Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Nurasu]

See this to me is funny, because calling out tokenism/insertion of a specific race into a scene/book they weren't is hyperfixation, but the showrunners always feeling the need to insert a token minority in a few spots isn't?

Where did you come up with the assertion that they were cast for their skin color? With a cast that large, it makes sense there would be minorities included naturally for their talent, no?

[Dhrizzle]

Everyone knows that the way skin color works is that people are just randomly born with certain skin colors.

The problem is tokenism. It doesnt seem he (or the dwarf) are from another group of dwarves or elves that are none-white, rather, they just randomly are.

If they want to claim they're all for diversity they need to actually commit to it rather than putting in token characters and going "PRAISE US". Its the same as pride month when you suddenlly see rainbow stuff everywhere but only pride month.

Hell Walmart got in a bit for something like this recently: They were playing music from black musicians during black history month. And only black history month.

They stopped doing it in less than a week due to the backlash. Didnt help they were only playing older music at that.

How many actors of colour do they need to cast to escape your assessment of tokenism, is it an absolute number or as a percentage of the cast? Will you be counting on a per-episode basis or waiting until you have seen the whole series?

[guisadop]

I'm glad I'm a bookfag, hehe. the original movie trilogy is also 'meh'

[Dhrizzle]

See this to me is funny, because calling out tokenism/insertion of a specific race into a scene/book they weren't is hyperfixation, but the showrunners always feeling the need to insert a token minority in a few spots isn't?

Do you think non-white actors would be unable to land roles without producers going for tokenism?

[bledgor]

Where did you come up with the assertion that they were cast for their skin color? With a cast that large, it makes sense there would be minorities included naturally for their talent, no?

You are also assuming this, if they were, why not cast them as humans, where the skin color could easily be overlooked, but no instead you cast them in roles YOU KNOW will spark anger and frustration as it goes against established lore?

That is the issue, they have several places and ways they could have made the skin color a non-factor, but they didn't take them. There are regions of the world where there are dark skinned individuals in Tolkein's world, but the elves/dwarfs weren't that place. THAT is the issue.

Do you think non-white actors would be unable to land roles without producers going for tokenism?

Do you think that every story should have a racial diversity of the US? Do we need rewrite Black Panther to have a majority whites? Do Asian stories need to go from 1-2 non Asians to something else? Which country gets to decide the representation? US, China, Britain, Russia? Which minorities do we HAVE to add (I didn't see any Asians, middle eastern, Spanish,etc minorities in the trailer/stills) and which are okay to let hang dry?

Also you notice they heavily featured that they have black people, but what about the Asians, the middle eastern, and other ethnicities? Not good enough to meet the quota I guess? Not special enough to warrant them getting a dwarf/elf appearance? Also notice there only seems to be one elf, and one dwarf, guess they didn't warrant a tribe, because then they would have to answer the awkward question of how every species purged all but the white members of their races by the time of the LotR.

How about you take the stories that features minorities and produce them, and stop rewriting works that don't and forcing it in. Or if you feel the need how about you tell the stories within the universe that feature said minorities race, like the Haradrim in Tolkein's work, but no, they didn't. They shoe horned it in, they added it in places it wasn't instead of putting it in the place that does, where we could have had a fantastic back piece about how/why the Haradrim took the side of Sauron. Would people still have complained, sure, but it would have been A LOT more accepted, and if done right the masses would have taken to it.

[Nerovar]

Because it literally doesn't matter. An elf is an elf is an elf. If you can suspend your disbelief to imagine you're looking at a fictional humanoid fantasy race but can't extend that an iota further to the actor's skin color...

I get that elves are supposed to be superior, so of course they have to be white, but oh actually they don't.

And who exactly are you to say that it doesn't matter? Why should the appearance of the ethnic groups that inspired the roots of the setting not be an important part? Why did Tolkien go out of his way to describe the peoples living in this Middle-Earth in great detail if it doesn't matter? Don't you realize that a large part of Tolkien's work went into creating a genuine historical context in order to give meaning and gravity to the world that he created for his languages?

If you want to write a tale of this sort you must consult your roots, and a man of the North-west of the Old World will set his heart and the action of his tale in an imaginary world of that air, and that situation

These vulgar demands that the ethnic makeup of Tolkien's world must correspond to the reality of modern countries is very much incompatible with his world building and his outlook in general. Tolkien vehemently opposes the view that things can or should be separated from their history in order to make it a universal rule. That is the territory of modernists which Tolkien rejected pretty profusely.

Tolkien was convinced, moreover, that languages and cultures are inextricably rooted in time and place, that geography is hugely determinative of the way people think and act, that human variety is tied to the knotty particulars of culture, that a people's first products are its myths and stories, and that these narratives are the essential carriers of both religion and morality. He lamented, therefor the ruthless monoculturalism of the Romans in failing to preserve the Northern European cultures that they had conquered. Not for Tolkien, it follows, was the Enlightenment-inspired desire to transcend locality for the sake of wooly universal values.
(The Gift of Story: Narrating Hope in a Postmodern World)

[Nurasu]

And who exactly are you to say that it doesn't matter? Why should the appearance of the ethnic groups that inspired the roots of the setting not be an important part? Why did Tolkien go out of his way to describe the people living in this Middle-Earth in great detail if it doesn't matter? Don't you realize that a large part of Tolkien's work went into creating a genuine historical context in order to give meaning and gravity to the world that he created for his languages?

