1. #5441
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It is a symptom of a greater problem as I said. The fact that the watchtower itself is utterly pointless because it's not implied to be capable of subduing any evil even if it were to be observed.
    No, it's consistent with the whole premise (and builds the story of evil being able to resurface, because after a long period of peace we grow complacent - which is absolutely, 100% true). Rather, it would be difficult to believe that a random bunch of elves in the middle of nowhere is vigilant to some unknow threat, while their own king is calling off guards around the world because he believes they serve no purpose anymore. The example comes from the top.

    It doesn't undermine Arondir at all. There are always individuals who think differently - and Arondir is one of them - but most just follows suit. It's absolutely natural and believable. That's what makes Arondir special, contraty to most other "people" or "elves". That's what makes him a protagonist and not just another elf. Nothing's contrived here, it all makes sence in the story.

    As for Adar - there's no reason to speculate. We will find out.

  2. #5442
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But why is that a world building problem? Why is it that you think a world can only be built when the bad guys don't exploit a weakness of the good guys? Why do you have to know the plan of Adar in order for it to be good world building? You are really reaching for excuses including things that aren't supported by the source material. As orcs are capable of doing things not incompetent by nature. Wait, I forgot. We can't bring the source material into a discussion about the show even though the show didn't reference orcs as only being incompetent. In fact it shows they are very competent. So you can bring in outside influences but no one else can. Strange.
    Put yourself in Adar's shoes and try to make sense of his actions.

    If you were looking for the dark blade, would you take risks that may allow the Elves to signal for help, or release them to 'inform the humans' when you're already in a position of having near-full control of the Southlands?

    His actions are contrary to someone who was already so capable to be working in secrecy under the noses of the Elves for what could be weeks or months by now, considering how extensive the tunnels had been once they were found.


    The entire thing would be a footnote if a main character was not there. The arc does show how complacent the elves were with their job which again shows you are ignoring the world building of the show for the sake of your argument. Arondir hears a potential threat but doesn't report it. Elves say that they have no purpose there anymore. They are happy to be withdrawn finally. All things that show the elves were not fanatically approaching their job at the time.
    Which is my point. I even stated blatantly that this arc so far is quite pointless, and be satisfied just the same if it were a footnote in another subplot that merely states 'A watchtower was overtaken by Orcs in the Southlands!'.

    The entire setting we have right now is contrived and set up for one purpose- introducing Arondir's character and purpose in the story. That's all. If not for this one character, the entire plot would merely be a footnote.

    I'd go as far as saying you could probably edit out all of the Arondir plot in S1, jump straight into S2 with 'A watchtower was overtaken by Orcs in the Southlands!' and have his character be introduced that way and nothing would be remiss. The current Arondir plot isn't really being shown as all that important to the overall narrative so far; we don't really need this arc to show that troubles are rising in the Southlands. The entire Galadriel arc already establishes this in the greater narrative through the Mark reveal. And I would prefer this over the current arc, since it doesn't illustrate this event being a result of Elven complacency; it's not something I feel is important to the overall narrative or world building since the idea that Evil is growing in the shadows is already well established in Galadriel's arc. The complacency can be attributed to Gil Galad's decision to pull back his troops. The watchtower could have been implied to be taken over by Orcs when the Elves already left.


    This being said, I'm still going to reserve a full judgement of the situation till the full season comes out. I'm merely pointing out how the current Arondir arc feels contrived and lacking any real purpose other than to set it up to fail. It's literally something that could be accomplished through being a footnote, and I personally don't regard this character being so important to the overall narrative to fully understand why the show is deciding to make this one of the major POV arcs in the first place. Considering I've been adamantly critical about the pacing of this show and how the plot is slow to progress, I'd say editing out this entire arc and putting in a narrative that moves the plot forward would have been a better use of time. In current retrospect, this arc feels like 'Filler'.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-19 at 08:27 PM.

  3. #5443
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If you were looking for the dark blade, would you take risks that may allow the Elves to signal for help, or release them to 'inform the humans' when you're already in a position of having near-full control of the Southlands?
    They are found out do you take a chance to minimize the risk from that? Or do you ignore a company of elves that might come investigate their friends absence and find that a town is evacuating? Do you take the risk they will act with secrecy in their flight to inform others? Or do you neutralize that risk? The problem with your scenario is you've already come to a conclusion and are only seeing the viewpoint of that conclusion.

    His actions are not counter to anything shown on the show as it those actions worked out, right? Again you keep arguing as if the elves are required to never fail.

