Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The issue with that then becomes they had to have tunnels/traps set near the tower/between the Tower and the north. Yet the humans all make it to the tower with no issues, meaning it would have to be in the north. This means orcs got around/past the Elves with none the wiser to setup a trap for them than then also captured all of them.

They don't necessarily have to go to the tower or even town it self the elves could have been caught mid travel away from the tower as we know they were going to leave when black elf went to go see his girl friend and they could have departed around the same time.

[rhorle]

Because the topic of this thread is Rings of Power and not the Tolkien books?

So you see no reason why the Author of the work the show is based on is relevant? Isn't it strange how here you are arguing the source material and Tolkien can't be referenced in a discussion about the show while at the same time others have complained that the show doesn't have enough of Tolkien and the source material? Lmao.

That is on top of your unrealistic expectation that a show has to define Dwarves, Elves, and offer a introductory class on its world prior to showing even the first episode. What show has every done that? Made its viewers an expert on its world prior to watching any or all of its episodes? This is again where your bias shows through because you are setting impossible expectations for the show then complaining when they are not met.

[Rageonit]

See, that's where you're drawing a completely speculative conclusion though. The Humans wouldn't have to conquer the watchtower to carry on nefarious deeds if they were to do it the same was as the Orcs making tunnels without being seen by the Elves. Think about it this way - if the Humans loyal to Sauron had the guidance of Adar to work under the watch of the Elves, in many ways like Theo already does in finding that evil sword, then what would be the difference to what the Orcs are already capable of?

You're ignoring one big difference here: the humans are being observed (for generations even) by the elves, while the orcs are not even known to exist. In all of those years of keeping an eye on the humans, the elves see nothing that would suggest they are cooperating with some malicious force (because, obviously, they don't). It would take a lot more cunning to deceive the elves while being observed than while living in the shadows, that's for sure. I highly doubt the humans we see in the show would be capable of that level of cunning, but that's just me.

And yes, some events are timed conveniently, like in most plots known to the humanity (Lord of the Rings - the book - has some convenient moments too, ie. the eagles appearing just in time, but not only). But the watchers being called back at that particular point in time is just a single facet of a bigger story arc of elves growing complacent and oblivious to threats. It's convenient, but it keeps the story succint (and the show's already slow in the first episodes), so I can live with that.

Which makes the whole narrative purpose of the watchtower contrived. You're explaining how purposeless it is in the story overall for me. I don't even need to tell you how pointless it is to be the center of this narrative, you already realize it.

But why would the tower need any more reason to exist? Was it said somewhere that it's central to the plot...? Why would you give that tower more meaning than it has to have? Surely, there are plenty of towers in the world; this particular one has an important character manning it, so we get to know a bit of its story. Is it so difficult to believe that there is a tower in the world that had some importance in the past, but with time, lost most of it? Is it difficult to believe that the elves would leave a small unit there "just in case", even though there was no immediate threat? I mean, if there was a war somewhere in the world and the elves would send half of their army to a tower in the middle of nowhere, that would be rather sketchy, but it's a time of peace - surely you can spare like five people to man a tower (until you decide there's no point anymore, like they do in the show?). Every made-up world has a history we don't need to know in detail, so why do you make so much fuss about a tower manned by a handful of soliders of no real importance? Does every tower have to have an important meaning?

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5. All of them in a tower on a mountains edge are ambushed AND CAPTURED?

Do you even watch the show, mate? When Arondir and Bronwyn travel to the village, Bronwyn asks Arondir where are the other elves and he replies: "They are probably looking for me" (or something to that extent), because they were supposed to leave already. So no, they were not in the tower.
I'll end it here, and you let me know when you actually watch the show.

[bledgor]

They don't necessarily have to go to the tower or even town it self the elves could have been caught mid travel away from the tower as we know they were going to leave when black elf went to go see his girl friend and they could have departed around the same time.

Hence my north comment, as I believe the tower is in the northern end of the valley between the two mountains. Unless the orcs tunneled through mountains or went all the way around/over, they would have to tunnel/travel near the tower to get past them for a trap. The other option is the orcs are located between where the elves/southlanders are and the north, which I would struggle with too.

