1. #5641
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Absolutely absurd thing to even say. I want to like it because I like the source material. I want to enjoy because I want to look beyond external criticisms of the show that have no barring on my own liking of it. I want to like it because its objectively one of the most expensive fantasy productions of all time and has beautiful imagery if nothing else.

    I want to like it and give it a fair try despite all of the above. But the show has so many deep flaws it makes that difficult to enjoy.

    To throw how stupid your post is back at you. If you don't like my comment then why even bother to reply?
    I feel there's always a point when clinging to a show/movie I don't like doesn't make sense anymore. For me that point is after about two episodes of a show. If I don't like the first 2 hours it doesn't make sense to me to invest 8 more. I would definitely not watch a fifth hour after disliking the first 4 hours.

    But I guess everyone is different. Some will watch the next episode on the basis of mere hope. Hope is never mere, even when it is meager. When all other senses sleep, the eye of hope is first to awaken, last to shut.

  2. #5642
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Really enjoyed the episode. Visually it's so far ahead of HotD, it's not even funny.
    I would hope so, the show has a massive budget, if the visuals were not up to par I'd ask where they put that money. lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Why would you even try to force yourself to like something? If you're not enjoying it...don't watch it.
    Because there is still things to like, I am not one of these absolute haters. Only if I hated something absolutely would i then stop watching. Also let's not forget I started out defending this show before it came out and even at the start of the first two episodes, because yes, there was a lot of undeserved hate.

    One of the things I do love about the show is its visuals and its score, and when the dialogue isn't bad I love the Elrond and Durin scenes. But there is only so much I can praise stuff that's consistent throughout when more awful things pile up with every additional episode. I still love the show enough to keep watching, and even if I didn't, I still wanna see the rest to the season to be able to make a solid review.

    I am getting Wheel of Time frustration at this point, the more the episodes go on the more of a slog it is to get through. But there is stuff to enjoy. I may end up liking RoP more than Wheel of Time, but both are guilty of similar negative things :P

    IF the show really does become bad by the end (and I am hoping it doesn't because I want to like it), then it will join Witcher and Wheel of Time in shows which make me not want to watch season 2 because I didn't like it.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-24 at 07:46 AM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  3. #5643
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Why would you even try to force yourself to like something? If you're not enjoying it...don't watch it.
    Let's get this straight - we're all fans of Tolkien's work here, whether it's indirectly and through external media and adaptations like the games or movies based on his work, or the canon itself. And as fans, everyone wants to like the latest big new tv series that's based on material that we all love. It's just a sad fact that the show isn't as good as we think it should be. It's not at the level of quality that its predecessors had set the bar at. And through discussion, it seems like it has the potential to be good, it's just mired by a lot of really basic problems that we're all hoping could be improved upon in subsequent seasons.

    And hopefully, there will be enough material that some talented fans out there could make a full-season edit that cuts down some of the bloat and fixes the pacing so it's more tolerable than the slow pacing the show is at right now. Cuz not everyone enjoys having their standards lowered in order to enjoy a series, as I'm personally finding myself to do. For all the things bad about the show, it still has great visuals and some pretty enjoyable plot lines like Elrond and the Dwarves.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-24 at 07:40 AM.

  4. #5644
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    full-season edit that cuts down some of the bloat and fixes the pacing so it's more tolerable than the slow pacing the show is at right now.
    For me personally slow pacing is part of Middle-earth. In the LotR novels Tolkien sometimes spent 20 pages describing a bunch of Elves singing in the woods. I like that if well done.

    Btw, I also enjoy Elrond and the dwarves storyline. Imo Robert Aramayo does not look like I imagined young Elrond at all, but his acting is great and his chemistry with Durin. Contrary to that for me Morfydd Clark absolutely looks like Galadriel, but her acting doesn't convince me.

