Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

To take this to it's logical extremes should we start saying certain political groups are good because lots of people like them or is more likely that said groups appeals to the lcd complete with easily chantable slogans that other those not like them.

No. Entertainment and political groups are two very different things. If a large group likes a song, movie, show, book etc then it is good by default because of its popularity. Enough people like it to put in the "good" category. Does it mean in technical terms it is "good" (writing, stagecraft, etc) not necessarily. There are plenty of bad things that were seen as good despite of or because of their flaws. Entertainment also already ties "good or bad" to how many people engage with it. Hence why Billboard/charts, best seller, mins streamed, etc all play a part in something being called good or not.

I'm pretty sure you, and others in this thread would use a low viewership of Rings of Power as evidence that it is bad. In fact some already have with the Samba TV numbers even though they don't give the full picture. You even used the staying power of views to label something bad in the Wheel of time thread. So if low viewership (or its staying power) is used as evidence of something being bad isn't large viewership evidence of it being the opposite?

[Triceron]

No. Entertainment and political groups are two very different things. If a large group likes a song, movie, show, book etc then it is good by default because of its popularity. Enough people like it to put in the "good" category. Does it mean in technical terms it is "good" (writing, stagecraft, etc) not necessarily. There are plenty of bad things that were seen as good despite of or because of their flaws. Entertainment also already ties "good or bad" to how many people engage with it. Hence why Billboard/charts, best seller, mins streamed, etc all play a part in something being called good or not.

I'm pretty sure you, and others in this thread would use a low viewership of Rings of Power as evidence that it is bad. In fact some already have with the Samba TV numbers even though they don't give the full picture. You even used the staying power of views to label something bad in the Wheel of time thread. So if low viewership (or its staying power) is used as evidence of something being bad isn't large viewership evidence of it being the opposite?

All you're really talking about is tribalism, and it exists in both the entertainment fandom and political front. There isn't really any difference between them other than the topic of discussion.

You put enough like-minded individuals in a group, and they're going to form a tribal ideology which their beliefs will be influenced and molded around. And those individuals will end up defending their ideals from any perceived threats without acknowledging what is truthful. That's why certain fandoms and political sides can get so toxic when faced with the truth of things.

Y'know, like white knights labelling anyone who critcizes Galadriel as a Galadriel Hater because it's become impossible to consider that anyone could be criticizing the character without actually hating her.

[rhorle]

All you're really talking about is tribalism, and it exists in both the entertainment fandom and political front. There isn't really any difference between them other than the topic of discussion.

People consuming a product is not tribalism.

[Triceron]

People consuming a product is not tribalism.

Consuming it, no. Speaking out in its defense based on their ideals of the product, yes.


Going to the forums and talking about it isn't merely consuming the product. It's engaging in discussions. And a conflict of ideals and grouping of individuals whether to defend or attack is where tribalism is most clearly apparant. You know, like calling certain people 'Haters'. That would be intentionally grouping anyone who expresses dislike of the show as a 'Hater', even if there are individuals who are merely expressing aspects of the show they don't like rather than it being a general commentary of the entire show. Generalizations get messy, but it's not like the tribalists care. It's in their interest to lump individuals into groups in order to dehumanize them and attack their ideologies out of principle.

[Xath]

No. Entertainment and political groups are two very different things. If a large group likes a song, movie, show, book etc then it is good by default because of its popularity. Enough people like it to put in the "good" category. Does it mean in technical terms it is "good" (writing, stagecraft, etc) not necessarily. There are plenty of bad things that were seen as good despite of or because of their flaws. Entertainment also already ties "good or bad" to how many people engage with it. Hence why Billboard/charts, best seller, mins streamed, etc all play a part in something being called good or not.

I'm pretty sure you, and others in this thread would use a low viewership of Rings of Power as evidence that it is bad. In fact some already have with the Samba TV numbers even though they don't give the full picture. You even used the staying power of views to label something bad in the Wheel of time thread. So if low viewership (or its staying power) is used as evidence of something being bad isn't large viewership evidence of it being the opposite?

No I used numbers in WoT to explain why it will get canceled. What makes it bad is that it is Rafe of Time not Wheel of Time. It could be a live Black Pink BTS Taylor Swift Bieber concert called Wheel of Time and get an insane number of views but it would still be bad as a Wheel of Time adaptation.

