1. #5601
    Banned rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Lots of Elves drowned, usually in storms. Uinen killed a bunch of Noldor after the First Kinslaying, the crew of the ship sent by Turgon drowned with only Voronwë saved because Ulmo had a job for him, Amroth (sometimes Galadriel's son) also drowned and Elwing (Elrond's mum) probably expected to drown if Ulmo hadn't turned her into a huge frickin' bird.

    So the answer to "can Elves drown" is "not if a higher power doesn't want them to," like the higher power Galadriel says is responsible for her and Helbrand coming together.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The phrase refers to the stubborn English habit of not adopting local customs and taking afternoon strolls in the hotter parts of the empire. Comparing them to mad dogs was just a way of hammering home how stupid the activity was, it had nothing to do with hunting dogs.
    it was a phrase coined by the late Rudyard Kipling, referencing predominantly English Gentlemen in India during the main period of Imperial rule, specifically those English gentlemen who would take their dogs out hunting the local wildlife for sport, particularly the Bengal tiger, it was noted that these English gentlemen were 'mad' to go out during the hottest part of the day, and while that is a true enough statement it was learned years later that it also had to do with the behavioural change seen in the hunting dogs due to severe heatstroke making them act in a 'mad' way, running around in circles, not obeying commands, and frothing at the mouth and gnashing their teeth, the phrase was made popular by the song of the same name by Noel Coward, it was this specific behavioural change that the Orcs are exhibiting, and through word of mouth like an old wives tale they as a species have been indoctrinated to fear the sun because of the 'madness' and 'fear' it can cause them due to exposure.

    i feel like quoting Aslan here, because i'm sick and fed up of having to explain the point being made to multiple people multiple times because they are incapable of understanding said point from the information provided to them, in future, don't try and sound like a smart arse it doesn't suit you.

  2. #5602
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i feel like quoting Aslan here, because i'm sick and fed up of having to explain the point being made to multiple people multiple times because they are incapable of understanding said point from the information provided to them, in future, don't try and sound like a smart arse it doesn't suit you.
    Orcs are not the only creature that dislikes the light. Their dislike has roots in them being created when it was eternal night and not some made up word of mouth campaign to indoctrinate them. As I said Tolkien in the Hobbit and LotR has indicated that sunlight has an effect on Orcs. The Moria orcs were tiring faster then then Uruk-hai during the day but had no problem during the night. There is a reason why the Uruk-hai were created to not have that weakness and why the skies were made dark by both Morgoth and Sauron.

    You may believe it is indoctrination and some reference to India. That very well might be the inspiration from Tolkien (is it stated in a letter?) but it still doesn't change that it isn't a made up thing as Tolkien wrote their fear and effects into Canon.

    Thus because of the curse that lay upon them the Noldor achieved nothing, while Morgoth hesitated, and the dread of light was new and strong upon the Orcs….
    East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight….
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-23 at 01:24 AM.
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  3. #5603
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    So the answer to "can Elves drown" is "not if a higher power doesn't want them to," like the higher power Galadriel says is responsible for her and Helbrand coming together..
    Power also called Deus ex Machina, or Plot armor

  4. #5604
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Power also called Deus ex Machina, or Plot armor
    Yup, Tolkien loved him some Deus ex Machina and Plot Armour.

  5. #5605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Yup, Tolkien loved him some Deus ex Machina and Plot Armour.
    Comparing tolkien plot armor with the show is criminal

  6. #5606
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    Episode 5 review

    An okay episode. Very indifferent on it.

