Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[InfiniteCharger]

The fact you are no longer arguing that adaptions are required to be canon proves I, and others, have countered your claims. It is why you are now trying argue that the level of adaptation is important as if that was your original claim all along and "Full" versus "not-full" adaptation is what was being discussed.

Because I never said that. What I said is it wasn't canon. And I also said that it is not an adaptation the same as Lord of the Rings which is a complete work of fiction. Meaning this is mostly a made up story based on a few footnotes and paragraphs in the appendices. You simply have not grasped the concept that whatever they make up from the appendices is literally not canon because there is not enough written to go off of. That was the point. Not to mention the series itself says at the end of each episode that it is only "inspired" by Tolkien and not trying to literally be an adaptation of Tolkien because it can't as they don't have all the rights to even begin to "adapt" the second age. So like I said, these "rights" to the appendices literally only gives them access to certain characters and settings from Tolkien in whatever made up story they create. That's it. This is just you repeating yourself acting like you are changing what I have been saying when I haven't changed a thing. You haven't challenged what I said at all instead of trying to reword it to make it seem like you are saying something when you aren't. Again, you run and hide behind the word "adaptation" because you seem to be offended when I state the fact that most of this series is completely made up and not canon.

[Biomega]

Literally your entire point here it to tell me that you cannot see the literal difference in effort required to adapt a complete work of fiction versus adapting a set of footnotes.

Wrong.

My entire point is call it a loose adaptation if you will, it doesn't change the fact that it IS an adaptation. I'm not concerned with what it is an adaptation of, how well it adapts that, whether or not it adapts it better than something else, or whatever other tangents you want to go on.

My point is and always has been purely that you are wrong claiming "this isn't an adaptation.". Period. Nothing more, nothing less. Everything else you've tacked on in your inane ramblings is not my argument, it's your invention.

My point from the beginning is that adapting the appendices is a different beast than adapting a complete work of fiction.

That's not what you said initially. Allow me:

There is no complete story of the second age that Tolkien wrote so it isn't an adaptation.

This was what I objected to.

You didn't say "this is different than adapting a complete work". You said "it isn't an adaptation". You didn't say "it isn't an adaptation of a novel", you didn't say "it isn't an adaptation of a complete work" or whatever else.

Don't lie.

The fact that you can't or don't understand that is not my problem.

I can only go by what you write. I have not reached the level of telepathy yet. If you don't want people to misunderstand you, perhaps you could be more precise in what you are saying.

Like saying "this isn't an adaptation of a novel" instead of "this isn't an adaptation."

It seems you just like to sit here and make up things to argue about while ignoring what I actually wrote.

Yeah, about "what you actually wrote..." See above.

[rhorle]

Because I never said that.

No you just keep repeating yourself. You say that it isn't canon but then say it is an "adaptation".
There is no complete story of the second age that Tolkien wrote so it isn't an adaptation.

Tell me where I said what they make up is canon? You keep arguing something that no one stated while denying the very things you've stated. Even in this post you are trying to argue that it isn't an adaptation while in your previous post you said it is an adaptation but just not one based on a full book. You are contradicting yourself in your zeal to not be wrong.

[InfiniteCharger]

Wrong.

My entire point is call it a loose adaptation if you will, it doesn't change the fact that it IS an adaptation. I'm not concerned with what it is an adaptation of, how well it adapts that, whether or not it adapts it better than something else, or whatever other tangents you want to go on.

My point is and always has been purely that you are wrong claiming "this isn't an adaptation.". Period. Nothing more, nothing less. Everything else you've tacked on in your inane ramblings is not my argument, it's your invention.

That's not what you said initially. Allow me:


This was what I objected to.

You didn't say "this is different than adapting a complete work". You said "it isn't an adaptation". You didn't say "it isn't an adaptation of a novel", you didn't say "it isn't an adaptation of a complete work" or whatever else.

Don't lie.


I can only go by what you write. I have not reached the level of telepathy yet. If you don't want people to misunderstand you, perhaps you could be more precise in what you are saying.

Like saying "this isn't an adaptation of a novel" instead of "this isn't an adaptation."


Yeah, about "what you actually wrote..." See above.

And I stated explicitly that it isn't an adaptation because there wasn't anything there to adapt other than footnotes. You sitting here trying to grandstand acting like you didn't read that is why this is a waste of time. You are using the word "adaptation" to hide behind because you are trying to pretend that taking a few sentences and footnotes is literally the same creative process as taking an entire written novel with dialog, characters, events and settings and "adapting" it to another medium such as TV and film. That is totally completely and inherently false, because taking a bunch of footnotes means you actually have to create an entire story or novel from scratch because no such thing exists as part of the process of "adapting" it to another medium. This is the point I have made numerous times and you keep ducking because you are being dishonest. So that is one reason this is not an adaptation.

