Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Mace]

Watched the latest epsiode.. i'd have loved to love this show, because i'ts so pretty and cinematic.. but there is not that much of substance after that sadly.

Galadriel is still just not Galadriesl
elves are totally ruine and don't even look elven - why does Celembrimbor look like an old man?

it lacks the air of quality that the original movies had

It's written by people who don't really understand Tolkein's work, either that or don't care about it since they've obviously changed everything - so now the Elves are fading, and they need dwarven jewels to restore their immortality - ? seems the sort of tale I'd expect from Warcraft, not from Tolkien's world.

[Askyl]

Watched the latest epsiode.. i'd have loved to love this show, because i'ts so pretty and cinematic.. but there is not that much of substance after that sadly.

Galadriel is still just not Galadriesl
elves are totally ruine and don't even look elven - why does Celembrimbor look like an old man?

it lacks the air of quality that the original movies had

It's written by people who don't really understand Tolkein's work, either that or don't care about it since they've obviously changed everything - so now the Elves are fading, and they need dwarven jewels to restore their immortality - ? seems the sort of tale I'd expect from Warcraft, not from Tolkien's world.

The series does have elves looking most like elves should though, if its not what you expected because of how media portrays them.. not their fault.

Galadriel is the most cannon of all the characters if you compare to the lore.

[Syegfryed]

The series does have elves looking most like elves should though, if its not what you expected because of how media portrays them.. not their fault.

Galadriel is the most cannon of all the characters if you compare to the lore.

I didn't saw a single elf that look like an elf in this series, its not about "how media portrays then" its how Tolkien portrays then, because those media copy tolkien description in the first place

The elves look like humans and some of then are either too ugly or too old to actually be tolkien elves, Celebrimbor look like this guy:


and he is supposed to be younger than Galadriel

Galadriel somehow could look elvish, if she was less insufferable, but i don't think the actress - while very pretty - fit to be Galadriel.

[s_bushido]

LOL I guess we better start the Charles Dickens Universe franchise right now. Wow. Pure ignorance. You realise LOTR had huge cultural influence for decades before it became a movie, right? Oof, I also better tell the hundreds of students who discovered the novel through my teaching that I was gatekeeping this whole time...

There have been plenty of movies and shows based on Dickens's work. What was the last one you cared to see? What was the last one you posted about on a forum?

People care about (or at least pretend to for the sake of culture war outrage bait) LotR stuff precisely because so much money has been pumped into the movie franchise, and continues to be pumped into projects like this. You may not like that, but your feelings don't dictate reality. Sorry.

And again, the movies and shows have nothing to do with the cultural impact the works they're based on may or may not have had before they came out.

[hulkgor]

I don't think that's true. They featured shots of the full moon pretty prominently. Meteor man was staring at it. Elrond looks up at it after Gil-Galad tells him about the fading/corruption. And it was hidden in the clouds when Bronwyn and Arondir look up at the tower. The only location where it seemed to be conspicuously absent was Numenor (when the shot pans down from the stars onto the soldiers partying).

That whole montage, and alternating scenes between half the southern people submiting to the orcs, and Halbrand talking about what he had done to survive made it seem like he 'was' present at it, giving the impression that was the 'past'.

But i might just have gotten the wrong impression

[Mace]

The series does have elves looking most like elves should though, if its not what you expected because of how media portrays them.. not their fault.

Galadriel is the most cannon of all the characters if you compare to the lore.

It's the stuff they make up that doesn't match the spirit and feel that Tolkien wrote for the elves, and by extension Galadriel

The envisioning of Galadriel in the movies,just feels a lot better - than a very humanised, rage teen girl-man Galadriel this show presents.

Because this show and it's showrunners have injected both their politics and ideology into the show, -you just need to watch the two, and see the total disconnected between RoP and LoTR and the gap in quality

nuff said - despite all the pretty pictures.



If you prefer vulnerable elves that operate more like humans and behave like idiots, with a lore about them that contradicts the ethos of the race and the world - then go ahead an d love it.. it's not Tolkien's work clearly, and it isn't faithful to it for sure.


It's an adaptation of the world that is more a copting, still it could have been nice and enjoyable, which it is to a fair extent, but I wouldn't feel it is anywhere near the grade of quality as Tolkien it feel almost insulting to call itself that. i am saying this despite watching it and being fairly entertained..

i'm not crazy about it, and I definitely don't think it's the quality of either book or film, the films made me love the product and the books/world even more, this series, is just mindless entertainment, you watch it, it's got bright and sparkly lights that are pretty to watch, but no where near the quality of the works it claims to based on.