    Straight off the bat I will say I can see people are going to be hating on the Galadriel sword fight scene, but for me I think its the part of the show that has given us more personality to her than most of the season. Its been no secret that the Galadriel scenes have weighed this show down for me. I wish they'd be more consistent with that because after this its back to bitch face grumpy child Galadriel. I am pretty sure everything wrong with her is the fault of the director. I don;t fault the actress, she is putting it all into what she is given and she seems very lost most of the time. And everything around her is just 'bleh', I don't care about the queen or Isidor, or the other stuff, its the central plot and I wanna see more of the supporting arcs

    Speaking of which, the Arondir arc is shaping up, we getting towards this tower battle scene. which I feel is going to be one of the better action scenes in the show so far. Still loving the orc designs and I really like Adar, I do feel he is but the big bad of this season. I think so far its fine. I seem never to have much to say about the arondir side of the show, its pretty much the most straight forward with neither much to compliment or complain about.

    The Harfoot stuff, up to this point, I havent complained about as much as most but I think the honeymoon period of seeing Lenny Henry again is just wearing off now and I am just starting to see them as a nuisance rather than anythign interesting, the same way a comic relief character in a Disney movie is, like a timone and Pumba or a Cogsworth, or the Stone Gargoyles are. The stranger at this point I feel needs to be exposed by the end of the season, I would hope. Speaking of which, some dumb written character choices are made with them this episode. I did not enjoy the Harfoot arc this time around.

    The Elrond and Durin arc... like fucking seriously, why is this show just not about them. An Elrond and Durin road trip around middle-earth, Anythign! Whenever those two are on screen or when Princess Disa is with them, this show just ups to a 10/10 alone, I feel like these are the only part of the show I connect with 100% of the time. I wanna see their friendship, I wanna see Elrond battle his choice between his oath and his people, its so much more gripping than anything else this show has shown. also that running joke with Durin and the table... I liked that.

    Of course everything else in this episode the music the visuals still absolutely stunning but I expect that at this point, I cannot keep repeating myself on that point. As much as I cannot keep repeating my complaints on pacing and dialogue (oh dear the dialogue) :P

    So yea a step down this episode from last, but I do feel like the show is starting to weigh a bit now, I am bored throughout most parts but man the Elrond and Durin stuff is good, the Arondir stuff is fine too. everything else is meh, my opinions are changing a lot from the first episode.

    5/10

    Past reviews.
    Episode 1: 6/10
    Episode 2: 7/10

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53897065
    Episode 3: 4/10
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53904070
    Episode 4: 6/10
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53910372
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-10-07 at 11:41 AM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  7. #5607
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    All you did is indicate that Tolkien was saying that Orcs would suffer heat stroke where other creatures would not. It is amazing how you can say so much while saying so little.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The word you are looking for is addition. Nothing is replaced but things are added. It didn't exclusively take place around Eregion as Gil-Galad asked the Numenorians to establish outposts to help combat the growing shadow in the east. The wars also took place in Eriador. Weird, right? The rings of power were not created with out Elves knowing of the growing threat. As Gil-Galad warns the Numenorian King in SA 882. The first rings were forged in 1,500 with the one ring forged in 1,600.

    Isn't it strange how you claim something wasn't known when it happened 718 years before you claim they first found out? They didn't know it was Sauron but they knew orcs and other "evil" was up to something. Eregion wasn't sacked until 97 years after Sauron revealed himself and 4 years after he started a war with the elves.

    So again. The RoP Mordor arc is not a replacement to the Eregion story in Canon. It is an addition. You yourself even stated that Eregion will appear later in the series which wouldn't be possible if it was replaced.
    No the word is replaced. And everything you just mentioned is proving it, because this ROP Mordor arc is to replace a story where that arc did not exist. And the key here is the fact that Sauron's presence was not known when he appeared as Annatar and therefore there was no battle with any Orcs at a Tower in the Southlands prior to the forging of the rings of power. His appearance not being known made it easier for him to infiltrate Eregion as Annatar. So it is replacing a story where all the major events took place in and around Eregion.


    All you are doing is splitting hairs about semantics.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-23 at 11:04 AM.

  8. #5608
    Episode 5 was really a damn good episode. It had good pacing, and mixed both the seriousness and the joy and beauty of LotR. The mood amongst the numenorean soldiers captures very well a feeling that existed within soldiers going to world war 1. The feeling of invincibility and optimism before the actual fighting began and revealed its horrors. It feels very true to the original author in that sense. Galadriels fighting scene was also good imo, in fact I think they should've toned down the troll fight a bit and let this be our first introduction to her capabilities as a warrior.