The other reason it isn't an adaptation is because they don't have the rights to even try to "adapt" the second age of tolkien.
So that is another point I also explicitly made as well as to why this series is simply a made up story inspired by Tolkien.
And that is literally what the show says at the end of every episode. I have also explicitly stated that multiple times.

What you are trying to do is use the word "adaptation" as a be all and catch all for anything dealing with this series ignoring the specific points I made. And that is why you are being dishonest because you don't address the specifics because you can't. So you resort to these insane games of semantics trying to nibble around to find something to argue about. Which is a waste of time.

So like I said, give it a rest. This is a made up non canon story that is not an adaptation of the 2nd age because they don't have the rights. It is only an "adaptation" of some footnotes and paragraphs in the appendices which aren't a complete story and just references.

[rhorle]

And I stated explicitly that it isn't an adaptation because there wasn't anything there to adapt other than footnotes.

So nothing there to adapt except footnotes. Which means there is stuff to adapt. Lmao.

[kenn9530]

First of all, people like or don't like its no the only metric to decide if something is good or not, hell, its not even impartial, you can like bad and awful stuff and people can dislike good things, those are subjectives, you and other people can like RoP even if tis a garbage show, there is no problem in that, more fun for y'all.

Second, i didn't a thing about plotholes, yes, they exist, so you exposed another problem the show have, second, trying to claim "tolkien had problems too" is a bad non sequitur

Liking something or not doesnt change a simple fact that the show is good, you can easily say tolkiens books have just as many issues as any tv/series or films and the same with most books, following a books story doesnt not guarantee a good tv series or film.

More ppl like RoP than dont so its already proven the shown is good and that wont change.

[InfiniteCharger]

Tell me where I said what they make up is canon? You keep arguing something that no one stated while denying the very things you've stated. Even in this post you are trying to argue that it isn't an adaptation while in your previous post you said it is an adaptation but just not one based on a full book. You are contradicting yourself in your zeal to not be wrong.

If you cannot show me where I am incorrect then why are you replying?
So what is your point? Are you just upset, because I said it is made up and not canon?
You haven't disproved that or disagreed, so why do you keep going on about it?

It isn't canon because there is nothing there to adapt other than footnotes.
Obviously you don't have the capacity to understand how that is literally not an "adaptation" because it isn't even a complete story.
That was the point and you still haven't contradicted that. Not to mention they haven't even followed those footnotes.

[Biomega]

And I stated explicitly that it isn't an adaptation because there wasn't anything there to adapt other than footnotes.

There you go again.

There only being footnotes doesn't mean you can't adapt it. It means it's not an adaptation of a novel, but it DOES NOT MEAN it isn't an adaptation.

Period.

- - - Updated - - -

you are trying to pretend that taking a few sentences and footnotes is literally the same creative process as taking an entire written novel with dialog, characters, events and settings and "adapting" it to another medium such as TV and film.

No.

YOU are doing that.

I never said anything about that, in any way.

All I'm saying is that whether or not it's only footnotes, you can still make an adaptation of it.

PERIOD.

ONLY THAT.

THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING.

So stop adding all that other insane shit every time I say this. I add PERIOD to it for a reason.

[rhorle]

If you cannot show me where I am incorrect then why are you replying?

I literally did that. Are you actually reading the posts you are responding to? An adaptation isn't required to use a complete story. Can you provide a definition that states that as a requirement?

[InfiniteCharger]

Tell me where I said what they make up is canon? You keep arguing something that no one stated while denying the very things you've stated. Even in this post you are trying to argue that it isn't an adaptation while in your previous post you said it is an adaptation but just not one based on a full book. You are contradicting yourself in your zeal to not be wrong.

So you agree with me. It isn't canon. Period. Thanks.

And it isn't an adaptation because there isn't anything to actually adapt.
I have said this over and over again. The fact that you think an "adaptation" is something 90% made up is the issue.
It isn't an adaptation because there wasn't much to "adapt" to begin with.

That was the point. I haven't changed my position. You just keep repeating yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

There you go again.

There only being footnotes doesn't mean you can't adapt it. It means it's not an adaptation of a novel, but it DOES NOT MEAN it isn't an adaptation.

Period.

- - - Updated - - -


No.