Remember Tolkien had no pretty graphics, art or music at all, the pull, attraction and quality of the work is all in the writing, the story, the plot, the setting he paints and the world he builds - this is what they've tossed aside, failed to adhere to or stick to, and decided to inject their world views and ideology into, and ti's no where nere as good as the original.

They could have still been a bit lame and stuck to the original, i would have liked it more, but they'd have needed a better story and story tellers and closer adherence and understanding of Tolkien's work. Willing to stick to that rather than re-interpret it through the lens of their own ideology.

[InfiniteCharger]

Treating Tolkien as a 'franchise' and not an important part of the cultural heritage of the West and a work of art is the issue.

Not respecting the lore as being a defining hallmark of what makes Tolkien distinct is the issue. It is like any other IP that is watered down, altered and distorted because some studio gave money to people who don't know or don't care about the lore and just want to put their own spin on something regardless of what it is. And it is that history of studios trying to make franchises out of existing IPs that are not well executed, resulting in terrible reviews and opinions from fans of the IP is the issue.

Westerns are westerns because they have certain elements that define the genre and cannot exist without them.
Karate Movies are karate movies for the same reason, along with other genres of fiction.

Historically these kinds of genres were easily translated into movies because they understood what made these genres work.

But for some reason today's Hollywood doesn't care enough to do the least bit of research on any IP to understand what makes it work so they can hew close to it even if they take some liberties. And that is the biggest problem.

For some reason Japanese anime and manga have been better able to capture the essence of MMOs and High Fantasy far better than anything in the West even though the whole concept came from the west. So it is definitely more of a respect of the lore and understanding of the genre more than anything else. Not to mention many western studios are so concerned about other 'messages' that they feel are more important than traditional story telling and character development.

[rhorle]

LOL I guess we better start the Charles Dickens Universe franchise right now.

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls006348409/

You mean what has already happened? Adaptations bring awareness. Good or bad. Video games bring awareness good or bad. It helps to introduce people to the work even if they go no further then the derivative. So do go further. If the goal is to introduce a person to influential work then you don't gate keep them along their journey to that work. If a student says they really enjoyed Shadows of Mordor you don't say they aren't a true fan because it isn't real Tolkien, right? It is about the approach you take.

- - - Updated - - -

Not respecting the lore as being a defining hallmark of what makes Tolkien distinct is the issue.

Which isn't relevant to this discussion since Rings of Power does respect the defining hallmarks of Tolkien. It just doesn't do a 1:1 copy which isn't required for derivatives. Remember we got Romeo and Juliet with guns which was acclaimed for it being influential at the time to relate it to modern times. The movie wasn't great over all but it still had an impact and still honored Shakespeare. What about West Side story? Changed stuff but won multiple awards.

According to your argument it wouldn't be Shakespeare because it changed so much, right? Or is it that "What makes something" a nebulous every shifting concept that is used just to gate keep and hate?

[bledgor]

Sad to think within the same time frame we would be through Fellowship and well into Two Towers both extended editions. Add in the bad dialogue (wtf was that Durin line about meat and wanting it raw????), the awful fighting choreography (like they didn't even swing at Galadriel 90% of the time, and the one guy literally just handed his sword over to her), and continuously disappointing characters means this episode again left me feeling let down, even with expecting less at this point.

Now we have Elves fading because of a tree dying??? No, elves are always fading in middle earth as they are away from the undying lands, and the rings allow them to extend their stay, but fading is always occurring. Also every time I see Celebrimbor I wince, this old dude that is younger than Galadriel who in Tolkien cannon is dwarf friend (and also you know, helped build the west gate of Khazad-dum) is supposed to be the guy who crafts the rings? So much for the last linage of the house of Feanor.

Honestly at this point I will finish the season just to get some schadenfreude from the train wreck this show has become. I bet we don't any important events this season, no fall of numenor, no Balrog in Khazad-dum (which we shouldn't, as this happens thousands of years into the 3rd age), not even the rings being made.

[Veggie50]

That whole montage, and alternating scenes between half the southern people submiting to the orcs, and Halbrand talking about what he had done to survive made it seem like he 'was' present at it, giving the impression that was the 'past'.

But i might just have gotten the wrong impression

I got the same feeling… perhaps they’re pulling a witcher where not all the stories run in the same time line…

[Mace]

You see there is a difference between changing lore and expanding lore.. even though some sticklers insist the latter is the former.. for me, expansion is fine.. as long as you keep the core and dont' change the spirit.

