1. #5881
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
    Did - in Tolkien tradition - the Numenor army get carried there by the eagles or something? I mean, that army sure got there fast and they somehow knew exactly where they had to go? Did I miss Halbrand knowing where the orcs were heading?
    Sailing never made logical sense in LOTR. It's one out that the showrunners get. Space and time just break on the water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Things happening = good. The writing = bad. Galadriel the Wise didn't think to unwrap the object to see if it was the hilt. Neither did Arondir, nor did he notice it was now suspiciously axe-shaped. Totally-Not-Sauron didn't check it because he wanted the ploy to work. (Oh and did you notice his weapon of choice was a spear, the same weapon he - I mean Sauron - was holding during the brief flashback at the start of the show).
    You could say it was magic that kept anyone from opening any one of the packages because that's how magic works in Middle Earth. It can be as much as occasional sparks and flames as it can be influencing the minds of others ie the rings.

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  2. #5882
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
    Did - in Tolkien tradition - the Numenor army get carried there by the eagles or something? I mean, that army sure got there fast and they somehow knew exactly where they had to go? Did I miss Halbrand knowing where the orcs were heading?
    In a previous episode Halbrand guessed that the orcs were heading towards Ostirith/Tower and surrounding villages based on the direction they were traveling when he fled.
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  3. #5883
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    You could say it was magic that kept anyone from opening any one of the packages because that's how magic works in Middle Earth. It can be as much as occasional sparks and flames as it can be influencing the minds of others ie the rings.
    You could tell the influence of the ring. Jackson showed it and characters acted it.
    This idea of solving things by just labeling it as "magic" is just bad. Something doesn't make sense or is told in a bad way? Magic.
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  4. #5884
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    You could tell the influence of the ring. Jackson showed it and characters acted it.
    This idea of solving things by just labeling it as "magic" is just bad. Something doesn't make sense or is told in a bad way? Magic.
    How could it not be the hilt influencing people to not check any of the bundles. Sauron puts a lot of power into his artifacts. If the rings can influence vast areas over great distances, surely the hilt can momentarily influence people in a relatively smaller area.

    It could just be bad writing. I'm just saying magic in LOTR has always been wishy washy and a convenient 'out' when things aren't properly explained.
    Last edited by PACOX; 2022-09-30 at 04:33 PM.

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  5. #5885
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    The show was advertised as being true to the source material was it not? Is critiquing it because it didn’t do as it said, on such an enormous level, not warrant in your eyes?
    For one they dont have the rights as far as im aware for all the source material, just what the films were allowed to do so it was not advertised as an exact adaptation at all, tolkien also didnt write a story in the time RoP is active so noone but tolkien can actually say if its not something he would of done or not anyway and it doesnt mean it isnt still following the story of LOTR, hardcore fans are the absolute worst because if something is even a fraction away from what they believe something should be they just wont like it, while most normal fans that like the films wont care and still like the show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
    Did - in Tolkien tradition - the Numenor army get carried there by the eagles or something? I mean, that army sure got there fast and they somehow knew exactly where they had to go? Did I miss Halbrand knowing where the orcs were heading?

    Other than that, this is the best episode so far. Happy to give this a 7, even a 7.5. Solid.
    The southlands aka mordor only has a few access points anyway so if you have a general direction you will know where they would be headed pretty easily. Even more so if you are needing to get an army there with access.
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  6. #5886
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    How could it not be the hilt influencing people to not check any of the bundles. Sauron puts a lot of power into his artifacts. If the rings can influence vast areas over great distances, surely the hilt can momentarily influence people in a relatively smaller area.

    It could just be bad writing. I'm just saying magic in LOTR has always been wishy washy and a convenient 'out' when things aren't properly explained.
    It can be. Showrunners didn't care to make a case for it... they just straight up ignored it until the final minute. Even the characters seemed to have forgot about it.