Entertainment much like politics is designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator because that is the greatest portion of the human population a ton of views doesn't make something good. Also defending something illogically is absolutely tribalistic behavior.

[rhorle]

Speaking out in its defense based on their ideals of the product, yes.

Okay. That wasn't the topic of what was being discussed but thanks for sharing anyways.

[molliewoof]

second worst episode after the first.

perhaps because i only just realised the hobbits were dickheads this episode

just let galadriel act, she cant be THAT bad

those boats have fifty people on them each max, not 500 total.

send an army of 500 to middle earth to fight a war??

the helmets were dire, looked rubbery

im tired and was half asleep watching, there was more but i cant remember

series is probably a six out of ten so far, ill keep watching because i want to give fantasy series views

[Shadowferal]

National Lampoon has to be taking notes on this review;

‘The Rings Of Power’ Is Making A Mockery Of Tolkien’s Work

If someone were to adapt J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord Of The Rings trilogy in the same manner as Amazon is adapting its appendices that version would go something like this:

Rather than opening on the Shire and Bilbo’s party and a visit from Gandalf, and rather than tell the tale of Frodo and his companions’ fraught departure from their homeland, we would instead be introduced to four separate stories in the opening half hour.

In Story #1, a fierce Hobbit baker woman would encounter an orc and smack it to death with her rolling-pin. Then she’d gather the rest of the Shire to make for a ruined Hobbit castle, where she’d rally the Hobbits to make a valiant last stand against the nearby ditch-digging orcs led by an evil Hobbit with a striking resemblance to Lucius Malfoy.

In Story #2, Aragorn and a crack team of Gondor Rangers (go go Gondor Rangers!) would head for Mordor where they’d soon be captured, but Aragorn would be set free to take a message back to his people: Submit to Sauron or face extinction! Sauron is building a realm where evil will not merely survive, but prosper, after all. But Sauron would allow Aragorn to keep his weapons and armor.

In Story #3, Galadriel would set out from Lothlorien bedecked in full plate armor (as elves do) and head to Rohan where she’d make quick work of Wormtongue and rally the Riders of Rohan to war! She would be sure to show the warriors of Rohan how to swordfight while she was at it, and impress everyone with both her fighting skills and her people skills.

In Story #4, Elrond would send Legolas to the Lonely Mountain to enlist the aid of the dwarves, but in reality he’d have a secret plan even Legolas wasn’t aware of to trick the dwarves into giving them some precious jewels that would act as, uh, like an EMP grenade against Nazguls or something.

Each of these stories would be filled with mystery boxes: Aragorn would find a mysterious crown that wasn’t actually a crown. What is it actually?

The Hobbit baker lady would encounter a mysterious stranger . . . who may or may not be a good guy or a bad guy, but is almost certainly a guy (maybe?).

Whatever, soon the Hobbits will be at war! That’s the important thing! War!

“I know I’m not the king you had in mind, dear Hobbits, but will you stand by me and fight!?” the baker Hobbit would inexplicably ask her unwarlike people, who have no reason to follow her.

From here, rather than establish an adventure—or a fellowship of adventurers—the adaptation would double down on these branching storylines, making each as big and epic as possible right from the get-go, so that rather than having to craft interesting or compelling characters or stories, it becomes a narrative arms race, constantly upping the ante. The Hobbit baker lady doesn’t need a backstory or even a personality, for instance. Why bother?

Galadriel’s adventure would take her first to the ocean for a long swim, then to the jungles of the Even Further South Southlands, then to the North Pole where she would scornfully refuse advice from Santa Claus (who turns out to be a servant of Sauron and has enslaved worker elves in his diabolical factories).

Finally, she’d make it to Rohan along with her new friend Balhrand (the king of the Even Further South Southlands, we soon discover, and a roguish rogue who may or may not be a good guy or a bad guy but is definitely a guy).

