Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

tolkien also didnt write a story in the time RoP is active so noone but tolkien can actually say if its not something he would of done or not anyway

We actually know enough that he would have never wanted to adapt any of his material to the big screen, certainly not in a revisionist compressed timeline that would suit a TV series. He sold the rights for them and otherwise had no direct interest in how faithful the adaptations were to his original work.

This show is literally standing on its own legs regardless of what Tolkien would have done.

[rhorle]

Ah right. Yes, that must be why they were attacking and killing villagers, because they wanted them alive.

Adar wanted some of them alive. Burning the entire building down wouldn't allow them to use lives as a way to compel Arondir (or Theo) of telling them the hiding place.

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We actually know enough that he would have never wanted to adapt any of his material to the big screen, certainly not in a revisionist compressed timeline that would suit a TV series. He sold the rights for them and otherwise had no direct interest in how faithful the adaptations were to his original work.

That is a contradiction. He didn't want his work adapted yet still sold the rights which allowed adaptations. Letter 210 doesn't imply he is against adaptations but against what he would find to be a poor one. He also states that it is hard for an author to see their work changed so his response may be overly harsh and that isn't his true intent. Trying to claim what Tolkien would think of this adaptation is silly. He isn't alive to render judgement.

[kenn9530]

We actually know enough that he would have never wanted to adapt any of his material to the big screen, certainly not in a revisionist compressed timeline that would suit a TV series. He sold the rights for them and otherwise had no direct interest in how faithful the adaptations were to his original work.

This show is literally standing on its own legs regardless of what Tolkien would have done.

How do you know what he would want he is dead, as time passes ppl change and if it didnt get adapted to the big screen then LOTRs would of fell into obscurity because without the films the books would never of sold as many since it struggled to sell 50 million over many decades, the films are what made the series a large success, the books on thier own did good but not great, you can also say it may of never of sold that many without the films as the films came out in 2001 and the book sales didnt reach 50 mill until 2003.

Book writers know there has to be changes when it gets put on tv/films so if he didnt want it to be that way he wouldnt of sold the rights in the first place. Its impossible to do a book series faithfully unless the series is going to go on as long as supernatural then you might be able to fit everything in but other than that its not going to happen.

[Daedius]

Seriously bugs me how they never bothered to check the hilt after catching Adar right away, so damn obvious...

[fakaroonie]

I seriously don't like the slow-mo scenes that are supposed to make you feel something.

Remember Haldir's death in Helm's Deep? Yeah it was slow-mo, but goddamn it had an effect. Human lady getting arrowed and living? Why the slow-mo? It's just... it's like they're trying to be cringe on purpose.

[Triceron]

How do you know what he would want he is dead,

Just look up his interviews and the comments his son has made in retrospect. Tolkien was adamant that his work was unadaptable as a movie. And considering he is dead, that is an opinion that dies with him.

I mean it's not like this was not known.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midd...ch%20proposals.

Tolkien watched films,[1] but always had a mistrust of the medium[2] and of his books' suitability for dramatization.[3] He had received fanmail on the matter, some proposing to adapt the works to film and some encouraging him to refuse such proposals.[3] Tolkien and his publishers, Allen and Unwin, were willing to play along with film proposals, on condition of having a veto on creative decisions or relinquishing those for a sufficient sum of money.[4]

Basically he either gets last say on creative decisions, or give it up entirely for a lot of money. He wouldn't have supported a rewrite in the way Rings of Power's story has been presented. It would be his way, or the highway.

Like, you're right that book writers acknowledge there have to be changes. And his plan would have either been to have control to veto any changes he didn't like, or else give up that entire right for lots of money and just not support it at all. He wouldn't involve himself in a major reimagining of his own work like you seem to suggest could happen if he were alive today. The opposite is true, and we even see that living out in how Christopher Tolkien was so protective of his father's work, even outright saying he hated the PJ movies. At that point they didn't have the film rights at all so CT had no power over the creative decisions of the PJ movies.

[kenn9530]

Just look up his interviews and the comments his son has made in retrospect. Tolkien was adamant that his work was unadaptable as a movie. And considering he is dead, that is an opinion that dies with him.

I mean it's not like this was not known.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midd...ch%20proposals.