    The hilt was never shown or referenced from the moment Arondir said "He has it, you can't let him get away with it" to Galadriel starting the chase.
    There's nothing from this moment to the reveal of the axe and the scene following it indicating anyone ever got influenced by it. No one looked at it, they didn't even show them bringing it back. Nothing was shown of it being passed around, it wasn't even shown to be guarded or handed back to Arondir.

    If you want to explain it away with the hilt influencing them you have to SHOW the hilt influencing people. Not just ignore it and then hope people just think "magic lol".
    Have someone grab the package and maybe try and open it up but then be reluctant to it and decide not to. Then you have some grounds in assuming there is an power at play. That would actually be interesting to see. So why not show it?

    Most shows actually shows how things happen but if we just gonna explain everything with magic off screen then what's the point in even having a series? It's usually the how's that are interesting to watch. I want to see how Adar swapped it out fooling them. I want to see the old man stealing the hilt (if that's what happened) etc etc.

    Sauron can just appear at the start of next episode ring in hand and Southlands turned into Mordor, most men enslaved and key characters turned into ring-wraiths and if anyone askes why or how this happened? Well, off-screen and some magic! Fucking viewers, make up the story yourself!
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-30 at 04:52 PM.
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  7. #5887
    I wonder why the army of torch-bearing orcs chose not to burn the wooden doors and straw roofs of the village they were attacking. Seems like a schoolboy error.

  8. #5888
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    I wonder why the army of torch-bearing orcs chose not to burn the wooden doors and straw roofs of the village they were attacking. Seems like a schoolboy error.
    Isn't it because they wanted them alive to find where the hilt was hidden?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    You could tell the influence of the ring. Jackson showed it and characters acted it.
    This idea of solving things by just labeling it as "magic" is just bad. Something doesn't make sense or is told in a bad way? Magic.
    Did you not watch the scene of Theo talking about how he felt a power when he had it? It shows there is "magic" in the hilt that we've already seen displayed previously as well. Adar also smirks/glances in the barn scene to hint that he had a secret plan all along. Could it have been checked? Sure, but it's not like it is that unreasonable that they might not be "perfect" or that the power of the hilt helped influence it.
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  9. #5889
    Ah right. Yes, that must be why they were attacking and killing villagers, because they wanted them alive.

  10. #5890
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    tolkien also didnt write a story in the time RoP is active so noone but tolkien can actually say if its not something he would of done or not anyway
    We actually know enough that he would have never wanted to adapt any of his material to the big screen, certainly not in a revisionist compressed timeline that would suit a TV series. He sold the rights for them and otherwise had no direct interest in how faithful the adaptations were to his original work.

    This show is literally standing on its own legs regardless of what Tolkien would have done.

  11. #5891
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Ah right. Yes, that must be why they were attacking and killing villagers, because they wanted them alive.
    Adar wanted some of them alive. Burning the entire building down wouldn't allow them to use lives as a way to compel Arondir (or Theo) of telling them the hiding place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    We actually know enough that he would have never wanted to adapt any of his material to the big screen, certainly not in a revisionist compressed timeline that would suit a TV series. He sold the rights for them and otherwise had no direct interest in how faithful the adaptations were to his original work.
    That is a contradiction. He didn't want his work adapted yet still sold the rights which allowed adaptations. Letter 210 doesn't imply he is against adaptations but against what he would find to be a poor one. He also states that it is hard for an author to see their work changed so his response may be overly harsh and that isn't his true intent. Trying to claim what Tolkien would think of this adaptation is silly. He isn't alive to render judgement.
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  12. #5892
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    We actually know enough that he would have never wanted to adapt any of his material to the big screen, certainly not in a revisionist compressed timeline that would suit a TV series. He sold the rights for them and otherwise had no direct interest in how faithful the adaptations were to his original work.

