Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[InfiniteCharger]

Right. How do you think something like that can be missed when Amazon is writing the story. It isn't written by Tolkien so of course things are being created for the show. Just as Jackson took liberties for his two trilogies.

The tower is a defensible base of operations for the area.

The 'tower' is shown in posters and the series as an observation point to provide early warning of an attack. But OK, when did we see that happen in this series where the tower was used as a base of defense? We didn't. The elves got captured, meaning whatever it was designed to do, ultimately it failed. The fact that it happened off screen means we can only guess how it happened and whether or not the tower actually served that purpose or not as you describe it.

It can offer a vantage point but doesn't fail just because it doesn't see every last inch of land they oversea. That doesn't even happen in the real world and it wasn't until the advent of satellite imagery that it became a real capability. An alternative to Eregion? What are you smoking? A small elven outpost is not an alternative to Eregion. We actually have Eregion shown on screen. Lmao.

Have you even watched the show or are you just argue from influencers and articles?

It is an alternative to Eregion becasue the core of the narrative of the creation of the rings of power was centered on Eregion. That is where most of the key events took place and Eregion was created explicitly for the purpose of being a bulwark against Sauron. This is why he targeted it and used it against them. Therefore, if they have made up this new tower as a key part of the narrative for this part of the second age as a new bulwark against Sauron then it is an alternative to simply focusing on the story of Eregion as already told in the lore. But this series is more interested in keeping things mysterious than actually telling a story. So the tower didn't serve its purpose in the world as it should because the writers needed to keep the presence of the orcs a secret, while at the same time showing the audience that the orcs are very real and a threat. But in showing the audience that the orcs are real and a threat, they are also telling the world of middle earth as well, which is why they had to come up with these contrivances to keep their presence still somehow secret.

Also, keep in mind that Sauron was able to appear at Eregion because the Haradrim and other forces he was amassing in his armies were kept far to the South and out of view of Eregion, the Elves and the Numenoreans. It was a key reason why he was able to arrive at Eregion in disguise and not be suspected(except by Galadriel). Once he is revealed as Suaron, he musters his forces to attack and there is no more secrecy. So the secrecy in the original lore served a logical purpose and moved the story along. The secrecy here in this series really serves noting and doesn't really move anything along because their activities don't signal Sauron's return to the wider world. And it cannot because it would be hard to have Sauron show up in disguise while having his presence revealed and known to all in middle earth. They would be wary and on their defenses. But we will see how this series plays out.

[rhorle]

It is an alternative to Eregion becasue the core of the narrative of the creation of the rings of power was centered on Eregion. That is where most of the key events took place and Eregion was created explicitly for the purpose of being a bulwark against Sauron.

So the replacement for Ost-in-Edhil is a tower in Mordor even though the show has shown Ost-in-Edhil, in Eregion, and shown a tower being built there. A tower whose purpose is to forge the rings of power as stated by the show. Again you either have not watched the show or are blinded by your dislike into creating your own delusion.

[Kumorii]

The orcs reach the edge of the wood and Arondir & co stand there for a full half minute while the orcs snarl at them. It's not until just before they decide to turn and run that a couple of arrows conveniently miss them. Just another poorly done moment in the show.

The arrows that are shot also land where they stood...
Would be more powerful if they just kept shooting and the arrows landed quite a bit infront of them before they move to signal they are at least far enough away.

Then again, turning and stare at them is just for the sun shot anyway, so it wouldn't really save it.

[Al Gorefiend]

It's only a minor thing really. It happens in lots of shows/movies. Even in the original Fellowship film when they're escaping Moria the orc archers always miss. It's one of those BS things that you just sort have to roll your eyes at, but I wish the directors would actually have the good guys wounded to add a bit of realism to it.

It's a thing in movies that the bad guys always miss. Like that scene in the movie Taken when Liam Neeson dives behind a couch to avoid a hail of bullets from an automatic, even though he was standing right in the open when the goon begins firing.

[Triceron]

Why is it important for you to value them so much? They're background characters that play a minor role in the story right at the beginning. The show isn't going to spend time detailing the background of everyone who wanders on screen for more than 3 minutes.

