1. #5561
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You're using numbers like 100% hidden until Sauron's return.
    Right. That is what is being discussed and what you've argued against. As I said it would be reasonable for Orcs, with no master, to not remain 100% hidden over 1,000+ years. You claimed it isn't reasonable to say that because Tolkien never wrote it. This is exactly what is being talked about and I'm not sure why you are confused after you've argued on the subject.

    As for the show news has reached Numenor because of Galadrial meeting refugees and being rescued. It may be reasonable to assume they have heard reports of Orcs but are not interacting with Elves to pass that information along. Remember the show sets up that they have turned hostile towards elves in recent years. The elves are not omnipotent and the show hasn't shown that they had people watching port cities in the Southlands or actively patroling against Corsairs. There is an entire world of people out there that hasn't been under their thumb.

    If one random chance encounter is capable of shaking the world, then yes I would say it's not reasonably comparable to Tolkien's original depiction of a secret Orc army that was able to move on Eregion in secret.
    Lmao. Tolkien used change encounters all the time in order to shake the world. Bilbo finding the One Ring was a chance encounter. Sauron's army didn't move on Eregion in secret because his war started about 100 years after he revealed himself when creating/wearing the One Ring. Random Orc raiding parties also doesn't contradict Sauron regaining control of Orcs in secret. Remember Tolkien explicitly wrote that some Orc tribes ignored him because they didn't think Annatar was Sauron. Isn't it reasonable to think they might still have raiding parties and other "Daily life" things?

    It also ignores how Sauron was already corrupting the lands of Men "in secret" as well. Which the elves didn't notice over that 600 year or so period before the One Ring was forged. So even in Tolkien's work the Elves were not fully aware of everything happening. What we are seeing on the show is the tail end of Sauron's "hidden" phase. As I said since the Elves were unaware of port cities being attacked with Orcs or having refugees or even the Kingdom Halbrand cane from it is clear how Orcish activity could remain unseen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    He's not talking about it being reasonable to the show. He's talking about it being reasonable within the context of Tolkien's fiction.
    Okay lets try this one. Is it reasonable that Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Humans, and what not have to use the bathroom? Tolkien never writes about it so according to you it isn't something that his creations are required to do. They are required to consume food and drink but to never excrete waste. So if it is reasonable to assume they do that stuff isn't it reasonable to assume Orcs might raid and pillage? At least with Dwarves who inhabited the same mountain ranges as them? Wouldn't it be reasonable that over 1,000+ years Elves would know Orcs existed but without a master?

    Though I've seen it said that Galadriel didn't give Sam a jar of dirt but a jar of her own poop. As the elves diet would make for excellent fertilizer. Lol.
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  2. #5562
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Right. That is what is being discussed and what you've argued against. As I said it would be reasonable for Orcs, with no master, to not remain 100% hidden over 1,000+ years.
    Then you're shifting the argument for the purpose of arguing technicalities.

    Are you considering the Watchtower and Halbrand's exodus to be trivial appearances of the Orcs that will otherwise keep them secret? We already know the cat's out of the bag.

    Lmao. Tolkien used change encounters all the time in order to shake the world. Bilbo finding the One Ring was a chance encounter.
    Yes but that is the canon.

    If what you're arguing is some what-if scenario of Bilbo never finding the ring and posing it as a question of whether that'd be reasonable, I would say no. That wouldn't be reasonable because we it is not mere coincidence but even EXPLAINED the Ring has a will and influence to find a new Master.

    So I refute that example that you use. You can feel free to try another if you wish.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-22 at 05:54 PM.

  3. #5563
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    He's not talking about it being reasonable to the show. He's talking about it being reasonable within the context of Tolkien's fiction.

    As I said, if the show wants Orcs fearing the sun, burning in the sun, glittering like Twilight boys or whatever, then it can do it. But we can't retroactively apply this logic back to saying 'well it'd be reasonable in Tolkien's fiction too'. No, it wouldn't be unless Tolkien actually wrote about it.

    And if we're talking about what Tolkien wrote about drowning, then we reasonably assume that Elves can and do drown because he wrote a side story about an Elf who swam into the open sea and was never heard of again. That'd be the only relevant case in Tolkien's own work.
    Ya I get that he’s talking about retroactively apply what would be reasonable on the setting but aren’t you (and every one else) doing the same thing but to the show?

    Like all of us thinking Glad would/could have drown is us retroactively applying real world logic and saying “well it'd be reasonable in Show to” even though we are never shown any thing to actually fit it.

