Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[kenn9530]

But you didn't just say "good show", you said 4/5.

And now we've gone to "well it WOULD be 8/10 without reviews that I don't count" and "6/10 is still good!".

Doesn't seem like something you'd say about a "simple fact", does it.

All metrics prove the show is good even with BS reviews, if you deny that you are just lying to yourself, you also cant deny that many of the lowest reviews are actually inaccurate, some of the worst shows i have seen i wouldnt give a 1 star rating or a 1/10.

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You want to see Tolkien, but why do they feel the need to change someone else's work so much? Is it arrogance? or just a Hollywood trend - they think they are making it better? those changes just ruined a lot of what was actually rather quaint and distinguished about Moiddle Earth world of Tolkien. Which is why people like me despite being woke (not super woke - those guys have now become cultlists) are put off by the new series even though their a parts of it I like very much.

But then this same company felt it was fine to make even more woke, an already woke enough Wheel of Time - so I wonder if it's more a company policy Amazon studios wnats to promote or live by /shrug

I don't think they honour or respect Tolkien enough - those showrunners probably don't respect anyone and feel they can just up and change anything and their version will be better.. clearly not..

If the company doesnt have certain rights to do a certain part of the story then changes have to happen, its nothing about arrogance its about not getting sued by using copyright materials they are not allowed to use in the first place

[Mace]

If the company doesnt have certain rights to do a certain part of the story then changes have to happen, its nothing about arrogance its about not getting sued by using copyright materials they are not allowed to use in the first place

I think those rights just prevented them from using certain characters or events that are described in specific books, it doesn't stop them representing Tolkien's work faithfully or accurately, and it certainly doesn't mean they have to make Tolkien's work reflect current day trends or remake his characters to be more like what they think modern feminine heroes should be.


If you're doing Tolkien's world, shouldn't you stick faithfully to it?

I guess you can change what you want (at least within the bounds of the licences agreement.), but doesn't mean fans who you want to win over are going to like it when you change their characters and races in a bad way. But then the showrunners probably thought all the changes were in a good way.. and that's what you get when you bring your ideology to the table. you may think it's good, and your arrogance is what makes you assume everyone believes your view of the world is good.

IF you had stuck to the author's view and basis which is what is popular after all, not your ideology or world view, you'd get far less complaints - people of all kind of ideologies love Tolkien's work, even though they cannot identify with the world view or identities it's based on or agree or with them per say.


"IT felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien's work would reflect what the world actually looks like," - says Lindsey Weber - an executive producer

This is a direct quote, they were not interested in showing Tolkien's work, but adapting it to reflect today's world which is very different from it. Most people, today's peole, don't want to see today's world in every thing, and still enjoy Tolkien's work immensely even though it's not today's world and doesn't reflect it - and this oges for a lot of black, gay, young, people

[kenn9530]

I think those rights just prevented them from using certain characters or events that are described in specific books, it doesn't stop them representing Tolkien's work faithfully or accurately, and it certainly doesn't mean they have to make Tolkien's work reflect current day trends or remake his characters to be more like what they think modern feminine heroes should be.


If you're doing Tolkien's world, shouldn't you stick faithfully to it?

I guess you can change what you want (at least within the bounds of the licences agreement.), but doesn't mean fans who you want to win over are going to like it when you change their characters and races in a bad way. But then the showrunners probably thought all the changes were in a good way.. and that's what you get when you bring your ideology to the table. you may think it's good, and your arrogance is what makes you assume everyone believes your view of the world is good.

IF you had stuck to the author's view and basis which is what is popular after all, not your ideology or world view, you'd get far less complaints - people of all kind of ideologies love Tolkien's work, even though they cannot identify with the world view or identities it's based on or agree or with them per say.


"IT felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien's work would reflect what the world actually looks like," - says Lindsey Weber - an executive producer

This is a direct quote, they were not interested in showing Tolkien's work, but adapting it to reflect today's world which is very different from it. Most people, today's peole, don't want to see today's world in every thing, and still enjoy Tolkien's work immensely even though it's not today's world and doesn't reflect it - and this oges for a lot of black, gay, young, people

The way a book writer writes is also not always going to hold up for a film/tv series either, anyone expecting tolkien was expecting way too much because hes dead and its impossible to do a film/tv series the same as a book either.