In Rohan, we’d get lots of examples of what incompetent simps the Rohirrim are. Éowyn and Éomer would argue constantly over every imaginable thing. Éomer and his best friends would have an ongoing dispute because he tried to get kicked out of the Rohan Cavalry Brigade (The Plains Are Always Right!) and accidentally got his buddy kicked out, too, for reasons (Éomer is a total loser in this version by the way, and everyone hates and abuses him).

His friend is actually Boromir in this version, too, because why not? They argue a lot. Gosh do they argue. But Boromir is able to get a nick on Galadriel in their ballet sword fight where she takes on seven dozen Riders of Rohan at the same time, so now he’s a General and can abuse his friend even more.

At the Lonely Mountain, Gimli and Legolas would form an odd but endearing friendship marred by the absolutely gob-smacking ridiculousness of Elrond’s bizarre plan to trick the dwarves and neither would spend any time fighting orcs because don’t worry boys: Hobbit baker lady and Galadriel got this, yaaasssss girrrll.

Aragorn would eventually show up in the Shire and fall in love with the Hobbit baker lady, inciting a melodramatic love triangle between her, Aragorn and Arwen with lots of ensuing cattiness. If it’s not obvious, Aragorn represents the patriarchy here, something Tolkien himself was deeply, deeply concerned with. (In the end they both ditch him).

We discover—after Gimli convinces the elves to transport a giant stone chair all the way from Rivendell to the Lonely Mountain on foot—that the jewels Elrond has sent Legolas to find are actually the Silmarils because—get this!—they weren’t actually lost or destroyed, they were kept hidden in the Lonely Mountain this whole time!

WHAT? MIND BLOWN!

Smaug, it turns out, was actually a good guy, guarding the Jewels of Fëanor for thousands of years until the greedy dwarves, and their burglar, showed up. He knew that after the One Ring was forged the dwarves could no longer be trusted, so he protected the Silmarils and didn’t even let the elves know. Also, uh, something about how Tom Bombadil was actually a dragon rider at one point and that’s how Smaug was turned from evil and agreed to protect the Silmarils. (Okay, the Adventures Of Tom Bombadil and Smaug has a nice ring to it, I’ll admit).

Anyways, now Elrond and the dwarves can build a suit of armor made out of Silmarils and Galadriel can wear it when she single-handedly smacks down Sauron in a final duel to the death! Wait, not single-handedly because . . .

The Hobbit baker lady, resplendent in her yoga workout clothes, and Arwen in full plate armor, finally team up for some girl power with Galadriel and Éowyn in the final fight, while Aragorn and Éomer cheer from the sidelines, because it turns out that Sauron is just an extended metaphor for toxic masculinity.

In the final scene, Galadriel stabs Sauron through his cold black heart with her badass sword that she reforged at Mount Doom, and kicks him into the lava. Then she takes the Ring—which she’s had this whole time—and tosses it in after him.

“If you like it so much, Sauron,” she says, smirking while things explode behind her, “Then you better put a ring on it.”

This Lord of the Rings adaptation would cut between these various, largely unconnected storylines that have virtually nothing to do with the original source material at a breakneck pace.

Rather than spend time developing any of these characters or establishing a sense of adventure or camaraderie, the script would ensure that they all bicker endlessly with one another, and trick and deceive each other at every opportunity, all to be edgy and grimdark, because let’s face it: Nothing says ‘Tolkien’ like edgy and grimdark.

Mostly, Littlefinger’s Magical Teleportation Ring would get them all from one place to the next without bothering with such antiquated notions as ‘travel’ (baby, we’re in the 21st century now, we fast travel).

Thankfully, it would all be dressed up in pretty costumes and a rousing score and would imitate the aesthetics of Peter Jackson’s original film adaptations enough that we could describe the whole thing as ‘Tolkienesque’ and call it a day.

And somehow, I’d wager, there would be a massive pop culture war over whether or not this was an okay adaptation, whether the real problem was having some black Hobbits in it, and why anyone complaining was just a toxic fan who cares about “the lore.”

I’ve written at length about the many problems with The Rings Of Power, from its insufferable central protagonist to its abysmal writing, and I have other pieces in the works about specific issues I have with the show. (My review of Episode 5 is here).