    Or even with Tolkiens work as you said he wrote a story about an elf who is never heard of again in the sea and pretty much every ones respond is “well it would be reasonable for him to have drown” even though Tolkien ever actually wrote about him drowning just him not being seen again which could have numerous other outcomes.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #5564
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Ya I get that he’s talking about retroactively apply what would be reasonable on the setting but aren’t you (and every one else) doing the same thing but to the show?

    Like all of us thinking Glad would/could have drown is us retroactively applying real world logic and saying “well it'd be reasonable in Show to” even though we are never shown any thing to actually fit it.

    Or even with Tolkiens work as you said he wrote a story about an elf who is never heard of again in the sea and pretty much every ones respond is “well it would be reasonable for him to have drown” even though Tolkien ever actually wrote about him drowning just him not being seen again which could have numerous other outcomes.
    The difference is we're using these 'retroactively applied reasons' to disseminate the motivations and actions of characters.

    The entire discussion of Galadriel drowning is whether she is self-aware of the risks she's taking when she jumps off the ship and tries to swim the full distance. And in her defense, some people have tried to argue that she could somehow be resistant to drowning and is physically superior to any mere mortal who would attempt the same. Even illustrating this by showing a story where an Elf swims beyond distance of sight (even though that same story implies he fucking drowned).

    The criticism illustrated how an alternative scenario may have made more sense. It would have been more reasonable if Galadriel merely stole a ship and tried sailing back on her own. As she ended up being shown attempting in Numenor a couple episodes later.

    Whether or not Elves drown was a mostly-pointless tangent from a completely different argument being made.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-22 at 06:06 PM.

  5. #5565
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes but that is the canon. Then you're shifting the argument for the purpose of arguing technicalities.
    So why the double standard? Why can Tolkien use chance encounters but the show using a chance encounter is bad?

    Then you're shifting the argument for the purpose of arguing technicalities.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Do you really think that for 500 years there was no evidence of Orcs? Or even zero between the end of the War of Wrath and the return of Sauron?
    I didn't shift the argument. It is what the argument was about. I asked you a question using Tolkien's timeline to indicate how something on the show could be possible.
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  6. #5566
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So why the double standard? Why can Tolkien use chance encounters but the show using a chance encounter is bad?
    I outright refuted your idea that Bilbo finding the Ring was a 'Chance encounter'. Are you even reading?

    The Ring has a will of its own and seeks out a new master. How or why, I can't explain, but Tolkien says so and that's how Bilbo came about getting the Ring.

    There is no double standard. You just can't fucking read.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-22 at 06:17 PM.

  7. #5567
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Duh. However it does explain why they didn't go get people with the sun rising. If they don't like the sun it makes sense for them to not go there if something isn't around to force them. It again fits Tolkien narrative that orcs are hesitant to go in the sun but can if forced too. You can ignore the quotes from tolkien that indicate this all you want. All that shows is that you can't handle the truth of Tolkien's work and ignore is just so you can complain.
    Jus not liking something does not mean you cannot go in the sun, especially when you are covered, stopspitting this argument over and over

    they have someone forcing then, they have a goal thy were forced to do, not going there is pure garbage plot convenience deus ex machina that this show have by the dozens


    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I am not cherry picking anything. Are you this desperate to be part of a discussion that you'll make up your own argument just to be involved? They keep arguing two different things that fear of the sun doesn't make sense, or fit with tolkien's work, and that the sun damaging them doesn't fit. I've taken issue with one but not the other. .
    So you straight up confirm this does not fit tolkien vision, because this is not something tolkien wrote, but some shit the showrunners made up

    Gladly you refute it yourself

  8. #5568
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The Ring has a will of its own and seeks out a new master. How or why, I can't explain, but Tolkien says so and that's how it's generally explained how Bilbo came about getting the Ring.
    That still doesn't change the fact that Tolkien wrote a chance encounter and later had it explained by Gandalf implying a higher power was at work. It wasn't the ring as it can't influence the entire world like that. Otherwise wouldn't it have had an orc? It is implied that a Valar helped out in tiny way.