  5. #5645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    In vain hopes of the show improving itself over time?
    There was never much hope, just a fools hope...


    sorry couldn't resist :P
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-24 at 08:42 AM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  6. #5646
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    This gatekeeping bullshit is always hilarious. Tolkien's work can be both an important part of the cultural heritage of The West™ and adapted into a franchise. If you want his work to be relevant as anything more than assigned reading in high school, franchises are how that happens. Especially since it's not public domain (and I doubt it ever would be, given how tight a grip people are keeping on the rights).

    LOL I guess we better start the Charles Dickens Universe franchise right now. Wow. Pure ignorance. You realise LOTR had huge cultural influence for decades before it became a movie, right? Oof, I also better tell the hundreds of students who discovered the novel through my teaching that I was gatekeeping this whole time...

  7. #5647
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iheartnathanos View Post
    LOL I guess we better start the Charles Dickens Universe franchise right now. Wow. Pure ignorance. You realise LOTR had huge cultural influence for decades before it became a movie, right? Oof, I also better tell the hundreds of students who discovered the novel through my teaching that I was gatekeeping this whole time...
    Who doesn't want to see a Ghost of Future Past solo origin movie? What about a 'Young Scrooge High School Musical' starring Zac Efron as Scrooge.

    YEe this is the type of thing corps want for popular things these days, if it makes money they wanna make more money. Its why I no longer watch the MCU or Star Wars, its just become too corporate now there just no passion or love there, its just so corperate way to milk money out of you. I don't care how good this Andor shit is I aint watching or it.

    I do not want to see the Blue Wizards solo adventures. Or 'Adventures of the Shire' a soap opera... see I am coming up with this shit so easily, you think corporations are not clapping their greedy fingers together for this too?
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-24 at 09:40 AM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  8. #5648
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Who doesn't want to see a Ghost of Future Past solo origin movie? What about a 'scrooge high school musical' starring Zac Efron as Scrooge.
    Yesss can't wait for the Oliver and Copperfield team-up.

  9. #5649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iheartnathanos View Post
    Yesss can't wait for the Oliver and Copperfield team-up.
    Just wait until the multiverse scrooge saga, where all the scrooges from movies past meet up again, although most of them are dead, but fuck the dead, thanks to digital animation we can animate their corpses and have them dance around like puppets... (eww I feel icky knowing this is exactly how corps think too)

    I often find myself feeling like Malcom in that Jurassic park scene, except replace their talk on dinosaurs with expanding franchises for greed
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-24 at 09:54 AM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  10. #5650
    Watched the latest epsiode.. i'd have loved to love this show, because i'ts so pretty and cinematic.. but there is not that much of substance after that sadly.

    Galadriel is still just not Galadriesl
    elves are totally ruine and don't even look elven - why does Celembrimbor look like an old man?

    it lacks the air of quality that the original movies had

    It's written by people who don't really understand Tolkein's work, either that or don't care about it since they've obviously changed everything - so now the Elves are fading, and they need dwarven jewels to restore their immortality - ? seems the sort of tale I'd expect from Warcraft, not from Tolkien's world.

  11. #5651
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Watched the latest epsiode.. i'd have loved to love this show, because i'ts so pretty and cinematic.. but there is not that much of substance after that sadly.

    Galadriel is still just not Galadriesl
    elves are totally ruine and don't even look elven - why does Celembrimbor look like an old man?

    it lacks the air of quality that the original movies had

    It's written by people who don't really understand Tolkein's work, either that or don't care about it since they've obviously changed everything - so now the Elves are fading, and they need dwarven jewels to restore their immortality - ? seems the sort of tale I'd expect from Warcraft, not from Tolkien's world.
    The series does have elves looking most like elves should though, if its not what you expected because of how media portrays them.. not their fault.

    Galadriel is the most cannon of all the characters if you compare to the lore.

  12. #5652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    The series does have elves looking most like elves should though, if its not what you expected because of how media portrays them.. not their fault.