  9. #5609
    Well, I guess I was partially right about the mysterious glowy stuff in the dwarf king's box, after all. It's more important than just a valuable metal. I think they could have done a better job explaining this new significance it has for the elves, though. /shrug Maybe they'll do more of that later when the topic is brought back to the king.

    I do like that they're keeping meteor man ambiguous. Injuring himself using his power like that seems to be a pretty clear "this is why wizards use staves" callout. But the shady cultist women looking for him (combined with lingering on the idea of his being good or not) makes it lean more in the "it's Sauron" direction. That could just be because of preconceptions I have based on the trailer, though...which could very well still be serving as a red herring.

  10. #5610
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    I do like that they're keeping meteor man ambiguous. Injuring himself using his power like that seems to be a pretty clear "this is why wizards use staves" callout. But the shady cultist women looking for him (combined with lingering on the idea of his being good or not) makes it lean more in the "it's Sauron" direction. That could just be because of preconceptions I have based on the trailer, though...which could very well still be serving as a red herring.
    I think thats subjective I personally am not a fan on how meteor man has been kept in the background for so long, the trailers made it look like he'd be one of the main fixtures, but he really is a lesser character. Maybe thats to make his reveal more impactful when it happens and maybe too much fixture on him will give him away too early who knows.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  11. #5611
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I think thats subjective I personally am not a fan on how meteor man has been kept in the background for so long, the trailers made it look like he'd be one of the main fixtures, but he really is a lesser character. Maybe thats to make his reveal more impactful when it happens and maybe too much fixture on him will give him away too early who knows.
    At this point I don't even care who he is. Whoever he is I'm certain it will piss me off. The whole story around mithril is just another contrived narrative that I don't care about. Especially if they're going to tie it to the elves and their immortality or some other bullshit. These people can't tell a cohesive story and that's what's even more annoying about this show. I will watch the first season to the end because I am mildly intrigued by what they're trying to do here.

    It's quite obvious they have some kind of plan to tie everything up but I'm not getting convinced it will be any better than all the steaming piles of crap they fabricate every episode.
    "In real life, unlike in Shakespeare, the sweetness of the rose depends upon the name it bears. Things are not only what they are. They are, in very important respects, what they seem to be"

    End of quote. Repeat the line.

  12. #5612
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    but he really is a lesser character
    For now. I don't mind them not just coming out with "alright fuckers, here's [Sauron/Gandalf/misc wizard]!" if their plans are to have the show go on for a few seasons. He was important enough that his crashing to earth was seen by everyone (even if they didn't know what it meant) so I would be incredibly surprised if he just winds up as some supporting character.

    Or it could just be that they've bit off more than they can chew, and started out with a story that's got too many moving parts instead of focusing on just a couple of relatively simple things at a time. /shrug

  13. #5613
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    For now. I don't mind them not just coming out with "alright fuckers, here's [Sauron/Gandalf/misc wizard]!" if their plans are to have the show go on for a few seasons. He was important enough that his crashing to earth was seen by everyone (even if they didn't know what it meant) so I would be incredibly surprised if he just winds up as some supporting character.

    Or it could just be that they've bit off more than they can chew, and started out with a story that's got too many moving parts instead of focusing on just a couple of relatively simple things at a time. /shrug
    I can see this show having potential to be something a lot better with some good editing and trimming of the fat. Can't say much about some of the obviously questionable writing and acting, but the pacing could certainly be improved.

  14. #5614
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    the two biggest issues with this show for me are the dialogue and pacing. I said a week or two ago, the pace of this show is moving both too slow and too fast at the same time. character development is terrible and under developed and needs more time. While the plot is moving too fast and people are moving way too quickly, I get the feeling if these people made LotR the movie it would be over in one movie with us knowing nothing about any of the characters and not staying in one place for more than 5 minutes :P
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  15. #5615
    Watched the full episode.