    “Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring and not by its maker.”
    You are trying to argue an writing technique with an in-lore reasoning. That doesn't work. It also ignores how if they show later explains it in a similar way that I bet you'd still object to the chance encounter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they have someone forcing then, they have a goal thy were forced to do, not going there is pure garbage plot convenience deus ex machina that this show have by the dozens
    Who was forcing them at the time to run into the blazing rays of the rising sun? Which again doesn't contradict the vision of Tolkien since he quite often wrote about Orcs not wanting to go into the sun if they had a choice. He even created super orcs with out that weakness. As the Uruk-hai didn't tire as fast during the day like the "normal" orcs did. They were not weakened by the light and did not fear the light.
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  9. #5569
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That still doesn't change the fact that Tolkien wrote a chance encounter and later had it explained by Gandalf implying a higher power was at work. It wasn't the ring as it can't influence the entire world like that. Otherwise wouldn't it have had an orc? It is implied that a Valar helped out in tiny way.
    Well then you're arguing against Tolkien's work, not me.

    Again, if you want to start a new thread about Tolkien book criticisms, feel free to. I'm not going to be baited into an off-topic discussion of the books just because you want some parity.

    Tolkien has a lot of questionable writing himself, but that is a completely separate discussion of what's happening in Rings of Power. Sorry but I'm not going to humor the discussion you want, it's really a completely different rabbit hole.

    You can see that I'm not even comparing Rings of Power to Tolkien's work, so I'm not sure why you're trying to catch me in some 'double standard'. Everything being relative to Tolkien's work is merely contrasting the differences in how the two different plots play out, and how RoP is doing it differently and doesn't fit back into 'canon'.

    You are trying to argue an writing technique with an in-lore reasoning. That doesn't work. It also ignores how if they show later explains it in a similar way that I bet you'd still object to the chance encounter.
    I'm not criticizing the show for using chance encounters in the first place. Why the fuck are you even assuming this lol.

    I made a point that the Orcs attacking HALBRAND'S VILLAGE ended up being the evidence Galadriel needed to muster forces in Numenor. You can't call this an insignificant Orc encounter that could have easily fit in Tolkien's work. It's not the fact it Orcs being found out or Halbrand meeting Galadriel was merely a chance encounter, it's the fact it's a SIGNFICANT revelation that is involving the Commander of the Elven Armies and the nation of Numenor into taking action in the Southlands.

    We're all pointing this out because you're literally arguing that the Southlands arc does not affect the Orc army remaining secret. Yes, yes it does, because Rings of Power isn't telling the same story as the original canon and you're making up excuses that make no sense. They're already being outed and Galadriel is fully aware they are in the Southlands.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-22 at 06:40 PM.

  10. #5570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Well then you're arguing against Tolkien's work, not me.
    So it is bad to use the same writing style of the source material. Gotcha. It is amazing how some argue that Tolkien can't be improved on and no changes should occur while others argue that the show should improve on Tolkien and not use the same techniques that they claim are bad writing. This is why it is a double standard. You are holding the show to some higher standard then its source material. Why?

    If something doesn't fit back into canon then you are comparing Rings of Power to Tolkien's work. Because his work is Canon. Lmao. It is crazy how you always contradict yourself and argue against your own statements.
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  11. #5571
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Who was forcing them at the time to run into the blazing rays of the rising sun? Which again doesn't contradict the vision of Tolkien since he quite often wrote about Orcs not wanting to go into the sun if they had a choice. He even created super orcs with out that weakness. As the Uruk-hai didn't tire as fast during the day like the "normal" orcs did. They were not weakened by the light and did not fear the light.
    Oh, so you are saying they need someone PHYISICALLY at their side forcing then, having a leader who told then to get the item they were looking for for this whole time is not enough, they would left their life's job run away that easily just because "they don't like the sun', especially when the show already show they can go in the sun even when not liking like and not one forcing then like in the rebellion attempt. with Pelégolas

    Sure buddy, thats some convenient plot for you isn't? Just as convenient as their arrows only working precisely when the people left the place where they shot,


    Tolkien did not wrote orcs to be vampires, and you brought a quote that literally explain how the showrunners changed the orcs for the show, therefore, does not fit Tolkien view because its not like what he wrote. You though you would get a gotcha with the quote, but you just refuted yourself

    Honestly, is rly inspiring how you can fight so frivolous for a mediocre and garbage show like this


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    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2022-09-22 at 06:38 PM.

  12. #5572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Oh, so you are saying they need someone PHYISICALLY at their side forcing then
    So what psychic thing was forcing them at that moment? They can be afraid of the blazing rays of the sunrise without being a vampire. There was nothing shown to be present like Adar, Uruk-hai, or other "dark" creature. You keep ignoring how Tolkien displayed Orcs to have a fear of the light. The Northern Orcs (from Moria) wanted to halt and wait for Night time even though they had a task to do. The Uruk-hai forced them onwards.
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  13. #5573
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If something doesn't fit back into canon then you are comparing Rings of Power to Tolkien's work. Because his work is Canon. Lmao. It is crazy how you always contradict yourself and argue against your own statements.
    Er, Rings of Power is its own 'universe/multiverse'. It has nothing directly to do with any other adaptation. It is not canon to the Book story.