The show hasn't done anything to establish an emotional connection for us to see what Elves are capable of (Outside of Galadriel). Their capabilities are being grandfathered from an expectation that people have watched LOTR and know how capable they are in warfare.

We see this reinforced again in Arondir's arc as well. My point is, the show is doing them dirty by not establishing them as being capable at all. Zero moments where they accomplish anything.

One simple scene, like PJ's opening Elf scene where the warriors swing their blades and chop down Orcs, would do wonders in establishing this. That's all I'm pointing out. The show lacks any connection to the Elves being powerful or important, and if someone were coming to this show having not seen LOTR O could see their idea of an Elf being quite different if taking the show's presentation at face value.

Everyone here can say 'you don't need it it's unimportant' but it actually is quite important because it'a a first impression, and they shouldn't be taking it for granted.

Just ANY example of accomplishment in the first episode would do, while I use the team as an example because.. they're already there and the setup of her having a team is already prime for showing off... Teamwork. Something they completely missed out on really.

Instead we have everything set up to fail, and I feel like that's been the underlying tone of this entire series so far. And it:s not enjoyable at all. I think that's why I only like the Elrond and Dwarf arc and don't find any interest in the other arcs. They're just mired by poor writing, lack of world building (doesn't feel authentic) and the overall tone is one of incompetence or complacency all around, with the main characters simply failing upwards.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, Theo would be dead and the black sword hilt in the hands of Adar.

Theo has plot armor. Even if Arondir weren't there, he'd survive, because they intentionally have him as a POV character. At most I'd say captured by Adar and the black sword taken, but he wouldn't be dead. I mean, considering the way the story goes, that could still happen even now.

[InfiniteCharger]

So the replacement for Ost-in-Edhil is a tower in Mordor even though the show has shown Ost-in-Edhil, in Eregion, and shown a tower being built there. A tower whose purpose is to forge the rings of power as stated by the show. Again you either have not watched the show or are blinded by your dislike into creating your own delusion.

What I said was that Eregion was the center of the story of this era in the second age as a town built by the Elves in order to strengthen their defenses against Sauron's return. And it is to that town that Sauron went in disguise to create the rings of power. It isn't about a tower in Eregion, it is about Eregion itself as a focal point of the ENTIRE story of this part of the second age and the conflict with Sauron through his deception. There was no "other" place outside of Eregion that was the focal point of this narrative in this part of the second age. They are trying to make this "tower" a new focal point in Amazon's story separate from Eregion because like I said before it is an alternative to Eregion itself as that focal point. I am talking about how the story was written meaning why the town Eregion exists in the first place as a core to this narrative of the rings of power in Tolkien's lore and comparing that to why this tower exists in Amazon's rings of power as some alternative narrative to Eregion by itself as a focal point.

[rhorle]

What I said was that Eregion was the center of the story of this era in the second age as a town built by the Elves in order to strengthen their defenses against Sauron's return.

Eregion isn't a city. It is the region. The city you are talking about is Ost-in-Edhil. You are the one that is claiming the tower in Mordor is a replacement for a tower in Ost-in-Edhil. It isn't. The show has put a focus on Ost-in-Edhil and the forging of the rings but is establishing other story lines in the process. The watch tower where the elves were watching humans of mordor is not a replacement for anything. We have the elves ask the dwarves to help build a tower. A tower in Eregion. Why would Amazon have dwarves build a tower to forge rings of power if they were using the tower in Mordor for that purpose

Sauron was building his forces prior to the rings being made so this is what the show is hinting at with the Mordor scenes. About 100 years after the rings were forged there was a war between Sauron and Elves. https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/War_of_...ves_and_Sauron. So even without Amazon compressing the time line he would still have an army around that time.

You don't know the Tolkien lore. You don't know the show lore. Just stop before you keep arguing things not even present.

[Dhrizzle]

Theo has plot armor. Even if Arondir weren't there, he'd survive, because they intentionally have him as a POV character. At most I'd say captured by Adar and the black sword taken, but he wouldn't be dead. I mean, considering the way the story goes, that could still happen even now.

