Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

That contradicts your own evidence that says he wouldn't care if he got paid enough. It was his way or pay. There is no way to know if "his way" would or would not align with Rings of Power. Nothing you provided indicate that would be the case. This is why it is silly to claim that he would or would not have done something. Simon Tolkien is a consultant so the show does at least have one person from the estate involved.

Yeah but the claim was that he would have wanted to see it and fully supported and worked on a revisionist adaptation of his work like Rings of Power is right now.

Everything we know about Tolkien says otherwise. He wouldn't have been in favour of that at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Letter 210 indicates that isn't entirely the truth. As it implies that he would be fine with an adaptation that captures the spirit of his work and that any changes would have to convey that same spirit. So changes that make sense to the core or heart of the story is what he opposed. We can't know what he would of thought of the changes Rings of Power made. It is silly to try to argue what a person thought when none of us grew up with or around him.

Rings of Power doesn't capture the spirit of his work, dude.

We're all pretty clear that this is a heavily revised adaptation that stands on being its own work. We've been over this multiple times now .

That's what we end up circling back to isn't it? That you bring up defense that as long as the spirit of the work is kept it's fine, then we argue for pages on why it's not, then you fall back to 'well an adaptation doesn't have to capture the spirit of the work to be enjoyable'. Then later on you completely forget you even defaulted to that comment because you're literally just looking to argue for the sake of it and don't actually have a consistent opinion on the matter.

Rings of Power is a decent show. It has its ups and downs and is overall enjoyable if you don't think deeply about the setting or plot. It's still heavily flawed when you take any time to consider the story and world building though. And overall, it reeks of being fan fiction in the Middle Earth universe.

It doesn't really feel like in spirit of Tolkien's work, and that's one of the biggest criticisms against it. Of course, as an adaptation it doesn't have to be. And that's where we pretty much agree here. Yet when you forget what's been discussed and agreed upon and bring back arguments like 'as long as its in spirit of Tolkien's work' which it's clearly not, then you're muddling the discussion again.

Like, Rings of Power is a decent show and fine as an adaptation of Tolkien's work. But it isn't in the spirit of Tolkien, and it doesn't need to be to be enjoyable.

And let's not be silly about the 'well we don't know for sure' bullshit. I don't think we need him writing a letter on his thoughts about Shelob being portrayed as a sexy lady to know he would have been against such as adaptation.

He never intended the story of the Rings of Power to be adapted as a film, period. That Amazon is even using this section to tell a story is literally a loophole in being historic material that existed in the appendixes as a part of the rights to LOTR, otherwise the Silmarillion's rights are considered off the table in general.

[rhorle]

Everything we know about Tolkien says otherwise. He wouldn't have been in favour of that at all.

That isn't true as both you and I have indicated. He would allow it for money. $250 million is money. He would be fine with something that captures the core or heart of his own tale even if there are changes. The only authority on the spirit of his story is himself. You may think it doesn't but that doesn't mean he would have agreed with you. Again you point out how silly this discussion is because you keep trying to speak for a person that you didn't even know all that well.

[Syegfryed]

Your own opinion on if its bad or not doesnt matter, the only thing that does matter is if ppl keep watching it and that is not stopping anytime soon so you just need to accept the simple fact most ppl who watch the show actually like it and dont care about all the haters nonsensical opinions.

Like i give two shits about a lot of people watching a garbage and poor written show, people can like shit all they want

Its amazing how you simple cannot make a single point in what i said - because is the truth - and your only defense "s-s-s-stop, people are watching, p-p-people are loving!!!" truly desperate.

[callipygoustp]

Does the Rings of Power series capture the spirit of Tolkiens work? No.

Is it still a success? Yes.

After watching the last couple of episodes I can't help thinking "Are people really this starved for this kind of show that they will consume this drivel/detritus?"
The ratings speak for themselves.

[Triceron]

That isn't true as both you and I have indicated. He would allow it for money. $250 million is money. He would be fine with something that captures the core or heart of his own tale even if there are changes. The only authority on the spirit of his story is himself. You may think it doesn't but that doesn't mean he would have agreed with you. Again you point out how silly this discussion is because you keep trying to speak for a person that you didn't even know all that well.

Yes, and that was specifically for Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit's story.