    Galadriel is the most cannon of all the characters if you compare to the lore.
    I didn't saw a single elf that look like an elf in this series, its not about "how media portrays then" its how Tolkien portrays then, because those media copy tolkien description in the first place

    The elves look like humans and some of then are either too ugly or too old to actually be tolkien elves, Celebrimbor look like this guy:


    and he is supposed to be younger than Galadriel

    Galadriel somehow could look elvish, if she was less insufferable, but i don't think the actress - while very pretty - fit to be Galadriel.

  13. #5653
    Quote Originally Posted by Iheartnathanos View Post
    LOL I guess we better start the Charles Dickens Universe franchise right now. Wow. Pure ignorance. You realise LOTR had huge cultural influence for decades before it became a movie, right? Oof, I also better tell the hundreds of students who discovered the novel through my teaching that I was gatekeeping this whole time...
    There have been plenty of movies and shows based on Dickens's work. What was the last one you cared to see? What was the last one you posted about on a forum?

    People care about (or at least pretend to for the sake of culture war outrage bait) LotR stuff precisely because so much money has been pumped into the movie franchise, and continues to be pumped into projects like this. You may not like that, but your feelings don't dictate reality. Sorry.

    And again, the movies and shows have nothing to do with the cultural impact the works they're based on may or may not have had before they came out.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-09-24 at 11:28 AM.

  14. #5654
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    I don't think that's true. They featured shots of the full moon pretty prominently. Meteor man was staring at it. Elrond looks up at it after Gil-Galad tells him about the fading/corruption. And it was hidden in the clouds when Bronwyn and Arondir look up at the tower. The only location where it seemed to be conspicuously absent was Numenor (when the shot pans down from the stars onto the soldiers partying).
    That whole montage, and alternating scenes between half the southern people submiting to the orcs, and Halbrand talking about what he had done to survive made it seem like he 'was' present at it, giving the impression that was the 'past'.

    But i might just have gotten the wrong impression

  15. #5655
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    The series does have elves looking most like elves should though, if its not what you expected because of how media portrays them.. not their fault.

    Galadriel is the most cannon of all the characters if you compare to the lore.
    It's the stuff they make up that doesn't match the spirit and feel that Tolkien wrote for the elves, and by extension Galadriel

    The envisioning of Galadriel in the movies,just feels a lot better - than a very humanised, rage teen girl-man Galadriel this show presents.

    Because this show and it's showrunners have injected both their politics and ideology into the show, -you just need to watch the two, and see the total disconnected between RoP and LoTR and the gap in quality

    nuff said - despite all the pretty pictures.



    If you prefer vulnerable elves that operate more like humans and behave like idiots, with a lore about them that contradicts the ethos of the race and the world - then go ahead an d love it.. it's not Tolkien's work clearly, and it isn't faithful to it for sure.


    It's an adaptation of the world that is more a copting, still it could have been nice and enjoyable, which it is to a fair extent, but I wouldn't feel it is anywhere near the grade of quality as Tolkien it feel almost insulting to call itself that. i am saying this despite watching it and being fairly entertained..

    i'm not crazy about it, and I definitely don't think it's the quality of either book or film, the films made me love the product and the books/world even more, this series, is just mindless entertainment, you watch it, it's got bright and sparkly lights that are pretty to watch, but no where near the quality of the works it claims to based on.

    Remember Tolkien had no pretty graphics, art or music at all, the pull, attraction and quality of the work is all in the writing, the story, the plot, the setting he paints and the world he builds - this is what they've tossed aside, failed to adhere to or stick to, and decided to inject their world views and ideology into, and ti's no where nere as good as the original.

    They could have still been a bit lame and stuck to the original, i would have liked it more, but they'd have needed a better story and story tellers and closer adherence and understanding of Tolkien's work. Willing to stick to that rather than re-interpret it through the lens of their own ideology.