These vulgar demands that the ethnic makeup of Tolkien's world must correspond to the reality of modern countries is very much incompatible with his world building and his outlook in general. Tolkien vehemently opposes the view that things can or should be separated from their history in order to make it a universal rule. That is the territory of modernists which Tolkien rejected pretty profusely.

Why don't they cast elves and dwarves with elves and dwarves instead of humans if it's such an important aspect to the story? Oh, it's a cinematic adaptation? How will you ever suspend your disbelief enough to get past the fact they're all just humans? As long as they're white you can do it?

[Specialka]

Why don't they cast elves and dwarves with elves and dwarves instead of humans if it's such an important aspect to the story? Oh, it's a cinematic adaptation? How will you ever suspend your disbelief enough to get past the fact they're all just humans? As long as they're white you can do it?

Why don't we do a new kiriku adaptation but with white people ? I wonder how that would go.

[Nerovar]

Why don't they cast elves and dwarves with elves and dwarves instead of humans if it's such an important aspect to the story? Oh, it's a cinematic adaptation? How will you ever suspend your disbelief enough to get past the fact they're all just humans? As long as they're white you can do it?

What a silly, infantile argument. Why do you think they use costumes and visual tricks to create an illusion that these people are indeed Elves, Hobbits and Dwarfs?

Tolkien argues, for example, that fairy-stories "cannot tolerate any frame or machinery suggesting that the whole story in which they occur is a figment or illusion" ("On Fairy-Stories" 45). Such devices create a skepticism that undermines the truthfulness of the entire fictional enterprise: "The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken" (60)

[Shadowferal]

Hmf...it's all about the script to me.

[Nerovar]

Hmf...it's all about the script to me.

As far as I can tell, it's all equally rotten.

The opening narration might as well have been for a new Star Wars or Marvel movie. You can't tell the different at this point. Pure simulacrum.

[tikcol]

Apart from the rampant tokenism bigotry they're also changing some major stuff like turning Galadriel into some kind of commander and introducing new characters. If there's anything the books don't lack are characters. Shortening the span of events so they all happen at the same time is also a dangerous thing to do. While not stated yet, I can also imagine they might just turn Elrond into some kind of a wimp for good measure.

Well, at this point it shouldn't be a secret. They already said they're going to tell the story Tolkien didn't tell. Which with all of these things combined will just turn out to be over-priced trashy fantasy. As if there's a shortage of those.

[Dhrizzle]

<snip - long, boring rant I've read a hundred times before>

So is that a yes? You think people of colour can only qualify for parts that are written around their ethnicity, and if it is decided that skintone doesn't matter the part would naturally go to white actors unless they are shoe-horned in for the sake of tokenism?

[Sluvs]

And who exactly are you to say that it doesn't matter? Why should the appearance of the ethnic groups that inspired the roots of the setting not be an important part? Why did Tolkien go out of his way to describe the peoples living in this Middle-Earth in great detail if it doesn't matter? Don't you realize that a large part of Tolkien's work went into creating a genuine historical context in order to give meaning and gravity to the world that he created for his languages?

These vulgar demands that the ethnic makeup of Tolkien's world must correspond to the reality of modern countries is very much incompatible with his world building and his outlook in general. Tolkien vehemently opposes the view that things can or should be separated from their history in order to make it a universal rule. That is the territory of modernists which Tolkien rejected pretty profusely.

Listen, I know that you think you are keeping the sanctity of the text by arguing this but in the end the only thing you are truly arguing for is the lack of representation for black people. You might think you are in a high horse, but it all boils down to: I don't want black elves. Which you have to agree, even in this case, is silly.

And while I can see where you coming from, you are currently trying to say that Tolkien would have hated this. While you might be right, you also might be very wrong. All of Tolkien talking points about culture in a broader sense, we might extrapolate what he would think but there was no discussion of representation in his time.

Instead of trying to puppeteer the dead to make a point, we should probably take the series for what it is: an adaptation. Changes happen, it is impossible to be 100% faithful to the material. E.G.: the lack the battle of the shire in the movies was heartbreaking for me. I think It could be an awesome way to end the movie, and it is WAY more plot relevant than black elves existing.

If I was an author, I would be WAY more pissed if they changed the plot, than if they included a black character where there was none.

People are posting quotes and whatnot, believing that they are making a grand stand. But, IMHO, they are just against black elves and black dwarves. And that seems like a crappy point to me.

At this point, the series is bound to be underwhelming, no matter how good or bad it is. The hype so gigantic, the outrage so enormous... The jury is already out. Which I think it is a shame.