Also the author has not explained every single detail about everything in the LOTR world so there is plenty that is up for changing to suit the requirements for a tv/film series.

The quote you posted has nothing to do with adapting to todays world views, its actually about showing what middle earth looked like in that age, nothing to do with racial casting or anything like that, if you find a suitable actor that can fill the role nothing else matters, especially since not everything is set in stone by tolkiens own words.

[rhorle]

I think those rights just prevented them from using certain characters or events that are described in specific books, it doesn't stop them representing Tolkien's work faithfully or accurately, and it certainly doesn't mean they have to make Tolkien's work reflect current day trends or remake his characters to be more like what they think modern feminine heroes should be.

If they can't use something then they can't be faithful, right? For example I remember seeing that in the Hobbit movies Gandalf couldn't name the Blue Wizards when asked about them because Jackson didn't have the rights to use them in the film. While they weren't named in the book the film was based on it is an example of how rights can impact even small things.

Also isn't some of the work the show is based on "established" by his son? So some of it is already a step removed from JRR Tolkien. So there really isn't a way to actually be faithful unless you just use the stuff that was published just by JRR.

[Triceron]

Any non-user score? On RT and Meta it is 84 and 71 according to critics. Wouldn't that put it in the "good" category? Imdb total rating is 6.9 which dropped from 7.2 earlier in the season. I would think a 6.9 is still in "good", right? Though I'm not sure where RT gets their critic score from since they don't list any "professional" reviews like Meta does.

Critic scores are based in what? The first two episodes? Or the whole series first season?

[rhorle]

Critic scores are based in what? The first two episodes? Or the whole series first season?

Does that really matter? It's not like user scores are based on all episodes. So we will never have a universal rating for the entire season. You can check each metacritic review if it really is important to you.

[Levelfive]

I think those rights just prevented them from using certain characters or events that are described in specific books, it doesn't stop them representing Tolkien's work faithfully or accurately, and it certainly doesn't mean they have to make Tolkien's work reflect current day trends or remake his characters to be more like what they think modern feminine heroes should be.


If you're doing Tolkien's world, shouldn't you stick faithfully to it?

I guess you can change what you want (at least within the bounds of the licences agreement.), but doesn't mean fans who you want to win over are going to like it when you change their characters and races in a bad way. But then the showrunners probably thought all the changes were in a good way.. and that's what you get when you bring your ideology to the table. you may think it's good, and your arrogance is what makes you assume everyone believes your view of the world is good.

IF you had stuck to the author's view and basis which is what is popular after all, not your ideology or world view, you'd get far less complaints - people of all kind of ideologies love Tolkien's work, even though they cannot identify with the world view or identities it's based on or agree or with them per say.


"IT felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien's work would reflect what the world actually looks like," - says Lindsey Weber - an executive producer

This is a direct quote, they were not interested in showing Tolkien's work, but adapting it to reflect today's world which is very different from it. Most people, today's peole, don't want to see today's world in every thing, and still enjoy Tolkien's work immensely even though it's not today's world and doesn't reflect it - and this oges for a lot of black, gay, young, people

It's so wild that you think it's "ideology" if showrunners think they're "changing race in a good way," but see none in your objection that it's "changing race in a bad way," and similarly assume Tolkein wasn't operating on "ideology" when he made characters white. It would truly be a thing of beauty if the next time people collapsed and clawed their their chests over the inclusion of black people, while pretending it's fidelity to the work of fantasy they're upset about (it's about ethics in film adaptations!), that they replace every single white character with a person of color and call it a fucking day. What astonishes me--and it's not the casual racism because that's as tedious and run of the mill as it gets--is the absolute utter stinginess of people who just can't bear to share a single goddamn shred of joy with anyone else.

[Triceron]

Does that really matter? It's not like user scores are based on all episodes. So we will never have a universal rating for the entire season. You can check each metacritic review if it really is important to you.