2nd Age was never something he wished to be adapted to film. Same with the Silmarillion. As I said, the appendices are a loophole. It's not something he would have supported in life, because he never even wrote it as an adaptable story for a different medium. It's literally a fictional historical account spanning thousands of years, backstory to help world build the Lord of the Rings, not a story that he intended to be adapted on its own.

[IIamaKing]

After watching the last couple of episodes I can't help thinking "Are people really this starved for this kind of show that they will consume this drivel/detritus?"
The ratings speak for themselves.

Personally, its pretty much the dearth of fantasy content that keeps me tuning into both HoD and RoP. Neither are really WOWing me constantly with stories or set pieces.

[DarkAmbient]

Did I miss the part where Galadriel and her friends knew about the attack on the village or even knew that the village existed? Genuine question.

[Triceron]

Did I miss the part where Galadriel and her friends knew about the attack on the village or even knew that the village existed? Genuine question.

They loosely implied that last episode with Halbrand pointing where the Orcs would go. Everything else is movie magic plot convenience, like has been commonly happening throughout the series

[rhorle]

Yes, and that was specifically for Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit's story.

So do you have evidence that said he would think of other parts of work differently? Rights were sold regardless. It was only a loophole in the original deal that allowed Amazon to buy the current rights. You are literally arguing that you know the mind of Tolkien and what he would and would not approved of. That is silly.

- - - Updated - - -

Did I miss the part where Galadriel and her friends knew about the attack on the village or even knew that the village existed? Genuine question.

In a previous episode Halbrand indicated where he thought the Orcs were going when he fled. Episode 5 around 15:40. "Further south, I should think. Towards the watchtower of Ostirith".

[Triceron]

So do you have evidence that said he would think of other parts of work differently? Rights were sold regardless. It was only a loophole in the original deal that allowed Amazon to buy the current rights. You are literally arguing that you know the mind of Tolkien and what he would and would not approved of. That is silly.

Someone suggested he would have if he were alive. That is the context.

Tolkien never intended the appendices or Silmarillion or the 2nd Age to be adapted. You would actually be the one needing proof to defend the argument that he would have been okay with it. What I'm presenting is literally based on what we already know of Tolkien in life, his intentions till death.

Where can you point to Tolkien being okay with the 2nd age being adapted at all? Everything you mention is specifically about the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings. The reason Amazon are free to adapting the 2nd age now, without staunch criticisms from the creators, is because JRR Tolkien snd Christopher Tolkien are both dead.

[rhorle]

Tolkien never intended the appendices or Silmarillion or the 2nd Age to be adapted.

And yet he sold the rights to those things along with the rest. Can you point explicitly to him not being okay with those things being adapted? As the quotes you provided do not say that. Amazon can adapt the things they have now because the Tolkien Estate sued over digital gambling using Tolkien's stuff. They claimed the rights sold didn't allow that. That is when they discovered the loop hole in the rights previously sold or got those rights in a settlement.

It has nothing to do with Christopher being dead as he died in 2020. The rights were being shopped and bought in 2017 with Christopher Tolkien being involved. The Son of Christopher is also involved as a consultant on the show.

[kenn9530]

Like i give two shits about a lot of people watching a garbage and poor written show, people can like shit all they want

Its amazing how you simple cannot make a single point in what i said - because is the truth - and your only defense "s-s-s-stop, people are watching, p-p-people are loving!!!" truly desperate.

All you have is your own opinions, not everyone agrees with anything you have said, you are so desperate to hate stuff as with many things on this forum but more ppl like all the things you seem to hate so its more about your lack of good taste than anything, if it was as bad as you seem to think it was it wouldnt be as successful as it currently is. All of what you said is not backed up by anything because its purely subjective to the person.

[Triceron]

And yet he sold the rights to those things along with the rest. Can you point explicitly to him not being okay with those things being adapted? As the quotes you provided do not say that. Amazon can adapt the things they have now because the Tolkien Estate sued over digital gambling using Tolkien's stuff. They claimed the rights sold didn't allow that. That is when they discovered the loop hole in the rights previously sold or got those rights in a settlement.

It has nothing to do with Christopher being dead as he died in 2020. The rights were being shopped and bought in 2017 with Christopher Tolkien being involved. The Son of Christopher is also involved as a consultant on the show.