YOU are doing that.

I never said anything about that, in any way.

All I'm saying is that whether or not it's only footnotes, you can still make an adaptation of it.

PERIOD.

ONLY THAT.

THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING.

So stop adding all that other insane shit every time I say this. I add PERIOD to it for a reason.

You keep using "adapt" as a verb implying the action of "adapting" is the same no mater what when it is not.
I keep saying this because you keep ignoring it to make up your own nonsense argument.
If you have to make up 90% of the dialog, 90% of the characters, settings and everything else, then it isn't an adaptation.
You using the word as a verb doesn't change that. It is a completely made up story set in Tolkiens universe.
That is not the same as an adaptation of a work written by Tolkien because that work doesn't exist (the 2nd age stories).
You haven't challenged that, you just keep repeating yourself that it is still an adaptation when it is not.
It is a wholly new story, set of characters, settings, dialogs and events that had to be made up by Amazon.
Therefore, those things were not an adaptation of characters, settings, dialogs and events that were already written.
And that is even if they were faithful to the footnotes which they aren't which shows even further it is simply a made up story.

[rhorle]

So you agree with me. It isn't canon. Period. Thanks.

Yes. As I've told you many times already. How is it that you think that is something I've ever disagreed about?

"Footnotes", Appendices, and a prologue contain nothing for them to adapt? Where is there a definition that says an adaptation can only have a certain % of made up things? If there wasn't much to adapt to begin with that still means there was something to adapt. Lmao.

- - - Updated - - -

If you have to make up 90% of the dialog, 90% of the characters, settings and everything else, then it isn't an adaptation.

You just stated that 10% of it is an adaptation. Lmao.

[InfiniteCharger]

I literally did that. Are you actually reading the posts you are responding to? An adaptation isn't required to use a complete story. Can you provide a definition that states that as a requirement?

You agreed it is not canon.

You agreed it is mostly made up.

You agreed there isn't much source material to "adapt"....

And whether you acknowledge it or not, they don't have the rights to "adapt" the 2nd age canon anyway.

So which of those did you prove wrong?

- - - Updated - - -

Yes. As I've told you many times already. How is it that you think that is something I've ever disagreed about?

"Footnotes", Appendices, and a prologue contain nothing for them to adapt? Where is there a definition that says an adaptation can only have a certain % of made up things? If there wasn't much to adapt to begin with that still means there was something to adapt. Lmao.

- - - Updated - - -



You just stated that 10% of it is an adaptation. Lmao.

There was no dialog, no characters, and settings to actually adapt outside of some footnotes.
Lord of the Rings is a complete work of fiction that can be adapted.
The appendices are not a complete work of fiction and require a lot of other information to fill in the blanks.
They don't have the rights to all of those other things to fill in those blanks.
So it is not a literal adaptation. You repeating yourself isn't changing anything.

[Biomega]

You keep using "adapt" as a verb implying the action of "adapting" is the same no mater what when it is not.

It's the same the way "walking" is the same whether I say "walking to the store" or "walking round the world".

That doesn't mean they're not "walking", even though the outcome is two vastly different scenarios. And to claim it wasn't the same would be wrong. And even even if those are two very different scenarios, they ARE both "walking".

If you have to make up 90% of the dialog, 90% of the characters, settings and everything else, then it isn't an adaptation.

Wrong.

This is your problem - you think there's some arbitrary cutoff point where it stops being an adaptation. There isn't. Or, alternatively, if you want to argue that there is, EXPLAIN IT. It's not 90% apparently. What, then? 80%? 70%? 49%? How do you measure those percentages?

We're talking broad categorical terminology here. You can't just usurp that for private use and throw a tantrum when people point out that's not the correct usage.

[rhorle]

So it is not a literal adaptation.

Where does it say an adaptation requires a "full novel worth of information" in order to be an adaptation? An adaptation is simply taking X from its original medium and putting in a different medium. Books can be adapted into plays, TV, Film, etc. There is no authority to create a standard based on the percentage of made up thing versus percentage of things from canon.