    The entire setting we have right now is contrived and set up for one purpose- introducing Arondir's character and purpose in the story. That's all. If not for this one character, the entire plot would merely be a footnote.
    So you complain that world building is not taking place but then complain when world building takes place just to build the world? You are never satisfied and it is strange how often you contradict your own arguments. Of course the absence of a main character would relinquish a story to a foot note. That is the difference between a main and a non-main character. lol.
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  4. #5444
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    As for Adar - there's no reason to speculate. We will find out.
    There's always reason to speculate when we're talking about a week-to-week release show that banks on having cliffhangers and mystery reveals.

    Otherwise, what would there be to talk about?

  5. #5445
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Otherwise, what would there be to talk about?
    Everything we already saw...?

  6. #5446
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They are found out do you take a chance to minimize the risk from that? Or do you ignore a company of elves that might come investigate their friends absence and find that a town is evacuating? Do you take the risk they will act with secrecy in their flight to inform others? Or do you neutralize that risk? The problem with your scenario is you've already come to a conclusion and are only seeing the viewpoint of that conclusion.
    They are found out because they literally burned an entire village to the ground.

    That is their own doing. So no, I don't think your reasoning covers for the fact that they instigated their 'friend finding out' something blatantly obvious that they did, that should even be seeable from the distance of the Watchtower. I mean how can the Watchtower not know an entire village was burned down? And their course of action was to go investigate while not reporting this to higher-ups first? The common sense thing to do is report before investigate. If they're complacent, it's one thing. If they're acting on suspicions, then they shouldn't continue implying them to be complacent, it means they are being reactive. And if they're being reactive while not following protocol, that is incompetence.

    See the difference?

    So you complain that world building is not taking place but then complain when world building takes place just to build the world? You are never satisfied and it is strange how often you contradict your own arguments. Of course the absence of a main character would relinquish a story to a foot note. That is the difference between a main and a non-main character. lol.
    World building means establishing a setting that makes a narrative feel authentic.

    https://www.masterclass.com/articles...lievable-world

    The purpose of worldbuilding for writers is to give their story structure and somewhere real to live


    There is nothing authentic about a contrived setting for a narrative that lacks purpose in the grand scheme of things.

    I don't think you're fully understanding the meaning behind these literary devices, and you're just trying to argue semantics without fully acknowledging what they actually mean to a story.

    I mean you might as well start attacking me for being a Galadriel hater and being racist or whatever you think this is all about. Because clearly you're just arguing what you want to argue rather than anything I'm actually saying here.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-19 at 08:41 PM.

  7. #5447
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm talking about the Elves and why they set up a watchtower in the first place when they are shown to have zero means of actually enforcing the place against something bad happening.

    What is the purpose of the watchtowers if they aren't being shown actually watching anything or signalling for reinforcements? You can't tell what's going to happen other than starvation or an attack because the show is literally not showing us anything useful out of the Elves at the Watchtower.
    The point these people keep missing is this tower is completely made up by Amazon. The whole point in the story of how the rings were made is that Galadriel founded Eregion as an Elven REALM to defend against Sauron's threat. And it is in Eregion that Celebrimbor set up his school of Elven smithing and worked with the Dwarves, which in turn attracted Sauron to show up in the guise of Annatar. That is the entire flow of the story in the books. This out in the middle of nowhere tower with random southlanders is just another example of Amazon's made up story being far worse than what Tolkien actually wrote. And it appears that at every point they are deliberately being as different from the lore as possible bordering on them trying to have their own "version" of Tolkien that they can own which has its own continuity from anything else in film, animation, games or anything else. If that is true, then they should have made sure that this 'alternate universe' was more compelling and interesting than what is in the Lore so that even those 'Tolkien Purists' could appreciated this on its own merits separate from how faithful they are to Tolkien. At this point the only thing they are doing is making a mess because the story is just a jumble of coincidences and contrivances instead of a naturally flowing narrative that makes sense and is easy to follow whether you are a Tolkien expert or not. It isn't that difficult to make such a story as you can see these kinds of stories in games all around you everywhere. An elven Tower by itself is not how Elves work in most high fantasy works, they typically have an outpost consisting of many Elves which could have towers in trees and so forth to defend an area.... In fact, something like what we see in WOW all over the place. So how come is it that games, books, anime, comic books and all other sorts of media are more able to fit in with the lore that Tolkien wrote than this series? It is trying so hard to be different that it stands out like sore thumb and the question is why?

  8. #5448
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    They are found out because they literally burned an entire village to the ground.
    Nope. They were found out because a villager, by chance, had a cow graze from "bad grass" and brought it to the local healer. Arondir then went to investigate after ignoring the same sign earlier. As he heard about it from the tavern. That is the point "they got found out" as it is the what caused that village to be investigated in the first place. They were slowly expanding their reach.