But I wanted to point out here just how un-Tolkien-like the storytelling itself is. I have done so with humor and exaggeration but I hope you take my meaning. The Lord Of The Rings builds slowly around a small group of characters. It takes its time and carefully establishes its world and people. Much of its earlier chapters are spent on various charming friendships, or encounters with ethereal elves who sing into the night. Only much later are the characters separated or do we hear the drums of war. In adapting appendices there’s clearly more work to be done getting from notes to narrative, as it were, but this doesn’t even feel like Tolkien fan-fiction.

It’s not so much that Amazon has fiddled with the lore, it’s that the show’s writers and creators have told a story that simply wears the trappings of Middle-earth without understanding its thematic core, let alone even attempting to take a crack at Tolkien’s storytelling style. Peter Jackson’s films were not perfect and lord knows I had my issues with them when they came out, but at least it was obvious that he was trying to adapt Tolkien’s works as faithfully as possible (the same cannot be said for The Hobbit). Changes had to be made, for better or worse, but Jackson still did a mostly excellent job at translating page to screen.

What we have now with The Rings Of Power barely even resembles Middle-earth. It’s just a generic Hollywood fantasy created by people who badly misunderstands its source material and don’t seem to give a damn. Maybe that’s what’s begun irking me so badly. The show isn’t just straying from Tolkien’s lore; rather, its creators seem to think they know better, that they can do whatever they please with the source material, or that by ignoring it they can improve upon it somehow. There’s a certain degree of arrogance at play in the liberties they’ve taken that I find both insulting and unearned.

But even as generic fantasy, utterly divorced from any whiff of Middle-earth, this is not good. Even if you stripped Tolkien and his characters and world from this entirely and called Galadriel by a new name and made up a new villain entirely, this would be badly paced, unpleasant gobbledygook with few characters to care about or root for and a plot that feels rushed and slow at the same time. (Since no mention of Rings has been made yet, it would actually be quite easy to just insert new character and place names and turn this into a generic fantasy, and it would still be pretty awful).

[Orby]

National Lampoon has to be taking notes on this review;

‘The Rings Of Power’ Is Making A Mockery Of Tolkien’s Work

Rings of Power was always going to be a scary under taking. I watched Daniel Greene's episode 5 review and he kinda nailed it, the RoP team are basically going off of Glossary information, they don;t have rights for any major Tolkien books so they are trying to give us this grand art piece but they have all this space with no room to put everything on it. Or like Bilbo put it in Fellowship, '...sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread'.

So in the end you got RoP a show where it wants to try and be a middle ground, where they are trying to keep the source material (with what they have the rights to) and using creative liberties to fill in the gaps, and that middle ground is everything you see when the show feels off, the dialogue, or the designs, or the look, or the storyline.

Tolkiens text is very limited on the subject of what Rings of Power is trying to tell. Taking liberties they would make the angry Tolkien fans angry, and if they kept to the source material, it would be a mess because there isn't much to go on that would creative a proper narrative. So what we got is a mix of both. And going with Greene's review again, I wish they had just gone all out and said F it, the way Shadow of Mordor did, create a new story within the Middle Earth setting, around time chosen, instead of trying to make a puzzle with missing pieces.

Which leads to my opinion, it should have never been made in the first place. But I guess Amazon needed that money. Tolkien is still a money making franchise and amazon knows it can still make money, with the sacrifice of quality. also coming out around the same time as House of the Dragon isn't helping them either.

But before people yell 'yOu jUSt a HaTeR you RacIsT, aNd SEXist'. I like the show enough, its not great, and I do not think its the worst thing ever, its just a bad Tolkien adaptation and the bar is pretty high so considering what other stuff they had to contend with... yea. I do like the Elrond/Durin and Disa stuff. But the stuff I used to like I have kinda warn out on, and the stuff I don't like I like even less.

[Shadowferal]

Should have put in some of the old game. At least Shelob was eye candy.

[Syegfryed]

Rings of Power was always going to be a scary under taking. I watched Daniel Greene's episode 5 review and he kinda nailed it, the RoP team are basically going off of Glossary information, they don;t have rights for any major Tolkien books so they are trying to give us this grand art piece but they have all this space with no room to put everything on it. Or like Bilbo put it in Fellowship, '...sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread'.