This is amazing. You can remove a character and it won't change the story as long as you change the story to cover the changes his absence makes. You can remove Pippin from LotR if Merry looks in the Palantir and Denethor doesn't try to sacrfice Faramir. You can remove Sam if you remember Frodo has plot armour. I think I love this more than your obsession with the capabilities of background characters who leave the series entirely before the end of the first episode.

[Triceron]

This is amazing. You can remove a character and it won't change the story as long as you change the story to cover the changes his absence makes. You can remove Pippin from LotR if Merry looks in the Palantir and Denethor doesn't try to sacrfice Faramir. You can remove Sam if you remember Frodo has plot armour. I think I love this more than your obsession with the capabilities of background characters who leave the series entirely before the end of the first episode.

If you haven't been paying attention to the greater criticism I have of this entire series being paced poorly and the narrative moving slowly, then yeah, that is the whole point.

And yes, things can be cut and edited to make a better movie if it makes sense. Perhaps not Pippin and Merry being cut, but say let's cut Radagast and Tauriel cut from the Hobbit. The Hobbit could be paced better as a single 4-hour Hobbit movie instead of a 12-hour epic that's full of filler. And I will absolutely tout the Maple cut of the Hobbit that edits out most of the non-book material from the Hobbit trilogy into one 4-hour movie as a superior product over the full trilogy. It's paced better, the story flows better, and I prefer it over what PJ gave us in the theatres.

http://www.maple-films.com/downloads.html


Similar fan edits have been done for other TV series. There's a fan edit of Obi-wan that cut out a bunch of filler and re-edits scenes in different order to make the show flow better. I'm just hoping someone out there does the same for Book of Boba Fett and gets rid of the Vespa Gang altogether and maybe we can see a Boba Fett series that I would consider worth watching.


The idea that Rings of Power's story can only be told in the way that the show already presents itself is only a matter of perspective. Even if a fan edit would be an 'adaptation of an adaptation', the general story can be retained, if not improved upon, with decent editing. I mean even internally, a film goes through so many different iterations and variations that there's no single film that's being made; there are hundreds of 'cuts' with the audience merely getting the single latest version. And with digital releases... companies are even making edits after release. And then there's stuff like Director's Cuts, with an extreme example being something like Zack Snyder's Justice League (which I actually thought was pretty good for what it was. Not my type of movie, but was enjoyable and made sense). Even the Peter Jackson's Extended cuts are vastly different products from the theatrical releases.

I don't believe that the story can be told in only one way. That's why I come at this from a critical 'what could be improved' mindset, rather than just settle for 'well this is the way the story has to be'.

In my opinion, Arondir's arc is merely introduction and setup for his character's 'backstory' for an intended greater role in the future. And that being said, I wouldn't actually mind if they merely introduced this guy in the 2nd season as a 'Survivor who went through bad shit in the Southlands', instead of devoting an entire POV arc in this season right now. And I'll be clear to say that this is based on the 4-episodes we have so far, as I am definitely going to reserve judgement for a full release of the season. My criticism comes from this show being paced too slowly, and there being too many POV plots to follow. Based on what we've seen so far, I think parts of the show could be trimmed down or even cut out to tell a more cohesive narrative.

[Syegfryed]

It's only a minor thing really. It happens in lots of shows/movies. Even in the original Fellowship film when they're escaping Moria the orc archers always miss. It's one of those BS things that you just sort have to roll your eyes at, but I wish the directors would actually have the good guys wounded to add a bit of realism to it.

i don't think the arrows missing is a problem, but the orcs being made vampires afraid of the sun not going for then

[Orby]

It's only a minor thing really. It happens in lots of shows/movies. Even in the original Fellowship film when they're escaping Moria the orc archers always miss. It's one of those BS things that you just sort have to roll your eyes at, but I wish the directors would actually have the good guys wounded to add a bit of realism to it.