He allowed the rights to be sold to make a movie so what he says is that he wasnt against it being made into a film/tv series but the reality is you cant make a faithfull version of it no matter what from the book, so no matter how good a tv series or movie is fans cant really complain its not tolkien enough because its simply impossible.

[Triceron]

He allowed the rights to be sold to make a movie so what he says is that he wasnt against it being made into a film/tv series but the reality is you cant make a faithfull version of it no matter what from the book, so no matter how good a tv series or movie is fans cant really complain its not tolkien enough because its simply impossible.

Fans can because what 'Tolkien' is to them is a subjective value.

Like if Blizzard made a new game that they called Starcraft Neo that was a Doom-style first person shooter about killing demons in space and it didn't have Terran, Protoss or Zerg in it, then fans have a legitimate reason to say it isn't very 'Starcraft' at all. Familiarity and theme is a big part of what people consider part of a series. You can slap the Starcraft name on a product but that doesn't mean fans will automatically regard it as being true to what they think the 'Starcraft' brand is about.

Same backlash happened recently with Masters of the Universe Revelations and some fans deeming it not ver 'He-Man'. That's what it is to them, and that's a legitimate opinion to have.

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That is a contradiction. He didn't want his work adapted yet still sold the rights which allowed adaptations. Letter 210 doesn't imply he is against adaptations but against what he would find to be a poor one. He also states that it is hard for an author to see their work changed so his response may be overly harsh and that isn't his true intent. Trying to claim what Tolkien would think of this adaptation is silly. He isn't alive to render judgement.

To clarify, he wouldn't have supported an adaptation that was wildly different from his own work.

Selling the rights for money doesn't mean he wants to see it happen, it means he prioritized business and making money over caring about his personal fee fees. Like selling a house you don't want to sell, but the offer too good to turn down.

I mean in retrospect, this is pretty much the case. He got to the point where he was able to live with the decision to sell the rights for big money. Doesn't mean he did it because he actually wanted to see his work being made into movies, and we have a lot of info regarding how tumultuous it was when he got directly involved with the productions.

[kenn9530]

Fans can because what 'Tolkien' is to them is a subjective value.

Like if Blizzard made a new game that they called Starcraft Neo that was a Doom-style first person shooter about killing demons in space and it didn't have Terran, Protoss or Zerg in it, then fans have a legitimate reason to say it isn't very 'Starcraft' at all. Familiarity and theme is a big part of what people consider part of a series. You can slap the Starcraft name on a product but that doesn't mean fans will automatically regard it as being true to what they think the 'Starcraft' brand is about.

Same backlash happened recently with Masters of the Universe Revelations and some fans deeming it not ver 'He-Man'. That's what it is to them, and that's a legitimate opinion to have.

The only one that can claim what is relevant to being tolkien or not is the man himself, fans have no say in whats considered tolkien or not because you dont know the man himself or his actual thoughts on everything, for all that you know amazon writers could be going by notes left by tolkien himself on what he possibly wanted from doing a story in the era of RoP, fans opinions dont matter what matters is if the series gets enough viewers or not to be worth it and so far it exceeds all other tv shows released so far in terms of viewers.

A book doesnt always make a good film or series, most of tolkiens success was due to the films being good, without the films most ppl wouldnt of ever heard of LOTRs.

[rhorle]

Basically he either gets last say on creative decisions, or give it up entirely for a lot of money. He wouldn't have supported a rewrite in the way Rings of Power's story has been presented. It would be his way, or the highway.

That contradicts your own evidence that says he wouldn't care if he got paid enough. It was his way or pay. There is no way to know if "his way" would or would not align with Rings of Power. Nothing you provided indicate that would be the case. This is why it is silly to claim that he would or would not have done something. Simon Tolkien is a consultant so the show does at least have one person from the estate involved.

[Syegfryed]

Pretty sure people will start to say "now the show is getting good, it good action", but that is far from the truth still, this is just bait, the episode was as bad written as the others

Its such a nonsensical deus ex machina that the army of numenor came in right when shits is going down, were they trying to mimic how rohan was saved? this does not work because the build up was awful, on both sides.