THe hobbit expanded a lot of lore in those 3 movies, those expansions were fine, some even nice, they certainly fit within the lore, and the disappointment about the Hobbit was not as much what it expanded as opposed to how some elements were presented, still it had the air of the original movies, just not quite the finesse.. almost like they were a lot more careless on this one or not as hungry or desperate for it to be a master piece.

still, it was miles better than Rings of Power who actually changes the lore, and not in a nice way.. sure it's not terrible, but it ruins the fantasy and the feel of Lord of the rings. The elves are cheapened, Galadriael comes off very unlikeable, no stately grace you would expect of an immortal and one that clearly is leadership material.

She is written more like an angry lad, or a lesbian's idea of what a tough chick should be, which would be finde if that was the original character, or the elves were like that, but it's not the original character. And while there are lots of holes to fills that ou can make up all kinds of stuff, there are certain things you shouldn't do because they change too much.

Like the HIGH elves, the HIGH elves losing their light randomly, and then needing and willing to swindle or deceive dwarves to get it - that's not high elf like, and it's lore-ruinous route to take even though by itself it's not a bad story, even an interesting one, but it doesn't ffit Tolkien elves, it more fits Warcraft elves or Warhammer elves where their creators use adjectives to describe a race they don't really understand because they don't understand of haven't thought well enough w hat Wise, immortal and fair actually means.

I also do not expect an immortal race to look lik an old man nor the grace of the Eldar in Valinor, witht he Valar, have children behave so despicable -it feels more like humans not elves, and obvious attempt to create some sort of complex in Galadraiel to explain why she turns out into this very un-Tolkien Galadriel, - while the visioning of Galadriel will be cool on it's own as a different character and a different race - it is not cool as Galadriel from the novels, especially after seeing such a portrayal in the movies.

They were way off, the way they wrote her, they should have made her a Numenroean , not an elf, and elves should have been secondary characters like they are in LotR and the Hobbits

Sad to think within the same time frame we would be through Fellowship and well into Two Towers both extended editions. Add in the bad dialogue (wtf was that Durin line about meat and wanting it raw????), the awful fighting choreography (like they didn't even swing at Galadriel 90% of the time, and the one guy literally just handed his sword over to her), and continuously disappointing characters means this episode again left me feeling let down, even with expecting less at this point.

Now we have Elves fading because of a tree dying??? No, elves are always fading in middle earth as they are away from the undying lands, and the rings allow them to extend their stay, but fading is always occurring. Also every time I see Celebrimbor I wince, this old dude that is younger than Galadriel who in Tolkien cannon is dwarf friend (and also you know, helped build the west gate of Khazad-dum) is supposed to be the guy who crafts the rings? So much for the last linage of the house of Feanor.

Honestly at this point I will finish the season just to get some schadenfreude from the train wreck this show has become. I bet we don't any important events this season, no fall of numenor, no Balrog in Khazad-dum (which we shouldn't, as this happens thousands of years into the 3rd age), not even the rings being made.

I know right.. they changed the lore, without understanding who they were changing (or understanding, and just not caring, but pressing on to do what they want - why? because they either have a message to preach or they think they're just better) - that's not how the elves of Tolkien would have been like or reacted - if you are going to make up new stuff for in between the lines of his work, the least you should be is consistent to that work so it believably passes off as Tolkien's Lord of the rings world.

I feel this is an alternate fantasy, for lord of the Rings, it's bad fan fic and subversive - ideology and views injected into someone else's work, makes it not based on the person's work but an alternative version of their world basically riding on it's coat tails to put your own stuff out.


In and of it self, it's not a bad anything, but it's more on the level of a warcraft or warhammer - not on the level of Lord of the Rings, which it boldly claims to be.

The elves just don't feel like elves, they don't come across as wise, regal, immortal, gallant nor gorgeous -t hey come off as merely pretty humans , lacking any more insight than their lessers - this is because the writers themselves can only write to their own limitations.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Has anything started happening in the show? I got though the first 2 episodes and decided to stop until I can just bender it. Nothing was happening. Figured it was doing the normal streaming show format of introduce a show based off its name and do nothing until the next of the season.

[Triceron]

That whole montage, and alternating scenes between half the southern people submiting to the orcs, and Halbrand talking about what he had done to survive made it seem like he 'was' present at it, giving the impression that was the 'past'.

But i might just have gotten the wrong impression

The cut that made it seem like it was supposed to be a flashback. I was confused at first until I saw the Tavern dude and realized they were focusing on the Southlanders who had left the watchtower.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly at this point I will finish the season just to get some schadenfreude from the train wreck this show has become. I bet we don't any important events this season, no fall of numenor, no Balrog in Khazad-dum (which we shouldn't, as this happens thousands of years into the 3rd age), not even the rings being made.