Like I said a few posts up, if instead of capturing all these elves they had Arondir's buddy tell them they fought a fierce battle and many elves died, but he believes some got away to warn others, I am okay with it. Repeating myself, but then you have him suggest they need to escape because the orcs are in wildly larger numbers than expected/tunneling which is worrying since the Elf reinforcements will be expecting a dumb band of orcs in the open and could get ambushed. This also allows you to have your mini helms deep moment (as much as I dislike it) with the reinforcements at dawn but watchers have some foreshadowing rather than having to fill in every gap and full on ass pull later.

Do you even watch the show, mate? When Arondir and Bronwyn travel to the village, Bronwyn asks Arondir where are the other elves and he replies: "They are probably looking for me" (or something to that extent), because they were supposed to leave already. So no, they were not in the tower.
I'll end it here, and you let me know when you actually watch the show.

So now I have to infer that Arondir saying "they are probably looking for me" means hours after he left EVERY elf went looking for him and got ambushed? No they wouldn't possible send his one buddy who has been working with him/knows him well to find him? The others don't have to pack up supplies/get ready to move out of the tower? REALLY? Okay mate, lets just agree to disagree, cause you are making my brain hurt. I have watched the show, I just don't turn my brain off when I do.

[Triceron]

So you see no reason why the Author of the work the show is based on is relevant? Isn't it strange how here you are arguing the source material and Tolkien can't be referenced in a discussion about the show while at the same time others have complained that the show doesn't have enough of Tolkien and the source material? Lmao.

I'm not the one making those complaints though, so you can't call me out for being biased when you're clearly having a problem with other people's arguments. And I'm not putting any stipulations on what 'can or can not' be discussed, I'm literally telling you why I'm not doing what you're accusing me of doing.

It's not strange at all that I'm criticizing the show for its own problems and not merely for 'veering from Tolkien's work'. I don't hold Tolkien's own work on any pedestal here, since I've always been a critic of anyone taking the Second Age and turning it into a show because it was really never set up to be one. It's an epic that spans thousands of years which is not really meant to be translated to the 'big screen'.

Everything I've pointed out about RoP's flaws are directly a result of its own narrative. I'm not sure what else you're trying to project on to my argument here, perhaps you're getting me confused with other people you're arguing with?

That is on top of your unrealistic expectation that a show has to define Dwarves, Elves, and offer a introductory class on its world prior to showing even the first episode. What show has every done that? Made its viewers an expert on its world prior to watching any or all of its episodes? This is again where your bias shows through because you are setting impossible expectations for the show then complaining when they are not met.

Then imagine the impression of what a newcomer to the series would expect of Elves if all they see were them constantly being set up to fail, with only Galadriel and Arondir being the only characters who seemed to be capable of anything. I don't think you have enough forethought to consider this since your own bias has clouded your judgement, like you thinking the Elves actually hit the Snow Troll.

I mean your failure to even admit to this mistake shows how stubborn and delusional you're capable of being to put unrealistic standards on other people's expectations. You'd argue that the show is free from criticisms because you don't even acknowledge them existing, you just change the show entirely to imply the Elves hit the Snow Troll and it was more than enough to establish that they were capable fighters and that there was never any problem with the way the show handles their portrayal.

If you can't even admit a little mistake for us to reach a common ground, then I'm gonna continue illustrating how pointless your argument is considering you're ready to change the events of the show for the sake of arguing.

How can you possibly realize my point if you're unwilling to acknowledge the things I'm criticizing even happened in the show?

[Rageonit]

So now I have to infer that Arondir saying "they are probably looking for me" means hours after he left EVERY elf went looking for him and got ambushed? REALLY? Okay mate, lets just agree to disagree, cause you are making my brain hurt.

You've just said they were ALL in the tower even though in the show we learn that is not true. Like I've said, watch it before trying to discuss it, you'll do everyone a favor, because I don't have enough time to correct you.

[rhorle]

I mean your failure to even admit to this mistake shows how stubborn and delusional you're capable of being to put unrealistic standards on other people's expectations.

I acknowledged that them hitting it was an argument that isn't worth having and it looked like they never did even though they engaged in fighting the troll. That happened weeks ago and there is no point in your bringing it up as it has no relevance to anything being discussed now. Lmao. Let it go. Accept that you once again lost an argument online. I did despite your claims I didn't.