If people could look past the lack of Tom Bombadil, the lack of the battle of the shire and the inumerous inconsistencies of the hobbit, surely they could look past a black elf. It is just a shame that they choose not to do it.

The series should be judged by itself, instead it is being judged based on nothing but casting.

This generational war is tiresome and pointless.

[bledgor]

<snip - basic I don't care about logic, consistency, or anything but race argument.

So glad you admit you are racist and only care/focus on race, not on logic, nor consistency or author's intent, or anything else for that matter (and only for blacks, who cares about those other minorities). You just want shoe horned tokenism so you can feel better.

...

You also have to consider, by adding them they now have two important questions to answer or they are forcing us to not think, which I always hate in anything but a mindless action movie. Those two questions are where did they come from, and where did they go.

While the former can be answered in ways not to bad, the latter it requires a genocide or a convenient "they all just decided to leave" around the same time, which is a shitty explanation (unless there are literally only 1 dwarf and 1 elf, then it is just bad tokenism).

When reading fantasy I at least one logical consistency and things like this take me out of the story, which is a big no no to me. If instead they just had the Haradrim story introduced, I would have been completely open to it.

[Nerovar]

Listen, I know that you think you are keeping the sanctity of the text by arguing this but in the end the only thing you are truly arguing for is the lack of representation for black people. You might think you are in a high horse, but it all boils down to: I don't want black elves. Which you have to agree, even in this case, is silly.

And while I can see where you coming from, you are currently trying to say that Tolkien would have hated this. While you might be right, you also might be very wrong. All of Tolkien talking points about culture in a broader sense, we might extrapolate what he would think but there was no discussion of representation in his time.

Instead of trying to puppeteer the dead to make a point, we should probably take the series for what it is: an adaptation. Changes happen, it is impossible to be 100% faithful to the material. E.G.: the lack the battle of the shire in the movies was heartbreaking for me. I think It could be an awesome way to end the movie, and it is WAY more plot relevant than black elves existing.

If I was an author, I would be WAY more pissed if they changed the plot, than if they included a black character where there was none.

People are posting quotes and whatnot, believing that they are making a grand stand. But, IMHO, they are just against black elves and black dwarves. And that seems like a crappy point to me.

At this point, the series is bound to be underwhelming, no matter how good or bad it is. The hype so gigantic, the outrage so enormous... The jury is already out. Which I think it is a shame.

If people could look past the lack of Tom Bombadil, the lack of the battle of the shire and the inumerous inconsistencies of the hobbit, surely they could look past a black elf. It is just a shame that they choose not to do it.

The series should be judged by itself, instead it is being judged based on nothing but casting.

This generational war is tiresome and pointless.

I don't understand this argument. You are basically saying that I cannot criticize one adaptation because another adaptation also had flaws. Does one bad thing cancel out another bad thing? What is the purpose of these cheap apologetics? Do you honestly think that I would go through the effort of posting all of these quotes from Tolkien and Tolkien scholars just because I don't want to see minorities represented in media? If that is the case and you seriously ascribe that position to me, then there really is no need to argue about this because you have already determined my position to be in bad faith.

[Rageonit]

Honestly, this makes me cheer for Sauron, Orcs n the forces of evil, at least they make sense, so plz kill all the humies dworfs n elfs

Man, why would you waste your time watching something like THIS? Any by this, I mean the commentary. The guy doesn't say a single interesting thing. It boils down to: "My god, looks so bad, so cheap, this is shit, my god", plus repeating the most trite arguments you could ever make.

[Triceron]

Adaptations change things.

Beorn is described as being a 'Black-haired man', while his depiction in the Hobbits is with light-medium brown hair with touches of grey.

I don't see what the big deal is, really.


As for the Dwarf Queen not having facial hair, I can see the criticism behind that but I think I understand the creative decisions not to go in that direction either. It's a tough challenge to have a 'bearded lady' be taken seriously in a visual medium, without coming off as looking gaudy or over the top. I've seen yearning to see the character with a 'big beautiful beard', but social norms have ingrained the idea of associating beards on women with drag queens and circus freaks that it's only going to be a uphill battle to change those norms while presenting it in a serious drama. I'd imagine it'd just get in the way of enjoying the performance. I mean, sure, it's gonna be controversial no matter what they do, but I can understand that forgoing the beard is probably the better decision.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm glad I'm a bookfag, hehe. the original movie trilogy is also 'meh'

Ascend to a higher plain accept the rotoscope version as the one true masterpiece.

[Dhrizzle]

So glad you admit you are racist and only care/focus on race, not on logic, nor consistency or author's intent, or anything else for that matter (and only for blacks, who cares about those other minorities). You just want shoe horned tokenism so you can feel better.

Not even close to what I said, well done for trying I guess.

So now you've admitted that to your mind it is impossible for non-white actors to get roles without them being shoehorned in for tokenism, why do you believe that white people are naturally superior actors?