    Just because an outpost is a "watch tower" doesn't mean it can automatically see an entire area. Of course it is incompetence. I'm not sure why you still think that is some kind of argument. People in stories can be incompetent. It isn't a bad story just because people are incompetent. The entire point is that they were incompetent because of their belief that there was no longer a threat.

    There is nothing authentic about a contrived setting for a narrative that lacks purpose in the grand scheme of things.
    The forces of evil re-appearing, potentially regaining the allegiance of ancient followers, and regaining an ancient powerful weapon is not something that lacks purpose in the grand scheme of things. It is building the world. Something you claim to want out of the show before things become important yet complain when it is done before it has a real purpose. Strange, right? Which is again why you bring galadrial and racism into this to deflect from your poor argument. I'm surprised you didn't mention the word 'hit' as well. I'm not arguing what I want to argue if I'm directly countering your points. Lol.
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  9. #5449
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I don't think it's that important how far the reinforcements are and how much time would it take for them to to come to aid (at least at that point in time). The tower would be night impossible to conquer by people who are not trained in warfare and do not posses some serious siege equipment - so I think we can safely assume the humans of the Southlands were never seen as an immediate threat, uprising or not.

    As for the tower's purpose - it seems that there was none, and wasn't it the reason why the elves were finally called back? It was a relic of old times, when the threat was real and the elves were afraid of Sauron's return. But obviously it wasn't happening, and the tower & the elves were there... because they were always there. This isn't THAT surprising, really; the tower had a purpose long time ago, that purpose was slowly diminishing. There always has to come a time when you deem something useless. The elves did that, calling the people back. We don't know the whole story & the past (and the show is slow enough without additional explanations of the history). One can assume that in the past, immediatelly after the war and Sauron's disappearance, the tower was only a single element of a bigger system, and with time, it was the only thing left. And the elves finally decide even that last thing is worthless.
    Helms Deep and Minas Tirith were relics of old bygone times and worked fine didn't it? That idea of it being old doesn't contradict the point that the tower itself as shown is useless, no matter how old it is. If the tower isn't able to serve its purpose as designed, then it is worthless. The point being that a "watch" tower implies being on a high up vantage point from which you can see extremely long distances. Let's not forget that photo of the tower they put out even before the show premiered:


    https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/ent...ers-new-images
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-19 at 09:09 PM.

  10. #5450
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Nope. They were found out because a villager, by chance, had a cow graze from "bad grass" and brought it to the local healer. Arondir then went to investigate after ignoring the same sign earlier. As he heard about it from the tavern. That is the point "they got found out" as it is the what caused that village to be investigated in the first place. They were slowly expanding their reach.

    Just because an outpost is a "watch tower" doesn't mean it can automatically see an entire area. Of course it is incompetence. I'm not sure why you still think that is some kind of argument. People in stories can be incompetent. It isn't a bad story just because people are incompetent. The entire point is that they were incompetent because of their belief that there was no longer a threat.



    The forces of evil re-appearing, potentially regaining the allegiance of ancient followers, and regaining an ancient powerful weapon is not something that lacks purpose in the grand scheme of things. It is building the world. Something you claim to want out of the show before things become important yet complain when it is done before it has a real purpose. Strange, right? Which is again why you bring galadrial and racism into this to deflect from your poor argument. I'm surprised you didn't mention the word 'hit' as well. I'm not arguing what I want to argue if I'm directly countering your points. Lol.
    I wouldn’t say incompetent… I’d say complacent.

  11. #5451
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    The point these people keep missing is this tower is completely made up by Amazon.
    How is that something that can be missed when Amazon is writing the story? However Amazon is taking hints from Tolkien's work as he has garrisons not renewed because it is thought the threat they were looking for no longer existed. https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Calenardhon

    It is also strange for you to argue that elves would never have small outposts and instead always built large cities. It doesn't matter if other high fantasy elves did something because those are not tolkiens work. If you want to bring other fantasy works into this then anything the Amazon show is doing isn't a problem because it is nothing revolutionary to the fantasy genre, right?
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  12. #5452
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    My point is that the show hasn't actually given purpose to the Watchtower because we aren't shown or told what the Elves are even capable of even IF they detected Humans going bad in the Southlands.

    The purpose of the watchtower is to justify the villagers going there later. Thats it

    the show have an awful amount of bullshit that happen to justify some other nonsense crap to happening, its not organic or logic.

    Like how the villagers left where they were without any supply/food, why they would do such massive retarded move if it was not for the later events of the boy going back?