The first thing I always think of is the stormtroopers from Star Wars original trilogy... worst aim ever. I mean orcs with crude weapons I can believe being a sloppy aim, but trained soliders? :P

[rhorle]

i don't think the arrows missing is a problem, but the orcs being made vampires afraid of the sun not going for then

Orcs have been shown to be reluctant to go in the sunlight. Without a superior in the group to force the issue it fits with Tolkien's work that they might decide not to.

[InfiniteCharger]

Eregion isn't a city. It is the region. The city you are talking about is Ost-in-Edhil. You are the one that is claiming the tower in Mordor is a replacement for a tower in Ost-in-Edhil. It isn't. The show has put a focus on Ost-in-Edhil and the forging of the rings but is establishing other story lines in the process. The watch tower where the elves were watching humans of mordor is not a replacement for anything. We have the elves ask the dwarves to help build a tower. A tower in Eregion. Why would Amazon have dwarves build a tower to forge rings of power if they were using the tower in Mordor for that purpose

Sauron was building his forces prior to the rings being made so this is what the show is hinting at with the Mordor scenes. About 100 years after the rings were forged there was a war between Sauron and Elves. https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/War_of_...ves_and_Sauron. So even without Amazon compressing the time line he would still have an army around that time.

You don't know the Tolkien lore. You don't know the show lore. Just stop before you keep arguing things not even present.

Eregion is an Elven realm with the main city being Ost-in-Edhil. Again, the whole realm of Eregion was founded according to the writing of the original lore was to be a bulwark against Sauron in some accounts. And it is to that city, prior to Sauron's presence and location being identified, that he traveled in disguise as the Elves were not expecting him. That made Eregion the center of the story in this era of the 2nd age and once Sauron was exposed as Annatar, he laid siege to Eregion. So all the elements of Elven defenses against Sauron, Sauron's trickery and deception in hiding his armies and the creation of the rings of power all centered around Eregion.

This tower in Amazon's story is an alternate location as a focus for their narrative as there is no Annatar and the forces of Sauron are not far to the south to keep from being detected. They are relatively close by the tower and thus ultimately detected so as to create a new flashpoint or center point for the conflict in this story separate from Eregion. Amazon is making their own version of the story and it is not going to follow the story as told by Tolkien. So obviously this tower and the human towns are supposed to be a focus of the conflict which is why they have this elven commander to act as a placeholder for Sauron. Otherwise, compressed timeline or not, there would be no need to have this tower as the focus because the story would simply be about Annatar infiltrating the Elves at Eregion.

You haven't disputed this and the show itself is telling you this. If Galadriel is going to war with the forces of Numenor they will be going to war at the tower not at Eregion. It is obvious that is the intent here. Eregion and the rings of power being created is likely going to come much later in a later season.

[rhorle]

This tower in Amazon's story in making this tower is using it as some alternate location as a focus for their narrative as there is no Annatar and the forces of Sauron are not far to the south to keep from being detected. They are relatively close by the tower and thus ultimately detected so as to create a new flashpoint or center point for the conflict in this story separate from Eregion.

Again. The tower where the rings were forged has been shown on the show. It is what Elrond recruited the dwarves to build. It is not the same tower that Arondir was stationed at. Sauron also recruited humans to his army in the second age and the show is exploring that. It hasn't replaced the Eregion story. You keep arguing your own head canon rather then what has been displayed on the show.

[Syegfryed]

Orcs have been shown to be reluctant to go in the sunlight. Without a superior in the group to force the issue it fits with Tolkien's work that they might decide not to.

thats just bullshit plot convenience because they have show to not have any problem to go in the sun light, especially when they are fully covered and could stand it just fine, especially if its to retrieve the item they have being searching for so long

Instead the show is treating then like vampires or trolls. Another bs thing for the sake of the plot to be keep going, there is nothing "fits with tolkien work".