No show is expected to give a primer on the entire world before it airs. You are assigning unrealistic expectations to this show. Why?

[bledgor]

You've just said they were ALL in the tower even though in the show we learn that is not true. Like I've said, watch it before trying to discuss it, you'll do everyone a favor, because I don't have enough time to correct you.

1. Arondir says they are PROBABLY looking for him, he doesn't know.
2. In no fucking world would they send every elf to look for him, and not 1/his buddy elf to look for him.
3. He has been gone what, hours(?) at the point he said that.

So you are again inferring things as we are shown nothing. You don't even get his buddy saying we were captured looking for you while they are in the orc trench, so the show doesn't support you again. Try again to defend this shitty work with 0 facts and 0 logic, I'll wait.

Actually naw fuck this, you aren't worth wasting time on.

[Rageonit]

So you are again inferring things as we are shown nothing.

The same thing you're doing... because we were not shown how it happened. Or are you using a crystal ball?
At least I got my facts straight, while you can't even follow a simple plot (or just didn't watch it).

[Triceron]

You're ignoring one big difference here: the humans are being observed (for generations even) by the elves, while the orcs are not even known to exist. In all of those years of keeping an eye on the humans, the elves see nothing that would suggest they are cooperating with some malicious force (because, obviously, they don't). It would take a lot more cunning to deceive the elves while being observed than while living in the shadows, that's for sure. I highly doubt the humans we see in the show would be capable of that level of cunning, but that's just me.

And yes, some events are timed conveniently, like in most plots known to the humanity (Lord of the Rings - the book - has some convenient moments too, ie. the eagles appearing just in time, but not only). But the watchers being called back at that particular point in time is just a single facet of a bigger story arc of elves growing complacent and oblivious to threats. It's convenient, but it keeps the story succint (and the show's already slow in the first episodes), so I can live with that.

I have no problems with the timing and conveniences themselves, but it is all a symptom to a larger world-building problem - that being what the actual purpose of the Watchtower would be if they actually detected a problem. And we're being shown that the entire system has become so lax and complacent that it might not even have mattered if they were captured or if the Humans actually did something. The Elves are shown in a position to be easily exploited by someone who understood their craft - a villain like Adar. And that's why I used that example.

Orcs are supposed to be just as incompetent, if not moreso, than Humans. That they are working so organized and sneakily under the noses of the Elves is another story contrivance that doesn't really work well in the overall world building. Elves are supposed to be believed to be far-seeing and aware. We even have Elrond establishing this in one episode with how far he can see and how much he is able to observe when Galadriel is sailing off.

And for the Orcs to happen to do this all under the noses of the Elves and then suddenly reveal their hand by burning villages while still trying to be secret makes little sense overall. What does this say about Adar's plan? Did he want his Orcs to be revealed now? Did he know the Elves were about to head back and capture them intentionally? Or was it mere convenience that he was able to capture them? We don't really know. It's all quite ambiguous, and we can't tell what's actually happening in the plot other than it all being a sequence of conveniences for both the good guys and bad guys and the narrative overall.

And it makes the whole arc feel like it lacks purpose, other than being set up to fail and be the catalyst for some bigger plot later.

But why would the tower need any more reason to exist? Was it said somewhere that it's central to the plot...? Why would you give that tower more meaning than it has to have?

That it is one of the major Point of View plotlines in this series/season is reason to point out that it's central to the plot. If it weren't, then I would argue that the show shouldn't even make this a Point of View arc at all. It could merely be a footnote in the some other sideplot that merely mentions 'A watchtower in the south was overtaken by Orcs!' or something to that effect. I would have no problem with that since it doesn't illustrate how complacent the Elves were at their job as we currently have with this POV arc.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Hence my north comment, as I believe the tower is in the northern end of the valley between the two mountains. Unless the orcs tunneled through mountains or went all the way around/over, they would have to tunnel/travel near the tower to get past them for a trap.

Well that's the thing if the elves were already in travel the orc's wouldn't need to make it all the way up to the tower they could have traps set away from it that the elfs stumble into while heading home.

assuming of course they the elf's don't go further north some how.

[rhorle]

I have no problems with the timing and conveniences themselves, but it is all a symptom to a larger world-building problem - that being what the actual purpose of the Watchtower would be if they actually detected a problem. And we're being shown that the entire system has become so lax and complacent that it might not even have mattered if they were captured or if the Humans actually did something. The Elves are shown in a position to be easily exploited by someone who understood their craft - a villain like Adar. And that's why I used that example.