Yes, you can literally read that he sold the rights because he literally thought LOTR was a unfilmable and sought to make money of it not caring much of the repercussions. That all ended up falling to Christopher Tolkien being a vocal critic of said adaptations, but that's a different story.

[rhorle]

Yes, you can literally read that he sold the rights because he literally thought LOTR was a unfilmable and sought to make money of it not caring much of the repercussions. That all ended up falling to Christopher Tolkien being a vocal critic of said adaptations, but that's a different story.

So he didn't care about adaptations being made. Yet he somehow would have cared specifically about Rings of Power even though he made no comments about Rings of Power. Strange.

[Triceron]

So he didn't care about adaptations being made. Yet he somehow would have cared specifically about Rings of Power even though he made no comments about Rings of Power. Strange.

The context is whether he would have written and contributed to a Rings of Power adaptation if he were merely alive today.

Now, based on what we know of Tolkien and literally selling the rights because he didn't care and only did it for the money, how would you reasonably conclude how he would have approached an adaptation of appendices material.

Again, proof would be on you to suggest he would have been involved with such a project. Everything we know about his history with liscencing deals otherwise implies the opposite

[rhorle]

Again, proof would be on you to suggest he would have been involved with such a project. Everything we know about his history with liscencing deals otherwise implies the opposite

I said no one can determine if he would or would not. As we are not JRR Tolkien and can't decide what he felt kept the core or heart of his story. The burden is on you to prove he would deny the adaptation if that is the point you are arguing. Everything we know of Tolkien doesn't give an answer either way. As he wasn't opposed to every adaptation.

[bledgor]

The context is whether he would have written and contributed to a Rings of Power adaptation if he were merely alive today.

Now, based on what we know of Tolkien and literally selling the rights because he didn't care and only did it for the money, how would you reasonably conclude how he would have approached an adaptation of appendices material.

Again, proof would be on you to suggest he would have been involved with such a project. Everything we know about his history with liscencing deals otherwise implies the opposite

I wouldn't say he didn't care, just he cared more for the money/making sure he could take care of his family.

[Triceron]

I said no one can determine if he would or would not. As we are not JRR Tolkien and can't decide what he felt kept the core or heart of his story. The burden is on you to prove he would deny the adaptation if that is the point you are arguing. Everything we know of Tolkien doesn't give an answer either way. As he wasn't opposed to every adaptation.

The proof is that he wouldn't have supported any adaptation directly, just as he was hands off with LOTR adaptations after he sold the rights.

The proof is in the fact he sold the rights, no?

We're literally talking about whether he would get involved with a massive revisionist adaptation of his work, and we know he wasn't even favouring that for LOTR and ended up selling the rights entirely. How are you spinning this to imply he would suddenly be involved in adapting the appendices?

Sure, no one knows either way because he is dead, but we're talking IF he were still alive right? There is no concrete proof and evidence for the discussion of speculation, so I'm not sure what you're even asking for.

[rhorle]

The proof is that he wouldn't have supported any adaptation directly, just as he was hands off with LOTR adaptations after he sold the rights.

That isn't true. As he has looked at scripts and as I pointed out to you stated that the issue was around adaptations that keep or don't keep the core or heart of an authors work. There is no way to answer what he would have done if he was still alive because again you don't know what he did or did not consider the core/heart of his work. Only he could decide that.

If there is no evidence for the discussion of speculation then why have you speculated that he wouldn't have approved of Rings of Power? You just confirmed what I've been saying all along. That it is silly to say what he would have done one way or the other because we are not Tolkien.

[Triceron]

That isn't true. As he has looked at scripts and as I pointed out to you stated that the issue was around adaptations that keep or don't keep the core or heart of an authors work. There is no way to answer what he would have done if he was still alive because again you don't know what he did or did not consider the core/heart of his work. Only he could decide that.

If there is no evidence for the discussion of speculation then why have you speculated that he wouldn't have approved of Rings of Power? You just confirmed what I've been saying all along. That it is silly to say what he would have done one way or the other because we are not Tolkien.

He looked at scripts adapting what exactly? Anything covering 2nd age? Anything involving heavy time compression?

Again, we are talking about Rings of Power level of adaptation. What you are talking about are scripts that are directly adapting LOTR, not a completely new thing that is only loosely being based on his work.