I think the Balrog will just appear as a season ending cliffhanger, exactly as it appears in the trailer.

- - - Updated - - -

According to your argument it wouldn't be Shakespeare because it changed so much, right? Or is it that "What makes something" a nebulous every shifting concept that is used just to gate keep and hate?

But you admitted yourself that these are adaptations of Shakespeares work. West Side Story in particular isn't Shakespeare at all. At most you can say it's based on Shakespeare's works, but it wouldn't be Shakespeare.

[InfiniteCharger]

Which isn't relevant to this discussion since Rings of Power does respect the defining hallmarks of Tolkien. It just doesn't do a 1:1 copy which isn't required for derivatives. Remember we got Romeo and Juliet with guns which was acclaimed for it being influential at the time to relate it to modern times. The movie wasn't great over all but it still had an impact and still honored Shakespeare. What about West Side story? Changed stuff but won multiple awards.

According to your argument it wouldn't be Shakespeare because it changed so much, right? Or is it that "What makes something" a nebulous every shifting concept that is used just to gate keep and hate?

And just how does it respect Tolkien? Just using the name Tolkien and having characters and events that were written by Tolkien doesn't mean you are respecting Tolkien. That is absurdly hilarious.

One aspect of "respecting Tolkien" is attention to detail and in his writing this is very evident, just in how he described scenery and how they changed as characters moved from place to place, giving you a sense of space and passage of time.

How is that sense of space and passage of time even being reflected in this series? People just show up where ever they are supposed to be and thats it.

[rhorle]

But you admitted yourself that these are adaptations of Shakespeares work. West Side Story in particular isn't Shakespeare at all. At most you can say it's based on Shakespeare's works, but it wouldn't be Shakespeare.

Right. They are all adaptations. That is what we are talking about. Calling adaptations "not true originals" in order to gate keep what is an original. It is an argument that exists just to dismiss anything for a nebulous reason. It is something that is applied based on if a person likes a derivative or not.

- - - Updated - - -

One aspect of "respecting Tolkien" is attention to detail and in his writing this is very evident, just in how he described scenery and how they changed as characters moved from place to place, giving you a sense of space and passage of time.

There is an attention to detail displayed on the show. They use references to things Tolkien wrote to embellish upon. Again just because it isn't a 1:1 copy doesn't mean they are not respecting his work. This just shows how much "respect" is used as a nebulous concept to dismiss anything.

[hulkgor]

The cut that made it seem like it was supposed to be a flashback. I was confused at first until I saw the Tavern dude and realized they were focusing on the Southlanders who had left the watchtower..

Yes, precisely. My reasoning is that Halbrand was one of those villagers, even as far as being the young dude that the innkeeper (Waldreg) was told to kill, and i think he turns it around and ends up killing the innkeeper himself, leading to the "You can't imagine the things i've had to do to survive" and "i'm never going back there" (or something along those lines).

So, we're gonna get Witchered with the timeline reveals at the final episodes.

[Triceron]

Right. They are all adaptations. That is what we are talking about. Calling adaptations "not true originals" in order to gate keep what is an original. It is an argument that exists just to dismiss anything for a nebulous reason. It is something that is applied based on if a person likes a derivative or not.

Er, but that is the exact point.

It's not gatekeeping, it's literally pointing out that the adaptation is not the original material.

Doesn't really matter if someone likes it or not. Peter Jackson's film trilogy is liked by all, but isn't canonical to the books in any way.

[rhorle]

It's not gatekeeping, it's literally pointing out that the adaptation is not the original material. Doesn't really matter if someone likes it or not. Peter Jackson's film trilogy is liked by all, but isn't canonical to the books in any way.

Of course it isn't by the original author. It is gatekeeping because it is brought up just to give a blanket excuse for why something is bad. It does matter if a person likes it or not because they usually only give a blanket dismissal when they don't like something. If they do like something then it is "respecting the work" or similar reason.

[qwerty123456]

Why would you even try to force yourself to like something? If you're not enjoying it...don't watch it.

Some people like to finish things? Some also like to hope things will get better?

I fully watched Fena: Pirate Princess even though it started out ok and just started to snowball into a complete trainwreck by the end because I wanted to finish it.

[Triceron]

Of course it isn't by the original author. It is gatekeeping because it is brought up just to give a blanket excuse for why something is bad. It does matter if a person likes it or not because they usually only give a blanket dismissal when they don't like something. If they do like something then it is "respecting the work" or similar reason.

Er... All you're telling me is you don't like certain people's opinion and are making excuses to dismiss them.