  16. #5656
    Quote Originally Posted by Iheartnathanos View Post
    Treating Tolkien as a 'franchise' and not an important part of the cultural heritage of the West and a work of art is the issue.
    Not respecting the lore as being a defining hallmark of what makes Tolkien distinct is the issue. It is like any other IP that is watered down, altered and distorted because some studio gave money to people who don't know or don't care about the lore and just want to put their own spin on something regardless of what it is. And it is that history of studios trying to make franchises out of existing IPs that are not well executed, resulting in terrible reviews and opinions from fans of the IP is the issue.

    Westerns are westerns because they have certain elements that define the genre and cannot exist without them.
    Karate Movies are karate movies for the same reason, along with other genres of fiction.

    Historically these kinds of genres were easily translated into movies because they understood what made these genres work.

    But for some reason today's Hollywood doesn't care enough to do the least bit of research on any IP to understand what makes it work so they can hew close to it even if they take some liberties. And that is the biggest problem.

    For some reason Japanese anime and manga have been better able to capture the essence of MMOs and High Fantasy far better than anything in the West even though the whole concept came from the west. So it is definitely more of a respect of the lore and understanding of the genre more than anything else. Not to mention many western studios are so concerned about other 'messages' that they feel are more important than traditional story telling and character development.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-24 at 01:11 PM.

  17. #5657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iheartnathanos View Post
    LOL I guess we better start the Charles Dickens Universe franchise right now.
    https://www.imdb.com/list/ls006348409/

    You mean what has already happened? Adaptations bring awareness. Good or bad. Video games bring awareness good or bad. It helps to introduce people to the work even if they go no further then the derivative. So do go further. If the goal is to introduce a person to influential work then you don't gate keep them along their journey to that work. If a student says they really enjoyed Shadows of Mordor you don't say they aren't a true fan because it isn't real Tolkien, right? It is about the approach you take.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Not respecting the lore as being a defining hallmark of what makes Tolkien distinct is the issue.
    Which isn't relevant to this discussion since Rings of Power does respect the defining hallmarks of Tolkien. It just doesn't do a 1:1 copy which isn't required for derivatives. Remember we got Romeo and Juliet with guns which was acclaimed for it being influential at the time to relate it to modern times. The movie wasn't great over all but it still had an impact and still honored Shakespeare. What about West Side story? Changed stuff but won multiple awards.

    According to your argument it wouldn't be Shakespeare because it changed so much, right? Or is it that "What makes something" a nebulous every shifting concept that is used just to gate keep and hate?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  18. #5658
    Sad to think within the same time frame we would be through Fellowship and well into Two Towers both extended editions. Add in the bad dialogue (wtf was that Durin line about meat and wanting it raw????), the awful fighting choreography (like they didn't even swing at Galadriel 90% of the time, and the one guy literally just handed his sword over to her), and continuously disappointing characters means this episode again left me feeling let down, even with expecting less at this point.

    Now we have Elves fading because of a tree dying??? No, elves are always fading in middle earth as they are away from the undying lands, and the rings allow them to extend their stay, but fading is always occurring. Also every time I see Celebrimbor I wince, this old dude that is younger than Galadriel who in Tolkien cannon is dwarf friend (and also you know, helped build the west gate of Khazad-dum) is supposed to be the guy who crafts the rings? So much for the last linage of the house of Feanor.

    Honestly at this point I will finish the season just to get some schadenfreude from the train wreck this show has become. I bet we don't any important events this season, no fall of numenor, no Balrog in Khazad-dum (which we shouldn't, as this happens thousands of years into the 3rd age), not even the rings being made.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  19. #5659
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    That whole montage, and alternating scenes between half the southern people submiting to the orcs, and Halbrand talking about what he had done to survive made it seem like he 'was' present at it, giving the impression that was the 'past'.

    But i might just have gotten the wrong impression
    I got the same feeling… perhaps they’re pulling a witcher where not all the stories run in the same time line…

  20. #5660
    You see there is a difference between changing lore and expanding lore.. even though some sticklers insist the latter is the former.. for me, expansion is fine.. as long as you keep the core and dont' change the spirit.