    This show is literally standing on its own legs regardless of what Tolkien would have done.
    How do you know what he would want he is dead, as time passes ppl change and if it didnt get adapted to the big screen then LOTRs would of fell into obscurity because without the films the books would never of sold as many since it struggled to sell 50 million over many decades, the films are what made the series a large success, the books on thier own did good but not great, you can also say it may of never of sold that many without the films as the films came out in 2001 and the book sales didnt reach 50 mill until 2003.

    Book writers know there has to be changes when it gets put on tv/films so if he didnt want it to be that way he wouldnt of sold the rights in the first place. Its impossible to do a book series faithfully unless the series is going to go on as long as supernatural then you might be able to fit everything in but other than that its not going to happen.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2022-09-30 at 05:58 PM.
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  13. #5893
    Seriously bugs me how they never bothered to check the hilt after catching Adar right away, so damn obvious...

  14. #5894
    I seriously don't like the slow-mo scenes that are supposed to make you feel something.

    Remember Haldir's death in Helm's Deep? Yeah it was slow-mo, but goddamn it had an effect. Human lady getting arrowed and living? Why the slow-mo? It's just... it's like they're trying to be cringe on purpose.

  15. #5895
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    How do you know what he would want he is dead,
    Just look up his interviews and the comments his son has made in retrospect. Tolkien was adamant that his work was unadaptable as a movie. And considering he is dead, that is an opinion that dies with him.

    I mean it's not like this was not known.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midd...ch%20proposals.

    Tolkien watched films,[1] but always had a mistrust of the medium[2] and of his books' suitability for dramatization.[3] He had received fanmail on the matter, some proposing to adapt the works to film and some encouraging him to refuse such proposals.[3] Tolkien and his publishers, Allen and Unwin, were willing to play along with film proposals, on condition of having a veto on creative decisions or relinquishing those for a sufficient sum of money.[4]

    Basically he either gets last say on creative decisions, or give it up entirely for a lot of money. He wouldn't have supported a rewrite in the way Rings of Power's story has been presented. It would be his way, or the highway.

    Like, you're right that book writers acknowledge there have to be changes. And his plan would have either been to have control to veto any changes he didn't like, or else give up that entire right for lots of money and just not support it at all. He wouldn't involve himself in a major reimagining of his own work like you seem to suggest could happen if he were alive today. The opposite is true, and we even see that living out in how Christopher Tolkien was so protective of his father's work, even outright saying he hated the PJ movies. At that point they didn't have the film rights at all so CT had no power over the creative decisions of the PJ movies.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-30 at 07:35 PM.

  16. #5896
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Just look up his interviews and the comments his son has made in retrospect. Tolkien was adamant that his work was unadaptable as a movie. And considering he is dead, that is an opinion that dies with him.

    I mean it's not like this was not known.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midd...ch%20proposals.
    He allowed the rights to be sold to make a movie so what he says is that he wasnt against it being made into a film/tv series but the reality is you cant make a faithfull version of it no matter what from the book, so no matter how good a tv series or movie is fans cant really complain its not tolkien enough because its simply impossible.
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  17. #5897
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    He allowed the rights to be sold to make a movie so what he says is that he wasnt against it being made into a film/tv series but the reality is you cant make a faithfull version of it no matter what from the book, so no matter how good a tv series or movie is fans cant really complain its not tolkien enough because its simply impossible.
    Fans can because what 'Tolkien' is to them is a subjective value.

    Like if Blizzard made a new game that they called Starcraft Neo that was a Doom-style first person shooter about killing demons in space and it didn't have Terran, Protoss or Zerg in it, then fans have a legitimate reason to say it isn't very 'Starcraft' at all. Familiarity and theme is a big part of what people consider part of a series. You can slap the Starcraft name on a product but that doesn't mean fans will automatically regard it as being true to what they think the 'Starcraft' brand is about.