Well yes it matters because you're measuring critic reviews of the first two episodes to the show being good or bad, especially if the context is that the viewership numbers are dropping off (disputable and without evidence)

I wouldn't count any review scores towards measuring a show being good or bad if it isn't covering the full season.

[rhorle]

Well yes it matters because you're measuring critic reviews of the first two episodes to the show being good or bad, especially if the context is that the viewership numbers are dropping off (disputable and without evidence)

So is everyone else in this thread when they call the show good or bad because the full season has yet to come out.

[Triceron]

So is everyone else in this thread when they call the show good or bad because the full season has yet to come out.

Er, people are actually watching the show and presenting opinions as it comes out. Reviews are static. Big difference?

[InfiniteCharger]

Naw, season will end with the rings starting to be crafted, I bet the last scene is maybe seeing the one ring being pulled out of a mold or some such. No way we get Sauron actually fighting, only big battle/fighting we will get is next episode at the tower (mini helms deep) and a final battle with the orcs/Adar vs Galadriel/Numenor.

Also Radagast and Saruman didn't arrive in Middle Earth till the 3rd age, they could have the 2nd blue wizard come as when they arrived has changed. Then again considering we have the rings being made while Elendil/Isildur are alive and the Durin's Bane awakening in this age instead of thousands of years into the 3rd age who fucking knows.



Mate don't engage Kenn, he is the guy that rabidly defends Star Citizens, not worth it. Not to mention anyone that calls this show great while shitting on Tolkien is a pretty obvious troll.

This season is building up to a big showdown in the region that will become Mordor. The tower storyline is centered on that. None of that has absolutely anything to do with Tolkien or literally how the rings of power will be made. And I am pretty sure that the way those rings get made will also not be following Tolkien either. This entire series is simply randomly picking pieces of lore from Tolkien and adding a lot of non canon stories to make up their own version of the second age which is literally not a prequel to the Lord of the Rings book or movies because it is non canon.

That is the biggest problem here in that they tried to claim it was going to be close to canon and true to the source material but all of that was misleading marketing when this series does not have the rights to begin to claim that. At best this series is nothing more than a what if kind of fan fiction about how things could have happened in the second age based on how these writers and producers imagined it, but literally not canon to anything in Tolkien. But they called it "rings of power" to literally imply that this series is going to show the canonical story of how the rings got made when it is just their own "re-imagining" of the second age more than anything else. And if they had sold it like that up front there wouldn't have been as much push back but they tried so hard to claim otherwise to cash in on people wanting to see some of the canonical stories from the second age actually brought to screen.

[s_bushido]

That is the biggest problem here in that they tried to claim it was going to be close to canon and true to the source material but all of that was misleading marketing when this series does not have the rights to begin to claim that.

lol... Still salty about this, are we? I would say that one day you'll figure out that the realities of making adaptations means that this petulant whining could apply to any of them, but I'm not convinced that you have that capacity. A shame.

Might as well be complaining that there's not enough "woke ideology" in the story, since that's clearly what the marketing led us to believe. And that would be just as stupid a think to say.

[InfiniteCharger]

lol... Still salty about this, are we? I would say that one day you'll figure out that the realities of making adaptations means that this petulant whining could apply to any of them, but I'm not convinced that you have that capacity. A shame.

So you are saying I am right and salty that this made up story literally isn't even trying to be canonical? And if that is the case then this isn't about the realities of making an adaptation as this literally is not trying to be an adaptation at all which is the point. The only thing I would be salty about is if I believed the misleading marketing trying to claim it was going to be canonical, which I never did to begin with.

Sounds like you are still stuck on that argument that this is about the complexities of adaptations, when the fact is this literally isn't an adaptation.
At the end of EVERY episode the series itself says point blank "This production contains dialogue, characters and places that are inspired by, though not contained in, the original source material".

And that was the whole point of my previous post which is they tried to market this as a literal adaptation of the second age, knowing full well it is completely a made up story that only uses the rights they bought to set it in the 2nd age and call it "rings of power". But it is literally not a prequel to the Lord of the Rings, nor a canonical telling of the events of the second age or how the rings of power were created. But I guess you aren't trying to argue that point now are you?