It is also obnoxiously inconsistent, you have like 5 ships going out of numeror, there is no way they would fill that many people or horses there, the ships were too small to even fit more than 50, they just got there like the flash, and they clean the floor, there is no stakes, the battle is not well done, and it remind me of the "war" from the vampires in the last twilight movie, trying to be epic but its just cringe

Every time an orc goes to an important character he does not have a weapon, like what, or when he does he try to grapple anyway

They still keep inconsistency of orc sunlight of sometimes burning and smoking sometimes don't,

And in the end the volcano explode, like what the fuck, and Galabriel takes like some anime character, despite the blast being able to destroy houses

she is also a massive hypocrite saying to Not-sauron how vengeance is bad, when her whole point is a quest of blind vengeance, i wonder if there is multiple bad writers each one writing different scenes/episodes so that explain why shit is so inconsistency and nonsensical

[rhorle]

To clarify, he wouldn't have supported an adaptation that was wildly different from his own work.

Letter 210 indicates that isn't entirely the truth. As it implies that he would be fine with an adaptation that captures the spirit of his work and that any changes would have to convey that same spirit. So changes that make sense to the core or heart of the story is what he opposed. We can't know what he would of thought of the changes Rings of Power made. It is silly to try to argue what a person thought when none of us grew up with or around him.

The canons of narrative art in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.

...He has cut the parts of the story upon which its characteristic and peculiar tone principally depends, showing a preference for fights; and he has made no serious attempt to represent the heart of the tale adequately...

[kenn9530]

Pretty sure people will start to say "now the show is getting good, it good action", but that is far from the truth still, this is just bait, the episode was as bad written as the others

Its such a nonsensical deus ex machina that the army of numenor came in right when shits is going down, were they trying to mimic how rohan was saved? this does not work because the build up was awful, on both sides.

It is also obnoxiously inconsistent, you have like 5 ships going out of numeror, there is no way they would fill that many people or horses there, the ships were too small to even fit more than 50, they just got there like the flash, and they clean the floor, there is no stakes, the battle is not well done, and it remind me of the "war" from the vampires in the last twilight movie, trying to be epic but its just cringe

Every time an orc goes to an important character he does not have a weapon, like what, or when he does he try to grapple anyway

They still keep inconsistency of orc sunlight of sometimes burning and smoking sometimes don't,

And in the end the volcano explode, like what the fuck, and Galabriel takes like some anime character, despite the blast being able to destroy houses

she is also a massive hypocrite saying to Not-sauron how vengeance is bad, when her whole point is a quest of blind vengeance, i wonder if there is multiple bad writers each one writing different scenes/episodes so that explain why shit is so inconsistency and nonsensical

Your own opinion on if its bad or not doesnt matter, the only thing that does matter is if ppl keep watching it and that is not stopping anytime soon so you just need to accept the simple fact most ppl who watch the show actually like it and dont care about all the haters nonsensical opinions.

[InfiniteCharger]

People aren't "haters" if they don't like Rings of Power. People like Tolkien and if they make a series or movie based on Tolkien's world it should reflect his world. It doesn't matter if there is a specific story that he wrote covering the time period in question, as long as they are adhering to the 'rules' already established. Many other stories and games have done well in following the ideas of Tolkien even if they aren't literally set in that world. Elden Ring is a perfect example of this even though it is not literally set in middle earth. So if fans like Tolkien and some product comes from a third party claiming to be Tolkien and not following the rules of Tolkiens world and making up their own, then of course they have every right not to like it. It doesn't make them haters because they don't hate Tolkiens world, they just don't like a specific story or characters claiming to be in that world made by a third party. Liking or disliking a TV show isn't about hate or being a fanboi however, knocking other people's opinions because they differ from yours definitely falls into those categories. TV shows like any other product are going to have those that like them and those that don't and it nobody is obligated to like anything, nor are they required to have a detailed reason either. There are plenty of shows and movies I have not liked or wasn't interested in just based on the descriptions and some images.

[Triceron]

That contradicts your own evidence that says he wouldn't care if he got paid enough. It was his way or pay. There is no way to know if "his way" would or would not align with Rings of Power. Nothing you provided indicate that would be the case. This is why it is silly to claim that he would or would not have done something. Simon Tolkien is a consultant so the show does at least have one person from the estate involved.

Yeah but the claim was that he would have wanted to see it and fully supported and worked on a revisionist adaptation of his work like Rings of Power is right now.

Everything we know about Tolkien says otherwise. He wouldn't have been in favour of that at all.