    Same backlash happened recently with Masters of the Universe Revelations and some fans deeming it not ver 'He-Man'. That's what it is to them, and that's a legitimate opinion to have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That is a contradiction. He didn't want his work adapted yet still sold the rights which allowed adaptations. Letter 210 doesn't imply he is against adaptations but against what he would find to be a poor one. He also states that it is hard for an author to see their work changed so his response may be overly harsh and that isn't his true intent. Trying to claim what Tolkien would think of this adaptation is silly. He isn't alive to render judgement.
    To clarify, he wouldn't have supported an adaptation that was wildly different from his own work.

    Selling the rights for money doesn't mean he wants to see it happen, it means he prioritized business and making money over caring about his personal fee fees. Like selling a house you don't want to sell, but the offer too good to turn down.

    I mean in retrospect, this is pretty much the case. He got to the point where he was able to live with the decision to sell the rights for big money. Doesn't mean he did it because he actually wanted to see his work being made into movies, and we have a lot of info regarding how tumultuous it was when he got directly involved with the productions.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-30 at 07:52 PM.

  18. #5898
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Fans can because what 'Tolkien' is to them is a subjective value.

    Like if Blizzard made a new game that they called Starcraft Neo that was a Doom-style first person shooter about killing demons in space and it didn't have Terran, Protoss or Zerg in it, then fans have a legitimate reason to say it isn't very 'Starcraft' at all. Familiarity and theme is a big part of what people consider part of a series. You can slap the Starcraft name on a product but that doesn't mean fans will automatically regard it as being true to what they think the 'Starcraft' brand is about.

    Same backlash happened recently with Masters of the Universe Revelations and some fans deeming it not ver 'He-Man'. That's what it is to them, and that's a legitimate opinion to have.
    The only one that can claim what is relevant to being tolkien or not is the man himself, fans have no say in whats considered tolkien or not because you dont know the man himself or his actual thoughts on everything, for all that you know amazon writers could be going by notes left by tolkien himself on what he possibly wanted from doing a story in the era of RoP, fans opinions dont matter what matters is if the series gets enough viewers or not to be worth it and so far it exceeds all other tv shows released so far in terms of viewers.

    A book doesnt always make a good film or series, most of tolkiens success was due to the films being good, without the films most ppl wouldnt of ever heard of LOTRs.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2022-09-30 at 08:02 PM.
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  19. #5899
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Basically he either gets last say on creative decisions, or give it up entirely for a lot of money. He wouldn't have supported a rewrite in the way Rings of Power's story has been presented. It would be his way, or the highway.
    That contradicts your own evidence that says he wouldn't care if he got paid enough. It was his way or pay. There is no way to know if "his way" would or would not align with Rings of Power. Nothing you provided indicate that would be the case. This is why it is silly to claim that he would or would not have done something. Simon Tolkien is a consultant so the show does at least have one person from the estate involved.
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  20. #5900
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Pretty sure people will start to say "now the show is getting good, it good action", but that is far from the truth still, this is just bait, the episode was as bad written as the others

    Its such a nonsensical deus ex machina that the army of numenor came in right when shits is going down, were they trying to mimic how rohan was saved? this does not work because the build up was awful, on both sides.

    It is also obnoxiously inconsistent, you have like 5 ships going out of numeror, there is no way they would fill that many people or horses there, the ships were too small to even fit more than 50, they just got there like the flash, and they clean the floor, there is no stakes, the battle is not well done, and it remind me of the "war" from the vampires in the last twilight movie, trying to be epic but its just cringe

    Every time an orc goes to an important character he does not have a weapon, like what, or when he does he try to grapple anyway

    They still keep inconsistency of orc sunlight of sometimes burning and smoking sometimes don't,

    And in the end the volcano explode, like what the fuck, and Galabriel takes like some anime character, despite the blast being able to destroy houses

    she is also a massive hypocrite saying to Not-sauron how vengeance is bad, when her whole point is a quest of blind vengeance, i wonder if there is multiple bad writers each one writing different scenes/episodes so that explain why shit is so inconsistency and nonsensical

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