    Elrond and Durin's scenes still hold strong, carrying this show by far. The twists are a bit dramatic and I'm still hesitant on whether it works for me, but it seems like a good motivation to push their story forward and give a reason to keep digging deep. These two characters really make it work.

    And that said, I can't believe how greatly contrasted this is to Galadriel's arc, where I really can't get into any of the characters. None of them are likeable or relateable to me. None of their actions or reactions make sense. Like everyone seems so easy for Galadriel to convince people that there's no real feeling of tension. It's like this show is Karen wishfulfillment, where 'talking to the manager' magically gets you what you want. Her arc is literally just a series of inconveniences that get conveniently resolved within the same episodes. And it's been this way for this arc from the start, which is really annoying.

    I enjoy the Harfoot arc much more now. The montage of their travels was great. I think the characters are still likeable, the Stranger much more so now that he can speak some words, but still have to see where they take the arc. It's moving way too slowly for me. Can't say I care too much about the mysteries they're setting up, it's too disconnected. They're just layering stuff without explaining, and I'm starting to lose interest because it's all dedicated to a C or D plot at this point. The show is really like 3-4 different series slapped together and it's hard to get into that.

    And overall, I have nothing much to say about the Watchtower arc other than to say it exists. I still think this whole arc could be cut, it's not doing anything for me and it really feels contrived knowing it only exists to show a battle scene that otherwise wouldn't fit in any other POV arc.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-23 at 04:46 PM.

  16. #5616
    Meteor man needs to be an evil guy now according to me. Fire brings no heat, he's cooling the water and it creates frost in the same way it did in the tower in the north. Cultists are looking for him (though at first I thought it could be either way, help him or destroy him)...
    If they swing this around into a being a good wizard it will feel so forced and clearly written to misdirect the audience... It's one of these cases where you make it obvious, so people don't think it's that, but it's more rewarding if it actually is than a switcheroo.
    At this point it could even be Sauron and he's already tricking the harfoots. But I doubt it. Could be a pre-corrupted Saruman.

    Why Nori didn't scream in pain when her hand got frozen looked silly. Just a small wince.
    Just a small thing for fun. You can actually see where her real arm becomes a CGI hand because that edge moves like it's a hard edge. Freezing effect looked good, so just popped out to me. No big deal.

    I wish they used more of the money on fight choreography. I don't think it looks convincing or good, especially the first twist move she did. The outcome was expected, she should obviously demolish everyone there with ease.

    Found it odd however that she would "beg" (demand) the queen to follow her and fight her war and she mocks the skill of those who volunteered. Be grateful for once, please.

    Did anyone feel any emotion during the Galadriel / Halbrand scene where they talked about motivations? Halbrand I can understand being reluctant, but can't buy that she managed to convince him tbh. And Galadriel mischaracterize Elrond and Gil-Galad intentions just makes her look bad. Even if they were in the right or wrong, they clearly had her in mind and did what they thought was best for her. Saying "they conspired against me" in the context she used it makes it sound like it's malicious intent behind it all. Especially after lining it up after the "Mutiny against me" bit. Obviously leaving out her behavior and contexts (which would probably be too long for a speech like this, but then don't do it).
    Her story sounds like how someone would twist events into being the victim. Which now when I think about it, seem to be a common tactic for her.
    At this point I have to assume that the writers want her to be unlikeable and actually be this bad of a person... because I can't see how anyone would see how she acts and think she is a good person just "missunderstood" or "needs to grow as a person". This is just manipulative. Especially when she tried to twist it into Halbrand using her...
    Even with the final smile and handshake with Halbrand all I can think isn't that it's a positive thing, from everything that have happened so far it just looks like "Fuck yeah, got my way again".