  13. #5453
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    I wouldn’t say incompetent… I’d say complacent.
    It is one and the same if that complacency leads to them not actively doing their job. Remember Arondir heard a rumor that wasn't ultimately reported or acted on. It wasn't until he saw physical proof (the cow) that he took it seriously. He was the only one shown to still care about their duty and he still initially ignored it.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-19 at 09:04 PM.
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  14. #5454
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    The purpose of the watchtower is to justify the villagers going there later. Thats it

    the show have an awful amount of bullshit that happen to justify some other nonsense crap to happening, its not organic or logic.

    Like how the villagers left where they were without any supply/food, why they would do such massive retarded move if it was not for the later events of the boy going back?
    You mean it isn't logical when running away from the threat of enemies (aka orcs) to take 0 food/animals? That is crazy talk!!!!!!!

    /s

    Just hearkens back to one of the worst problems of this show that is present in all the story lines, the lack of timescale/time passing.

    Elrond moving from Eregion to Khazad-dum? Fast travel! Not even talking to Durin IV about making the tower? No worries next episode it is several months of construction in!

    Galadriel going from the farthest reaches of the north and back? Then out to sea, then in swim mode/raft mode/rescused by ship? Who fucking knows! Might be days might be months, shit it could be years, spin the wheel!

    Harfoots? a few days, maybe a week? who knows!

    Arondir? A few days? Who knows!
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-09-19 at 09:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  15. #5455
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Just because an outpost is a "watch tower" doesn't mean it can automatically see an entire area.
    Then for the purpose of the narrative, it lacks verisimilitude.

    It is a contrived plot line that sets up the characters to fail and outline their incompetence/complacency. And that is a clear criticism of this entire plotline lacking substance and being filler for the mere introduction of Arondir.

    Again, it's not a matter of being 'surprising' or 'disappointed' or whatever you think this is about. At this point my only criticism is that it's so far being little more than filler. As we are discussing, what would be different if this were literally a mere footnote? Would things be all that different?

    The forces of evil re-appearing, potentially regaining the allegiance of ancient followers, and regaining an ancient powerful weapon is not something that lacks purpose in the grand scheme of things. It is building the world.
    And it could be done without elaborating a footnote into an entire POV arc IMO.

    Like, we don't have an arc devoted to the whereabouts of the Men in other parts of the world. We don't need to know to understand that there will be more than just the Numenoreans and Southlanders and Elves going to war.

    If they want to show scenes of Orcs causing chaos in the Southlands, then they totally can do so, without having to introduce an entire subplot of Elves and a watchtower.

    Strange, right? Which is again why you bring galadrial and racism into this to deflect from your poor argument.
    I'm bringing up your tendency to slather accusations on to arguments you don't seem agreeable. I haven't deflected anything, I've addressed every point of your argument and added this caveat on top that you're literally trying to argue for the sake of arguing.

    You can feel free to disagree with any of my points here, but you aren't even doing that. You're excusing the bad writing while also pointing out the same things I am; that if not for the main character this arc would be a mere footnote and doesn't really amount to much. You then say "So what", as to imply it's not a problem, and so you've finally come to realize the point that my criticism isn't outing any actual problem, merely pointing out that this is a poorly-chosen plot to elaborate into a full PoV arc. It is a symptom of a greater problem - that of pacing.

    Otherwise, you've been attacking me for 'not criticizing Tolkien's work' or some other inane argument for the sake of arguing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    The purpose of the watchtower is to justify the villagers going there later. Thats it

    the show have an awful amount of bullshit that happen to justify some other nonsense crap to happening, its not organic or logic.

    Like how the villagers left where they were without any supply/food, why they would do such massive retarded move if it was not for the later events of the boy going back?
    It gets even worse than that though. Like, what is the narrative importance of having Villagers even go there? There isn't one. We're already shown that some Southlanders took to the seas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    So how come is it that games, books, anime, comic books and all other sorts of media are more able to fit in with the lore that Tolkien wrote than this series? It is trying so hard to be different that it stands out like sore thumb and the question is why?
    This is where I think the video linked a few pages ago really hits the mark. It's a bunch of writers checking off boxes, and getting too tunnel-visioned in maneuvering the plot in twists and turns rather than seeing the path they're leading through. It's seeing the forest and not seeing the trees. It's the lack of attention to detail and properly developing character motivations and narrative. Nothing feels authentic, and it all feels like it's guided by the 'hand of god'.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-19 at 09:42 PM.