    There's no contradiction here. You're calling out double standards without acknowledging what's being said. You're cherry picking statements out of context to build false arguments. You're trying to tangent the argument onto criticizing Tolkien's own work, even though every argument I've made about the show is specific to the show, and literally saying none of this 'reasonable' bullshit applies back into the original canon.

    Not sure where you're confused here.

    Just sounds like you're shit posting for the sake of shit posting.

  14. #5574
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Er, Rings of Power is its own 'universe/multiverse'. It has nothing directly to do with any other adaptation. It is not canon to the Book story.
    So why is it okay for you to bring up how things relate to canon but when I do it I am wrong for doing so? Again a double standard where things are always good when you mention it but bad when others mention it. The contradiction is how you always call the show bad for doing things that show up in the source material. Chance encounters are not bad writing.

    The "reasonable" stuff does apply back to Tolkiens work. Again Tolkien never talked about his world using the bathroom but it is reasonable to assume they do, right? And that Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, and Humans would have sewage systems since their surroundings are not depicted as covered in feces, right? This entire point was to counter your argument that only things explicitly stated by Tolkien can be assumed to happen in his "world".

    That isn't the case because things he hasn't written about, like pooping, are reasonable to assume exist. It shows you are the one who is confused which might explain why yet again you go from having a discussion to insults.
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  15. #5575
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Whether or not Elves drown was a mostly-pointless tangent from a completely different argument being made.
    Ya sure but that’s not really my point, if you can’t say it’s reasonable for X to happen because Tolkien never wrote it how is that different then saying Y is reasonable even
    Though it’s also never shown or written.

    Or in other words is it not reasonable to say elfs can drown at all both in Tolkiens work or the show because neither the show nor Tolkien ever actually writes/shows that they can.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #5576
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So why is it okay for you to bring up how things relate to canon but when I do it I am wrong for doing so?
    Yeah but I'M not the one relating to canon. IC is. I'm merely EXPLAINING what the situation is and why your explanations don't make sense.

    Read all my replies to you. I haven't actually personally made any connection between the show and Tolkien's work as any statement to compare or contrast the two. I merely have pointed out how they're both different and your explanation that the Show's logic works for the Books doesn't work.

  17. #5577
    It's amazing to see how some people only care about the lore when it's to mention the gaps in the books to justify stupid decisions and bad writting in the show.

    You either care about the lore or you don't. You don't get to pick both out of convenience or blatant intellectual dishonesty
    Last edited by tikcol; 2022-09-22 at 07:04 PM.
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  18. #5578
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yeah but I'M not the one relating to canon. IC is. I'm merely EXPLAINING what the situation is and why your explanations don't make sense.
    By using its relation to canon. You make connections when convenient for what you want to say while bashing it when others use it against you. You had no problem with anyone use it until you ran out of an argument and turned to insults and dismissal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    You either care about the lore or you don't. You don't get to pick both out of convinience or blatant intellectual dishonesty
    Just because they are not 1:1 copying lore doesn't mean that everything is made up by Amazon and there isn't merits in discussing how different it is. It is strange how you only comment to complain about others with veiled insults.
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  19. #5579
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So what psychic thing was forcing them at that moment? They can be afraid of the blazing rays of the sunrise without being a vampire. There was nothing shown to be present like Adar, Uruk-hai, or other "dark" creature. You keep ignoring how Tolkien displayed Orcs to have a fear of the light. The Northern Orcs (from Moria) wanted to halt and wait for Night time even though they had a task to do. The Uruk-hai forced them onwards.
    How much time you are going to rehash the same shit that were already proven to be wrong in contrast of the show? its basically ad hoc rescue fallacy at this point, just give up, show refuted you, even you refuted yourself, its not worthy to hang on this, try to salvage another dead argument

  20. #5580
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    How much time you ae going to rehash the same shit that were already proven to be wrong in contrast of the show? its basically ad hoc rescue fallacy at this point, just give up, even you refuted yourself the show refuted you, its not worthy to hang on this, try to salvage another dead argument
    I didn't refute anything I've said. The Orcs on the show have a fear of the light that the same as with the works of Tolkien. The difference is in what light does to the Orcs. Isn't it interesting how you can't say what was supposed to be present to mental force them to run into the blazing sun and instead dismiss and insult?
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