No... they had enough information to do something, they are just going buck wide with their fanfiction, probably because this was an arlready script they made that everyone with half brain would say it was bad, they just renamed things to Lord of the rings to be aproved

Its not that they have nothing to work on, its because what they work is rly bad, the writing is awful and the plot is nonsensical.

I wish they had just gone all out and said F it, the way Shadow of Mordor did, create a new story within the Middle Earth setting, around time chosen, instead of trying to make a puzzle with missing pieces.

But... thats exactly what they are doing, everything is fucked, i can't name what is the same from the actual history.

Like, take by example this new obnoxious plot that the elves are actually losing their light, and dying, because darkness is growing cus sauron(despite the darkness being stronger with Morgoth for thousands of years and they were just fine), and now they somehow need mithrill to get their light back or they die

This is completely new made up shit that make no sense

Like, how the fuck the elves would bathe in the light of mithril, are they going to squeeze and make juice? smoke like crack? shove in their butts? its going to be enough mithril for the entire elven race? why in the ass dwarves would give two shits about the elves?

Which leads to my opinion, it should have never been made in the first place. But I guess Amazon needed that money. Tolkien is still a money making franchise and amazon knows it can still make money, with the sacrifice of quality. also coming out around the same time as House of the Dragon isn't helping them either..

In the hands of competent writers/directors maybe it could be, at least, an enjoyable fantasy show with some fantasy shenanigans, this one can't even do that.

[Orby]

Should have put in some of the old game. At least Shelob was eye candy.

Is it a hot take to say I hated sexy Shelob lol

[Kumorii]

Is it a hot take to say I hated sexy Shelob lol

Nah, lots of people did say that was stupid. Frankly the game was damn good though and they never claimed it to be faithful so in the end that noise kind of disappeared.

Personally I don't mind either really. If you were to expand on Shelob (have not read the books so just going of the LotR trilogy) I guess what they did is a good direction imo. Makes Shelob more interesting than being a pet spider in some caves near Mordor.

Just a side note, Spirit of Carnan beats Shelob imo. They could've replaced Shelob in the first game with Carnan for the same role / purpose really. And I really enjoyed Carnan, the voice actress were godly, one of my favorite. But they didn't think of it in the first game I guess.

[kenn9530]

And people can take irredeemable issue with something, too.

To say one is possible but the other is not, that's basically a textbook definition of bias.


And... vice versa.

This goes in both directions.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and going "nuh-uh, it only works for the positives!" is not a position, it's a temper tantrum.

The only thing that is bias is giving it a low rating purely on hating something because in your opinion its not tolkien, hes dead we dont know what he would want only what you seem to think.

The proof of the show being good is clear in all evidence so you cant deny most ppl think its a good show.

- - - Updated - - -

Considering you are an apologist for a broken and garbage mess like Star Citizen, it comes as no surprise that you are also an apologist for this piss ass excuse for an attempt at doing something with Tolkien's work. Here's a thought though. People are allowed to criticize something, especially something that horribly misrepresents characters in existing works. The only thing this show has going for it is pretty visuals and passable music, everything else about it is garbage.

Star Citizen is in a game in active development and still considered better than all other space games available, they never claimed they were doing something of tolkiens work nor do they have all the rights to so if you expected tolkien you only have yourself to blame, he is dead and there wont be anything more from him.

Even if you think the only good things about the show is the visuals and production that alone makes it good enough to be a 3-4/10 on those merits alone, so a 1/10 rating is not accurate and cant be used as evidence to support it being bad when all the data proves the show is considered to be good.

[Mace]

So people that steal boats and holy gems are somehow not "sneaky" or "duplicitous"? Didn't they ostracize ex-captives of Morgoth/Sauron? What about Maeglin who turned traitor in exchange for his crush as a "spoil of war"?

It is quite clear that Elves are capable of doing "bad" things for lack of a better all encompassing term and it has nothing to do with "modern politics" or "bubbled societies".

What, or who rather are you defending - their racial portrayal is off and comes off as cheap.

You are thinking of Tolkien’s work like Warcraft lore - thinking the exception proves a general rule, rather than catching the insight the examples give.

And Feanor should not be on that list too.

RoO elves are nothing remarkable they lack the distinctiveness and high attributes the very meaning of the word and Tolkien’s attributes underlie.