    THe hobbit expanded a lot of lore in those 3 movies, those expansions were fine, some even nice, they certainly fit within the lore, and the disappointment about the Hobbit was not as much what it expanded as opposed to how some elements were presented, still it had the air of the original movies, just not quite the finesse.. almost like they were a lot more careless on this one or not as hungry or desperate for it to be a master piece.

    still, it was miles better than Rings of Power who actually changes the lore, and not in a nice way.. sure it's not terrible, but it ruins the fantasy and the feel of Lord of the rings. The elves are cheapened, Galadriael comes off very unlikeable, no stately grace you would expect of an immortal and one that clearly is leadership material.

    She is written more like an angry lad, or a lesbian's idea of what a tough chick should be, which would be finde if that was the original character, or the elves were like that, but it's not the original character. And while there are lots of holes to fills that ou can make up all kinds of stuff, there are certain things you shouldn't do because they change too much.

    Like the HIGH elves, the HIGH elves losing their light randomly, and then needing and willing to swindle or deceive dwarves to get it - that's not high elf like, and it's lore-ruinous route to take even though by itself it's not a bad story, even an interesting one, but it doesn't ffit Tolkien elves, it more fits Warcraft elves or Warhammer elves where their creators use adjectives to describe a race they don't really understand because they don't understand of haven't thought well enough w hat Wise, immortal and fair actually means.

    I also do not expect an immortal race to look lik an old man nor the grace of the Eldar in Valinor, witht he Valar, have children behave so despicable -it feels more like humans not elves, and obvious attempt to create some sort of complex in Galadraiel to explain why she turns out into this very un-Tolkien Galadriel, - while the visioning of Galadriel will be cool on it's own as a different character and a different race - it is not cool as Galadriel from the novels, especially after seeing such a portrayal in the movies.

    They were way off, the way they wrote her, they should have made her a Numenroean , not an elf, and elves should have been secondary characters like they are in LotR and the Hobbits

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Sad to think within the same time frame we would be through Fellowship and well into Two Towers both extended editions. Add in the bad dialogue (wtf was that Durin line about meat and wanting it raw????), the awful fighting choreography (like they didn't even swing at Galadriel 90% of the time, and the one guy literally just handed his sword over to her), and continuously disappointing characters means this episode again left me feeling let down, even with expecting less at this point.

    Now we have Elves fading because of a tree dying??? No, elves are always fading in middle earth as they are away from the undying lands, and the rings allow them to extend their stay, but fading is always occurring. Also every time I see Celebrimbor I wince, this old dude that is younger than Galadriel who in Tolkien cannon is dwarf friend (and also you know, helped build the west gate of Khazad-dum) is supposed to be the guy who crafts the rings? So much for the last linage of the house of Feanor.

    Honestly at this point I will finish the season just to get some schadenfreude from the train wreck this show has become. I bet we don't any important events this season, no fall of numenor, no Balrog in Khazad-dum (which we shouldn't, as this happens thousands of years into the 3rd age), not even the rings being made.
    I know right.. they changed the lore, without understanding who they were changing (or understanding, and just not caring, but pressing on to do what they want - why? because they either have a message to preach or they think they're just better) - that's not how the elves of Tolkien would have been like or reacted - if you are going to make up new stuff for in between the lines of his work, the least you should be is consistent to that work so it believably passes off as Tolkien's Lord of the rings world.

    I feel this is an alternate fantasy, for lord of the Rings, it's bad fan fic and subversive - ideology and views injected into someone else's work, makes it not based on the person's work but an alternative version of their world basically riding on it's coat tails to put your own stuff out.


    In and of it self, it's not a bad anything, but it's more on the level of a warcraft or warhammer - not on the level of Lord of the Rings, which it boldly claims to be.

    The elves just don't feel like elves, they don't come across as wise, regal, immortal, gallant nor gorgeous -t hey come off as merely pretty humans , lacking any more insight than their lessers - this is because the writers themselves can only write to their own limitations.

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