[rogoth]

Right. It isn't canon. Why is that something that the haters have to keep repeating when everyone here is fully aware of that? The Jackson movies weren't canon either and they didn't need a warning for people to understand that, right? Even work done by the Estate and Christopher are not canon since they are not JRR.

because for almost the entire lifespan of this project until the pre release marketing push began, they had marketed this project as 'lore accurate' and 'an epic retelling of the second age', alongside every time they were asked about the source material that they would be 'sticking closely to the source material and making sure not to egregiously contradict what is already written' which we all know is a fucking lie because everything that's been shown so far is an egregious bastardisation of what's been written on a scale unimagined prior to release, it's like when i and many others warned it would be a bad show, we weren't prepared for just how bad it was actually going to end up being, this is magnitudes beyond what i imagined, and it shows just how much you care (almost nil) about what was initially promised as a project, and what it ended up being simply identity politics galore mixed with a sprinkling of token diversity and a massive dollop of amateur theatre work masquerading as film and TV piled on top of this shitshow sundae, which you and the other mindslaves defending it seem happy to chug down with no resistance.

[InfiniteCharger]

It's the same the way "walking" is the same whether I say "walking to the store" or "walking round the world".

That doesn't mean they're not "walking", even though the outcome is two vastly different scenarios. And to claim it wasn't the same would be wrong. And even even if those are two very different scenarios, they ARE both "walking".


Wrong.

This is your problem - you think there's some arbitrary cutoff point where it stops being an adaptation. There isn't. Or, alternatively, if you want to argue that there is, EXPLAIN IT. It's not 90% apparently. What, then? 80%? 70%? 49%? How do you measure those percentages?

We're talking broad categorical terminology here. You can't just usurp that for private use and throw a tantrum when people point out that's not the correct usage.

It isn't an adaptation of something written to the screen because it wasn't written in the first place. So the effective verb is creating something new because that is literally what is taking place in creating new characters, new settings, new events and new stories for them. It is completely not the same process as taken a complete story that only exists in a written format and "adapting" it to a television series or movie.

Again, you are just repeating yourself impling that the verb "adapt" means the exact same thing in all cases no matter what when it doesnt.
And literally most adaptations are of complete works of fiction not simply footnotes. Footnotes aren't a story.
Not to mention they don't have the rights to the full story to begin with........
You just like making up stuff to hear yourself talk.

[rogoth]

Where does it say an adaptation requires a "full novel worth of information" in order to be an adaptation? An adaptation is simply taking X from its original medium and putting in a different medium. Books can be adapted into plays, TV, Film, etc. There is no authority to create a standard based on the percentage of made up thing versus percentage of things from canon.

actually, yes there is, and if you don't maintain certain percentage thresholds of the project being from the original source material, you can no longer legally call it an adaptation, it must be renamed, but you should know this since you seem to perpetuate yourself as an all knowing authority on this shitshow, seems strange you wouldn't know this FUNDAMENTAL DETAIL.

[InfiniteCharger]

Where does it say an adaptation requires a "full novel worth of information" in order to be an adaptation? An adaptation is simply taking X from its original medium and putting in a different medium. Books can be adapted into plays, TV, Film, etc. There is no authority to create a standard based on the percentage of made up thing versus percentage of things from canon.

The footnotes are not an entire story. Therefore most of that story has to be written, characters created and dialog developed from scratch.
So that process of creating an entirely new story and characters is not the same as an "adaptation".

But since you asked, name me another example of an "adaptation" of some footnotes without rights to the full story.
Amazon doesn't have the rights to a TV series for LOTR. They only have the rights to the footnotes.
So it isn't an adaptation and only gives them the rights to use the name Lord of The Rings, character and setting in their made up story.
The fact that they have to make it up means that they literally are not "adapting" it, because the story to adapt doesn't exist.
There is no complete story or novel of the second age or even major events in the second age.
So it isn't an adaptation of such a story because it doesn't exist.
You are arguing that it being an adaptation is due to the little source material they have being what is being adapted.
But even on that point they aren't even following that source material because they are not "adapting" It.
They literally say at the end of every episode it is only inspired by Tolkien and not an adaptation.
It is a completely made up story, characters and settings with the rights to use the word Tolkien and Lord of the Rings.
Nobody else at Amazon is calling this an adaptation anywhere in the actual show itself.

[rhorle]

actually, yes there is, and if you don't maintain certain percentage thresholds of the project being from the original source material, you can no longer legally call it an adaptation, it must be renamed

What are those legal percentages? Can you link to that law?

- - - Updated - - -

The footnotes are not an entire story. Therefore most of that story has to be written, characters created and dialog developed from scratch.So that process of creating an entirely new story and characters is not the same as an "adaptation".

It is. All adaptations create a new story using pre-existing elements. Even the Jackson films created a new version of the story. Amazon is just adapting with less then others but they are still adapting.

[Hansworst]

They are using established characters, events and locations in a TV series. Seems like textbook adaptation to me?
You can criticize a lot about this series and rightfully so but it is an adaptation.