[Niwes]

The orcs reach the edge of the wood and Arondir & co stand there for a full half minute while the orcs snarl at them. It's not until just before they decide to turn and run that a couple of arrows conveniently miss them. Just another poorly done moment in the show.

i think what ppls miss here (and what’s the reason for above discussed scene is): in the wood Arondir catched a flying arrow by hands, that otherwise had killed the boy. this scene was there imo to make clear, after the scene when he tried to escape, how trained and elven-powered he is.

and imo that’s also the reason why they just stand there in the sun, awaiting the charging orcs. because if they run away and show their backs to the orcs, the orcs fire them arrows into their backs. so Arondir just stand there, to be ready to defend or catch some arrow again.

imo that’s the reason (or was the intention) of this scene.

[rhorle]

Instead the show is treating then like vampires or trolls. Another bs thing for the sake of the plot to be keep going, there is nothing "fits with tolkien work".

Tolkien wrote several times that Orcs don't like the light. That doesn't mean they never went into it but it does indicate that some might not go into the light unless forced. You don't know Tolkien's work as well as you think if you believe it doesn't fit with what he wrote on the subject.

Thus because of the curse that lay upon them the Noldor achieved nothing, while Morgoth hesitated, and the dread of light was new and strong upon the Orcs…

East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight….

‘Unless our enemies rest also, they will leave us far behind, if we stay to sleep.’ said Legolas. ‘Surely even Orcs must pause on the march?’ said Gimli. ‘Seldom will Orcs journey in the open under the sun. yet these have done so,’ said Legolas. ‘Certainly they will not rest by night.’

‘Now straight on!’ shouted Uglúk. ‘West and a little north. Follow Lugdush.’

‘But what are we going to do at sunrise?’ said some of the Northerners.

‘Go on running,’ said Uglúk. ‘What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?’

‘But we can’t run in the sunlight.’

‘You’ll run with me behind you,’ said Uglúk. ‘Run! Or you’ll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What’s the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night lasts!'

[Syegfryed]

Tolkien wrote several times that Orcs don't like the light. That doesn't mean they never went into it but it does indicate that some might not go into the light unless forced. You don't know Tolkien's work as well as you think if you believe it doesn't fit with what he wrote on the subject.

I see you try to keep lying to hold the argument, trying to lecture me about orcs, Dislike the Sun does not mean you are a vampire and you burn from it, neither mean you don't go tog et your prey that is helpless right in front of you that are holding the thing you were looking for

[s_bushido]

Ah, I see we're once again whining about aspects of the show that the creators specifically mentioned in the lead-up to its release. These are supposed to be more nascent orcs, who haven't had the thousands of years of battles to toughen them up in the same way that "modern" orcs in the LotR era are. It's why they're relatively pale, wear light clothes, and don't have chunks of metal bolted everywhere on their bodies.

And this is all seemingly ignoring the Uruk-hai...who were notable in part because of their ability to move in the sunlight without issue. Whether that's because it would physically injure regular orcs, of if it was more a psychological thing is basically irrelevant.

But it is funny that you keep bringing up vampires, as if there aren't myriad interpretations of those, and the different things that weaken and/or kill them.

[Syegfryed]

Ah, I see we're once again whining about aspects of the show that the creators specifically mentioned in the lead-up to its release. These are supposed to be more nascent orcs, who haven't had the thousands of years of battles to toughen them up in the same way that "modern" orcs in the LotR era are. It's why they're relatively pale, wear light clothes, and don't have chunks of metal bolted everywhere on their bodies.

Oh yes, lets ignore the bullshit just because the creators specifically mentioned they were going to do bullshit, thats some great logic right there.

"more nascent orcs" would not be vampires, they do not burn in the sunlight, they are pale because you know it, wink wink, and they they wear clothes to protect from the sun, which is perfectly fine, but they just ignore that they have it and were covered in that scene

And this is all seemingly ignoring the Uruk-hai...who were notable in part because of their ability to move in the sunlight without issue. Whether that's because it would physically injure regular orcs, of if it was more a psychological thing is basically irrelevant.

Uruk-hai were hybrids of orcs and men, its something different.

But it is funny that you keep bringing up vampires, as if there aren't myriad interpretations of those, and the different things that weaken and/or kill them.

Oh, so orcs are supposed to be an interpretation of vampires now, nice.