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Letter 210 indicates that isn't entirely the truth. As it implies that he would be fine with an adaptation that captures the spirit of his work and that any changes would have to convey that same spirit. So changes that make sense to the core or heart of the story is what he opposed. We can't know what he would of thought of the changes Rings of Power made. It is silly to try to argue what a person thought when none of us grew up with or around him.

Rings of Power doesn't capture the spirit of his work, dude.

We're all pretty clear that this is a heavily revised adaptation that stands on being its own work. We've been over this multiple times now .

That's what we end up circling back to isn't it? That you bring up defense that as long as the spirit of the work is kept it's fine, then we argue for pages on why it's not, then you fall back to 'well an adaptation doesn't have to capture the spirit of the work to be enjoyable'. Then later on you completely forget you even defaulted to that comment because you're literally just looking to argue for the sake of it and don't actually have a consistent opinion on the matter.

Rings of Power is a decent show. It has its ups and downs and is overall enjoyable if you don't think deeply about the setting or plot. It's still heavily flawed when you take any time to consider the story and world building though. And overall, it reeks of being fan fiction in the Middle Earth universe.

It doesn't really feel like in spirit of Tolkien's work, and that's one of the biggest criticisms against it. Of course, as an adaptation it doesn't have to be. And that's where we pretty much agree here. Yet when you forget what's been discussed and agreed upon and bring back arguments like 'as long as its in spirit of Tolkien's work' which it's clearly not, then you're muddling the discussion again.

Like, Rings of Power is a decent show and fine as an adaptation of Tolkien's work. But it isn't in the spirit of Tolkien, and it doesn't need to be to be enjoyable.

And let's not be silly about the 'well we don't know for sure' bullshit. I don't think we need him writing a letter on his thoughts about Shelob being portrayed as a sexy lady to know he would have been against such as adaptation.

He never intended the story of the Rings of Power to be adapted as a film, period. That Amazon is even using this section to tell a story is literally a loophole in being historic material that existed in the appendixes as a part of the rights to LOTR, otherwise the Silmarillion's rights are considered off the table in general.

[rhorle]

Everything we know about Tolkien says otherwise. He wouldn't have been in favour of that at all.

That isn't true as both you and I have indicated. He would allow it for money. $250 million is money. He would be fine with something that captures the core or heart of his own tale even if there are changes. The only authority on the spirit of his story is himself. You may think it doesn't but that doesn't mean he would have agreed with you. Again you point out how silly this discussion is because you keep trying to speak for a person that you didn't even know all that well.

[Syegfryed]

Your own opinion on if its bad or not doesnt matter, the only thing that does matter is if ppl keep watching it and that is not stopping anytime soon so you just need to accept the simple fact most ppl who watch the show actually like it and dont care about all the haters nonsensical opinions.

Like i give two shits about a lot of people watching a garbage and poor written show, people can like shit all they want

Its amazing how you simple cannot make a single point in what i said - because is the truth - and your only defense "s-s-s-stop, people are watching, p-p-people are loving!!!" truly desperate.

[callipygoustp]

Does the Rings of Power series capture the spirit of Tolkiens work? No.

Is it still a success? Yes.

After watching the last couple of episodes I can't help thinking "Are people really this starved for this kind of show that they will consume this drivel/detritus?"
The ratings speak for themselves.

[Triceron]

That isn't true as both you and I have indicated. He would allow it for money. $250 million is money. He would be fine with something that captures the core or heart of his own tale even if there are changes. The only authority on the spirit of his story is himself. You may think it doesn't but that doesn't mean he would have agreed with you. Again you point out how silly this discussion is because you keep trying to speak for a person that you didn't even know all that well.

Yes, and that was specifically for Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit's story.

2nd Age was never something he wished to be adapted to film. Same with the Silmarillion. As I said, the appendices are a loophole. It's not something he would have supported in life, because he never even wrote it as an adaptable story for a different medium. It's literally a fictional historical account spanning thousands of years, backstory to help world build the Lord of the Rings, not a story that he intended to be adapted on its own.

[IIamaKing]

After watching the last couple of episodes I can't help thinking "Are people really this starved for this kind of show that they will consume this drivel/detritus?"
The ratings speak for themselves.

Personally, its pretty much the dearth of fantasy content that keeps me tuning into both HoD and RoP. Neither are really WOWing me constantly with stories or set pieces.