But why is that a world building problem? Why is it that you think a world can only be built when the bad guys don't exploit a weakness of the good guys? Why do you have to know the plan of Adar in order for it to be good world building? You are really reaching for excuses including things that aren't supported by the source material. As orcs are capable of doing things not incompetent by nature. Wait, I forgot. We can't bring the source material into a discussion about the show even though the show didn't reference orcs as only being incompetent. In fact it shows they are very competent. So you can bring in outside influences but no one else can. Strange.

The entire thing would be a footnote if a main character was not there. The arc does show how complacent the elves were with their job which again shows you are ignoring the world building of the show for the sake of your argument. Arondir hears a potential threat but doesn't report it. Elves say that they have no purpose there anymore. They are happy to be withdrawn finally. All things that show the elves were not fanatically approaching their job at the time.

[Rageonit]

I have no problems with the timing and conveniences themselves, but it is all a symptom to a larger world-building problem - that being what the actual purpose of the Watchtower would be if they actually detected a problem. And we're being shown that the entire system has become so lax and complacent that it might not even have mattered if they were captured or if the Humans actually did something. The Elves are shown in a position to be easily exploited by someone who understood their craft - a villain like Adar. And that's why I used that example.

Yes, and things like that happen all the time. People get complacent (elves too) after a long time of peace and boredom. Why is it surprising? Years, and years, and years have passed, and the biggest threats the elves in the tower had to face were... what exactly? Some people in the village giving them hateful looks? It's not surprising at all that the tower ceased to serve its purpose. It would be unbelievable the other way around: if, after all of those years, the elves were vigilant to... again, what exactly? Orcs jumping out of the bushes after how many years of not being seen?

Really, the show has some facepalm moments (like the whole Galadriel-in-the-sea shenanigans), but this one ain't it.

Orcs are supposed to be just as incompetent, if not moreso, than Humans. That they are working so organized and sneakily under the noses of the Elves is another story contrivance that doesn't really work well in the overall world building.

That would be a valid complaint if the orcs were working alone. They are not - they are being led by someone possibly more cunning, aware and far-seeing than the elves. Adar knows about them, but they know nothing of him. He has a clear advantage - and, just by looking at him, you know that HE knows what are the strenghts of the elves and how to work against them.

[Triceron]

I acknowledged that them hitting it was an argument that isn't worth having and it looked like they never did even though they engaged in fighting the troll. That happened weeks ago and there is no point in your bringing it up as it has no relevance to anything being discussed now. Lmao. Let it go. Accept that you once again lost an argument online. I did despite your claims I didn't.

No show is expected to give a primer on the entire world before it airs. You are assigning unrealistic expectations to this show. Why?

No one says they need to give a primer on the entire world.

They need to give a primer on the key things they want to establish as being notable before they assert any subversion of expectations. Instead the show jumps straight to subverting expectations without giving the audience something to expect. That is the problem.

Anything that the show draws expectations of is built off of a pre-established understanding that people have watched Lord of the Rings or understand the content. Otherwise, the story itself does a poor job of making the Elves seem competent at all, because as I've explained, they aren't actually even shown to be all that accomplished.

And for you to embellish this criticism to saying the entire world needs a primer shows how much you're willing to dismiss this argument in bad faith. Where did I say the entire world needed a primer? I've been very clear on what needs to be primed, and it is the content of the main POVs that they're presenting. If we're talking about the Elves, then it's about the Elves.

I'll even compare this to the Harfoots. They did a fantastic job of setting these guys up, and we know what they are capable of, what they're all about. They're accomplished in their own ways, and they're fallible in their own ways. They haven't just been completely set up to fail with an expectation that you'd know their accomplishments through other movies having established them. The Elves on the other hand have had far less set up for their accomplishments, even with the revelation that they won against Morgoth. More was said than shown about this, and even less was put to light on what they're capable of in warfare.

