because Ulmo had a job for him, Amroth (sometimes Galadriel's son) also drowned and Elwing (Elrond's mum) probably expected to drown if Ulmo hadn't turned her into a huge frickin' bird.

So the answer to "can Elves drown" is "not if a higher power doesn't want them to," like the higher power Galadriel says is responsible for her and Helbrand coming together.

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The phrase refers to the stubborn English habit of not adopting local customs and taking afternoon strolls in the hotter parts of the empire. Comparing them to mad dogs was just a way of hammering home how stupid the activity was, it had nothing to do with hunting dogs.

it was a phrase coined by the late Rudyard Kipling, referencing predominantly English Gentlemen in India during the main period of Imperial rule, specifically those English gentlemen who would take their dogs out hunting the local wildlife for sport, particularly the Bengal tiger, it was noted that these English gentlemen were 'mad' to go out during the hottest part of the day, and while that is a true enough statement it was learned years later that it also had to do with the behavioural change seen in the hunting dogs due to severe heatstroke making them act in a 'mad' way, running around in circles, not obeying commands, and frothing at the mouth and gnashing their teeth, the phrase was made popular by the song of the same name by Noel Coward, it was this specific behavioural change that the Orcs are exhibiting, and through word of mouth like an old wives tale they as a species have been indoctrinated to fear the sun because of the 'madness' and 'fear' it can cause them due to exposure.

i feel like quoting Aslan here, because i'm sick and fed up of having to explain the point being made to multiple people multiple times because they are incapable of understanding said point from the information provided to them, in future, don't try and sound like a smart arse it doesn't suit you.

[rhorle]

i feel like quoting Aslan here, because i'm sick and fed up of having to explain the point being made to multiple people multiple times because they are incapable of understanding said point from the information provided to them, in future, don't try and sound like a smart arse it doesn't suit you.

Orcs are not the only creature that dislikes the light. Their dislike has roots in them being created when it was eternal night and not some made up word of mouth campaign to indoctrinate them. As I said Tolkien in the Hobbit and LotR has indicated that sunlight has an effect on Orcs. The Moria orcs were tiring faster then then Uruk-hai during the day but had no problem during the night. There is a reason why the Uruk-hai were created to not have that weakness and why the skies were made dark by both Morgoth and Sauron.

You may believe it is indoctrination and some reference to India. That very well might be the inspiration from Tolkien (is it stated in a letter?) but it still doesn't change that it isn't a made up thing as Tolkien wrote their fear and effects into Canon.

Thus because of the curse that lay upon them the Noldor achieved nothing, while Morgoth hesitated, and the dread of light was new and strong upon the Orcs….

East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight….

[Syegfryed]

So the answer to "can Elves drown" is "not if a higher power doesn't want them to," like the higher power Galadriel says is responsible for her and Helbrand coming together..

Power also called Deus ex Machina, or Plot armor