[rhorle]

So you are saying I am right and salty that this made up story literally isn't even trying to be canonical?

How can a made up story be canonical when the entire reason it is made up is because it wasn't in the canon? lol.

[InfiniteCharger]

How can a made up story be canonical when the entire reason it is made up is because it wasn't in the canon? lol.

It isn't canon and nothing in this series is going to be considered the defacto record of what happened in the 2nd age.
And that is because they don't have the rights to tell the 'defacto' story of the second age.
This is the confusion that Amazon themselves have promoted through their marketing and that is the problem.
Which says that the Tolkien estate allowed them to use the words LOTR and Rings of Power aiding the confusion.
The only thing they have the rights to are some characters and places from Tolkien in the appendices.
Otherwise, everything else is simply Amazon's own made up story and irrelevant to the actual lore of the legendarium.
Sounds like you just cannot accept that reality.

[rhorle]

It isn't canon and nothing in this series is going to be considered the defacto record of what happened in the 2nd age.

Right. It isn't canon. Why is that something that the haters have to keep repeating when everyone here is fully aware of that? The Jackson movies weren't canon either and they didn't need a warning for people to understand that, right? Even work done by the Estate and Christopher are not canon since they are not JRR.

[Biomega]

Almost three hundred pages, and the trolls are STILL going "no no no you don't understand, this new work made to show us stuff we've never seen in books IS NOT LIKE THE ORIGINAL WRITINGS!".

Dear gods.

[InfiniteCharger]

Right. It isn't canon. Why is that something that the haters have to keep repeating when everyone here is fully aware of that? The Jackson movies weren't canon either and they didn't need a warning for people to understand that, right? Even work done by the Estate and Christopher are not canon since they are not JRR.

So we agree whatever story they made up is irrelevant to Tolkien then? We OK now? Whatever story unfolds in this series is irrelevant to Tolkien.
You are the one who seems to have a problem with that.

OR, you just don't want to admit that this was a dumb exercise from the beginning in trying to tell a story that doesn't matter to Lord of the Rings. In calling this series "Lord of the Rings: The RIngs of Power", Amazon is trying to market it as something it is not is the point that I am making. You can sit here and argue all day about your opinions but the fact is that this marketing is deliberately deceptive. People reading that title would not be wrong in assuming that this series is the literal story of how the Rings of Power got created in Tolkien. But it is not. And that is the point.

All of the marketing is deliberately phrased in such a way to make it seem like this is anything other than something Amazon made up and it is not even an adaptation. It is nothing more than a purely whimsical flight of fancy that has no absolute bearing on the actual legendarium if that is what someone is interested in. And that is why it is marketed in the way it is, because the prestige of Tolkien is what people are attracted to and Amazon has nothing to do with that. They only basically bought the rights to use the words "Lord of the Rings: Rings of Power" and some characters and places but otherwise this has absolutely no connection to the books whatsoever.

[rhorle]

So we agree whatever story they made up is irrelevant to Tolkien then? We OK now?

I'm not sure I can answer that as you seem to be getting aggressive over something you've made up entirely in your own mind. You also don't seem to understand what an adaptation is. Even the Jackson films were not the story that Tolkien told. They added things, changed things, left out things. You are making a point that no one actually cares about but yourself.

[InfiniteCharger]

I'm not sure I can answer that as you seem to be getting aggressive over something you've made up entirely in your own mind. You also don't seem to understand what an adaptation is. Even the Jackson films were not the story that Tolkien told. They added things, changed things, left out things. You are making a point that no one actually cares about but yourself.

It isn't an adaptation. You keep trying to claim it as something that Amazon doesn't even say it is and neither does the Tolkien estate.
It is a story that Amazon made up and bought the rights from the Estate to put Lord of the Rings Rings of Power on it.
That is all it is. You are the one who keeps desperately trying to claim it is an adaptation when it is not.
As you yourself said, there is no actual story to adapt, so they literally are just making up stuff.
So what is your objection to me saying the obvious that it is literally not an adaptation or canon?
You can't have it both ways.