As a point of reference, the Peter Jackson LOTR opening did this well by having that one scene where the Elves swing their swords in succession and cut down a bunch of Orcs. It's a cool moment that establishes the Elves' capability in warfare. Now I will contrast this to Rings of Power, which has no scene like this established for the Elves at all. None. We see them in combat, but never in any accomplished way. We see the aftermath of the war, but only focusing on their losses. Nothing about this shows the Elves at being the height of their power and accomplishment in this age. It's merely presented through exposition or implication through the King is announcing that evil has been rid from the world.

[Orby]

I kind of feel that unlike most I am on such a fence sitting position on this show, where I like it fine, but recognise the show has issues that annoy me. Imagine that, nuance.

[tikcol]

Yes, the Elves in the Hobbit were quite incompetent in letting them slip, but they were still shown to be skillful for having been able to capture the Dwarves in the first place and being able to wage war with them at the Battle of 5 Armies.

Where have we seen the Elves at the Watchtower actually doing anything competent prior to being captured? Seemed like they couldn't do anything useful. They never captured an Orc, they never saw any hints at their movement or tunneling, everything happened under their watch.

The comparison here is if in the Hobbit, the Dwarves were able to infiltrate the Elven city, steal their wine barrels and continue without ever being noticed by Elves. Understand how incompetent the Elves would be in comparison?



That's a huge fucking failure then. They had one job lol

Let's not forget the Hobbit with the ring that made him invisible which is the whole reason they managed to escape at all lol

The poster you're quoting conviniently left that part out which makes his comparison moot. Maybe the orcs have the ring of power.. Oh no !

[Triceron]

Really, the show has some facepalm moments (like the whole Galadriel-in-the-sea shenanigans), but this one ain't it.

It is a symptom of a greater problem as I said. The fact that the watchtower itself is utterly pointless because it's not implied to be capable of subduing any evil even if it were to be observed.

To merely say 'yeah it happens all the time, people get complacent' would then undermine the importance of Arondir as well. Do you consider his character a product of complacency then, and part of the problem? Because the show isn't doing this at all, and implying the Arondir is the only one who found out the Orc plot, who has seen the man behind the Orcs, and who lives to tell about it.

It's a contrived plotline so far, and that, IMO, is a symptom of a greater problem.

That would be a valid complaint if the orcs were working alone. They are not - they are being lead by someone possibly more cunning, aware and far-seeing than the elves. Adar knows about them, but they know nothing of him. He has a clear advantage - and, just by looking at him, you know that HE knows what are the strenghts of the elves and how to work against them.

I'm hoping that they resolve it in a way that makes sense and feel earned. I don't have a good feeling about it based on how short-sighted much of the rest of the arc has been planned out though.

Like as I said, if Adar is really playing 4D chess, why show his hand at a point in time when Arondir could have found out and escaped to notify the rest of the Elves? His capture was not guaranteed, nor was the capture of any of the other Elves at the time. Or why would he let Arondir escape, which ended up allowing him to save the kid who had the blade that they were looking for? There are so many odd little points of convenience that don't feel earned in the grand scheme of things. It's more like everyone is just incompetent and being thwarted by their own means. And I'm not sure how I would feel even if Adar ends up 'winning' at the end and obtaining the blade. Like, he could have gotten it much sooner if he didn't let Arondir go and save the kid who was going to be found by his Orcs anyways....

As I said, the narrative feels contrived, and that is the current point of criticism I'm illustrating here. Even though there might not be anything as bad as what we've seen with Galadriel's plot, it's heading in that direction with what we know so far of the arc.

[rhorle]

No one says they need to give a primer on the entire world.

It builds heavily off the expectation that the audience must have watched Lord of the Rings to understand what an Elf or a Dwarf or a Wizard is. That is part of the problem I point out, because it doesn't do enough to establish these characters and their capabilities on their own prior to unfolding the story.

You did. You said that it Elves, Dwarves, Wizards, etc all should have had their identities established prior to being shown on screen. You want them to build the world out prior to showing those parts of the world on screen. Nothing shown requires you to have watched Lord of the Rings to understand. You will get a deeper meaning of names, locations, and hints at characters by knowing the source material but it isn't required to understand anything about the show. You claim you don't want the entire world while also saying it is a requirement for the contents of the main characters arcs. Which is essentially the world as that is what those arcs exist in and the reference used to frame those arcs.