    Durin and Elrond is indeed the better part. Elrond starts to grow on me more and more, I still find the dialogue to be a bit pretentious but when Durin just came out saying "Stop with the quail sauce" I kinda laughed. It kind of makes sense that Elrond is a bit pretentious being a poet and an Elf to boot. So at least it starts to feel more genuine rather than the showrunners trying to sound intelligent themselves like it did at the start of the show.

    I don't get what's happening to the mithril though, that looked so gorgeous in the first scenes when Durin holds it, then it turned quite bad when Elrond took it from him. And now Celebrimbor says he "Tested it under every duress, Nothing diminishes it's light". Yet when Elrond holds it it isn't shining or emit any light whatsoever... it is diminished. It might look like a minor thing, but this is a big deal for Mithril, clearly as the show portrays it in words and the backstory of it. Things like this make it feel like the show doesn't even care about the important points they access.
    Maybe I'm going crazy over this Mithril thing...

    Tower bit I'm still a bit eh on... I half expected Halbrand to be somewhere in the crowd of the defected because it cut to them when he started talking about his past and what they did. I guess it's just a parallel but I think it would be kinda cool if the tower plot was actually just a couple of days or weeks. So even if all plots started the same, they have traversed at different speeds where all other arcs have transpired over months (based on the tower/forge progression) while this arc only been 1-2 weeks. Halbrand would've have run away from this group. Then again where he ended up is quite far away from the Southlands so it probably wouldn't make much sense anyway, but that's what my mind went through when they did the parallel.

    This episode could be the end of a season episode with that ending. So hopefully the 3 next ones will resolve at least some of the arcs or, resolve might be the wrong word, but develop them with at least some answers to the question they raise.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-23 at 06:25 PM.

  17. #5617
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Did anyone feel any emotion during the Galadriel / Halbrand scene where they talked about motivations? Halbrand I can understand being reluctant, but can't buy that she managed to convince him tbh. And Galadriel mischaracterize Elrond and Gil-Galad intentions just makes her look bad. Even if they were in the right or wrong, they clearly had her in mind and did what they thought was best for her. Saying "they conspired against me" in the context she used it makes it sound like it's malicious intent behind it all. Especially after lining it up after the "Mutiny against me" bit. Obviously leaving out her behavior and contexts (which would probably be too long for a speech like this, but then don't do it).
    Her story sounds like how someone would twist events into being the victim. Which now when I think about it, seem to be a common tactic for her.
    At this point I have to assume that the writers want her to be unlikeable and actually be this bad of a person... because I can't see how anyone would see how she acts and think she is just "missunderstood" or "needs to grow as a person". This is just manipulative. Especially when she tried to twist it into Halbrand using her...
    Even with the final smile and handshake with Halbrand all I can think isn't that it's a positive thing, from everything that have happened so far it just looks like "Fuck yeah, got my way again".
    That would require me to feel anything for any scene she has been in. I do not know what the creators are playing at when it comes to her character. She's the only character I literally dislike in the show, I can get past some of the casts horrible direction through bad dialogue, which there are a few, but Galadriel is just so damn dislikeable, I gave her benefit of the doubt after the first two episodes, but with every episode she is coming across more and more unbearable.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  18. #5618
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    That would require me to feel anything for any scene she has been in. I do not know what the creators are playing at when it comes to her character. She's the only character I literally dislike in the show, I can get past some of the casts horrible direction through bad dialogue, which there are a few, but Galadriel is just so damn dislikeable, I gave her benefit of the doubt after the first two episodes, but with every episode she is coming across more and more unbearable.
    At this point they could do a "It isn't the real Galadriel, She's in another castle" and I would just go "HOLY FUCK, THANK GOD!".

  19. #5619
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    At this point they could do a "It isn't the real Galadriel, She's in another castle" and I would just go "HOLY FUCK, THANK GOD!".
    Galadriel is Sauron. It all makes sense now :P
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  20. #5620
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Galadriel is Sauron. It all makes sense now :P
    Was thinking about making that comment myself... but then I realized Sauron would get people to actually like him.

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