The stuff these guys wrote just doesn’t hold up to the original and their race and character portrayls come off cheap, laden with political and ideological messaging and all round badly written.

It’s fine for a run of the mill fantasy. Most aren’t anything to write home about and are full of allegory reflecting author’s view that have little remarkable though I do enjoy them for the fantasy they paint. But im under no such illusions their works are literary masterpieces

[rhorle]

You are thinking of Tolkien’s work like Warcraft lore - thinking the exception proves a general rule, rather than catching the insight the examples give.

The exceptions do prove that you are wrong in your assessment of Elves. It is as simple as that.

But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were ‘embalmers’. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists’–and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret. –J.R.R. Tolkien, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 154

[ParanoiD84]

It's alright so far was dissapointed with the first couple episodes but i gets abit better so still have some hope.

Cant help to compare it to house of dragon though as they both run now but one thing is certain the casting and acting is miles better in hod so far especially after latest episode. Perhaps as it's more realistic (minus the dragons) and dark compared to rop.

Anyways i hope tomorrow's episode is a good one because there is only so many left of the first season.

[Fortress of Arrogance]

Again, there is no proof of this, and is just something paranoid conspiracy theorists say.

There is, and there is.
If something looks like a duck, tastes like duck and quacks like a duck, it is, most likely, a duck.
If a huge number of game critics SUDDENLY draw absolutely identical parallels between two games which are not resembling of each other, it is not that difficult to arrive to a singular conclusion, as was with Horizon2:FW and ME2 comparison.

Do some studios try and limit access if you give bad reviews? Maybe.

It's not "maybe".
You either make a review that follows studio's demands, or your partnership gets terminated, which means, you are not reviewing the game, and not presenting your own thoughts.

and once you get big enough that studios can't ignore you, you don't need to care about what the studio thinks.

Just like people who get canceled for the slightest of slip of tongue.
For example, if a certain nostalgic movie critic was a staunch opponent of sjw agenda and propaganda, and suddenly started supporting it, he's either did a 180, which begs the question of why, or is too afraid to say what he wants to say.

It's kind of like distrusting scientists as "stooges" during the pandemic.

No.
But I must thank you for drawing a comparison.
That was quite...indicative of you.

[Myradin]

This thread's really devolved into people trying to define good and bad, right and wrong.

It's alright so far was dissapointed with the first couple episodes but i gets abit better so still have some hope.

Cant help to compare it to house of dragon though as they both run now but one thing is certain the casting and acting is miles better in hod so far especially after latest episode. Perhaps as it's more realistic (minus the dragons) and dark compared to rop.

Anyways i hope tomorrow's episode is a good one because there is only so many left of the first season.

Honestly I'd say its because stuff actually happens in HoTD.

We've had like 5 episodes of pure setup (hopefully not 6). 4 and 5 have felt better paced, but there's a lot of storylines that feel like they'ved moved nowhere, while progress in other stories seems to happen off screen.

Meanwhile HoTD has friendships be forged and destroyed, plots hatched and foiled. Characters introduced, developed, and killed off. Each episode feels like its own chapter with a point.

Whereas I feel like just about everything in RoP takes 2-3 or more episodes to happens. It also feels like characters often fail a bunch just to have the plot hand them a win with little effort on their part, making all the time leading up to it feel wasted.

Arondir captured? Spend entire episode trying and failing to escape. Next episode they just let him go anyway as they want him to send a message. How convenient.

Galadriel needing to convince Numenor for help? Fails for 2 episodes and is about to be sent away via boat until tree saves her. Then takes a third episode to actually leave. Hilariously she actually says she convinced the princess.

Elrond wants to be friend dwarves again. They're grumpy but just get over it. He does nothing to prove himself, it all depends on their offscreen friendship.

[Biomega]

The only thing that is bias is giving it a low rating purely on hating something because in your opinion its not tolkien, hes dead we dont know what he would want only what you seem to think.

The proof of the show being good is clear in all evidence so you cant deny most ppl think its a good show.

You realize, though, that this is circular logic?

"I'm not discounting 10/10 reviews because the high average review score proves this is a good show, therefore those are legit reviews".