  16. #5456
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How is that something that can be missed when Amazon is writing the story? However Amazon is taking hints from Tolkien's work as he has garrisons not renewed because it is thought the threat they were looking for no longer existed. https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Calenardhon

    It is also strange for you to argue that elves would never have small outposts and instead always built large cities. It doesn't matter if other high fantasy elves did something because those are not tolkiens work. If you want to bring other fantasy works into this then anything the Amazon show is doing isn't a problem because it is nothing revolutionary to the fantasy genre, right?
    I was talking about people like you not Amazon obviously. If Amazon's purpose was to make something that could stand on its own, then they should have put effort into making it so. What we have now does not stand on its own or even in comparison to anything else.

    If the purpose of that tower is to serve as an observation point to detect enemies and prevent them from surprising you, then it failed. And since this tower was created as almost an alternative to Eregion being the base of Elven operations against Sauron in the early to mid second age, then it fails as a substitute and replacement for that existing narrative. Eregion and this Tower are relatively close to each other in this series and by extension should be part of the defensive structure in the region. But it isn't because it isn't shown or mentioned that there is any defensive structure outside that tower connecting it to Eregion, Lindon, the Silvan realm or anything else. And I did not say that outposts are large cities, as opposed to an outpost meaning a small fort with housing, barracks and other amenities to support whatever activities the Elves are intended to take on. Therefore this tower exists only in this narrative as a substitute for Eregion which itself was created by Tolkien to serve as a center point for many important story arcs in this period of the second age, including being the Elves defensive position against any potential activities of Sauron and the location where Sauron appears in disguise to forge the Rings .
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-19 at 09:53 PM.

  17. #5457
    Banned rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Helms Deep and Minas Tirith were relics of old bygone times and worked fine didn't it? That idea of it being old doesn't contradict the point that the tower itself as shown is useless, no matter how old it is. If the tower isn't able to serve its purpose as designed, then it is worthless. The point being that a "watch" tower implies being on a high up vantage point from which you can see extremely long distances. Let's not forget that photo of the tower they put out even before the show premiered:


    https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/ent...ers-new-images
    on this point you're actually wrong, in the lore this type of 'watchtower' was usually a great citadel with a 'seeing stone' inside, all linked together to form a communication network that spanned great distances, it wasn't used as a term to literally describe what we would assume a 'watchtower' to be in regards to real world examples, for example 'the great watchtower of amon sul' was barely much above ground level with the main castle complex sat on a hill for defensive purposes, not for actual long distance viewing (although it was a happy by-product of such a placement), but obviously because these writers are amateurs there's no real distinction made as to whether it's a legitimate watchtower designed for long distance viewing of the immediate surroundings or whether it's a 'watchtower' to house one of the palantiri etc, so in your defense this lack of clarity leaves it open to interpretation.

  18. #5458
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    on this point you're actually wrong, in the lore this type of 'watchtower' was usually a great citadel with a 'seeing stone' inside, all linked together to form a communication network that spanned great distances, it wasn't used as a term to literally describe what we would assume a 'watchtower' to be in regards to real world examples, for example 'the great watchtower of amon sul' was barely much above ground level with the main castle complex sat on a hill for defensive purposes, not for actual long distance viewing (although it was a happy by-product of such a placement), but obviously because these writers are amateurs there's no real distinction made as to whether it's a legitimate watchtower designed for long distance viewing of the immediate surroundings or whether it's a 'watchtower' to house one of the palantiri etc, so in your defense this lack of clarity leaves it open to interpretation.
    I am going by what this show actually depicts which is a traditional watch tower and it serves to fail that purpose. Given that it is completely made up by Amazon for this series, it is shown as failing in that task also by Amazon's own writing. The actual lore surrounding the use of watchtowers and how they work in the Legendarium are a separate issue here.

  19. #5459
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    If Tolkien came out today, no one would care. He's notable because he basically got the fantasy genre ball rolling, not be cause anyone really gives a shit about his supposed creative/literary genius.
    You can't make that claim because without Tolkien the genres of today would look very damn different.

  20. #5460
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    I was talking about people like you not Amazon obviously.
    Right. How do you think something like that can be missed when Amazon is writing the story. It isn't written by Tolkien so of course things are being created for the show. Just as Jackson took liberties for his two trilogies.

    The tower is a defensible base of operations for the area. It can offer a vantage point but doesn't fail just because it doesn't see every last inch of land they oversea. That doesn't even happen in the real world and it wasn't until the advent of satellite imagery that it became a real capability. An alternative to Eregion? What are you smoking? A small elven outpost is not an alternative to Eregion. We actually have Eregion shown on screen. Lmao.

    Have you even watched the show or are you just argue from influencers and articles?
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