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Let's not forget the Hobbit with the ring that made him invisible which is the whole reason they managed to escape at all lol The poster you're quoting conviniently left that part out which makes his comparison moot. Maybe the orcs have the ring of power.. Oh no !

I didn't mention it because it wasn't relevant to the point. I was talking about the orcs chasing them to the doorstep of the elves. It wasn't about the escape from being prisoners. Strange how context matters, right? It was to point out how the elves were complacent even with "evil" crossing their own territory. It wasn't their concern because it wasn't a big threat since those were all supposed to be gone, right?

[Rageonit]

It is a symptom of a greater problem as I said. The fact that the watchtower itself is utterly pointless because it's not implied to be capable of subduing any evil even if it were to be observed.

No, it's consistent with the whole premise (and builds the story of evil being able to resurface, because after a long period of peace we grow complacent - which is absolutely, 100% true). Rather, it would be difficult to believe that a random bunch of elves in the middle of nowhere is vigilant to some unknow threat, while their own king is calling off guards around the world because he believes they serve no purpose anymore. The example comes from the top.

It doesn't undermine Arondir at all. There are always individuals who think differently - and Arondir is one of them - but most just follows suit. It's absolutely natural and believable. That's what makes Arondir special, contraty to most other "people" or "elves". That's what makes him a protagonist and not just another elf. Nothing's contrived here, it all makes sence in the story.

As for Adar - there's no reason to speculate. We will find out.

[Triceron]

But why is that a world building problem? Why is it that you think a world can only be built when the bad guys don't exploit a weakness of the good guys? Why do you have to know the plan of Adar in order for it to be good world building? You are really reaching for excuses including things that aren't supported by the source material. As orcs are capable of doing things not incompetent by nature. Wait, I forgot. We can't bring the source material into a discussion about the show even though the show didn't reference orcs as only being incompetent. In fact it shows they are very competent. So you can bring in outside influences but no one else can. Strange.

Put yourself in Adar's shoes and try to make sense of his actions.

If you were looking for the dark blade, would you take risks that may allow the Elves to signal for help, or release them to 'inform the humans' when you're already in a position of having near-full control of the Southlands?

His actions are contrary to someone who was already so capable to be working in secrecy under the noses of the Elves for what could be weeks or months by now, considering how extensive the tunnels had been once they were found.

The entire thing would be a footnote if a main character was not there. The arc does show how complacent the elves were with their job which again shows you are ignoring the world building of the show for the sake of your argument. Arondir hears a potential threat but doesn't report it. Elves say that they have no purpose there anymore. They are happy to be withdrawn finally. All things that show the elves were not fanatically approaching their job at the time.

Which is my point. I even stated blatantly that this arc so far is quite pointless, and be satisfied just the same if it were a footnote in another subplot that merely states 'A watchtower was overtaken by Orcs in the Southlands!'.

The entire setting we have right now is contrived and set up for one purpose- introducing Arondir's character and purpose in the story. That's all. If not for this one character, the entire plot would merely be a footnote.

I'd go as far as saying you could probably edit out all of the Arondir plot in S1, jump straight into S2 with 'A watchtower was overtaken by Orcs in the Southlands!' and have his character be introduced that way and nothing would be remiss. The current Arondir plot isn't really being shown as all that important to the overall narrative so far; we don't really need this arc to show that troubles are rising in the Southlands. The entire Galadriel arc already establishes this in the greater narrative through the Mark reveal. And I would prefer this over the current arc, since it doesn't illustrate this event being a result of Elven complacency; it's not something I feel is important to the overall narrative or world building since the idea that Evil is growing in the shadows is already well established in Galadriel's arc. The complacency can be attributed to Gil Galad's decision to pull back his troops. The watchtower could have been implied to be taken over by Orcs when the Elves already left.


This being said, I'm still going to reserve a full judgement of the situation till the full season comes out. I'm merely pointing out how the current Arondir arc feels contrived and lacking any real purpose other than to set it up to fail. It's literally something that could be accomplished through being a footnote, and I personally don't regard this character being so important to the overall narrative to fully understand why the show is deciding to make this one of the major POV arcs in the first place. Considering I've been adamantly critical about the pacing of this show and how the plot is slow to progress, I'd say editing out this entire arc and putting in a narrative that moves the plot forward would have been a better use of time. In current retrospect, this arc feels like 'Filler'.