1. #5901
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    To clarify, he wouldn't have supported an adaptation that was wildly different from his own work.
    Letter 210 indicates that isn't entirely the truth. As it implies that he would be fine with an adaptation that captures the spirit of his work and that any changes would have to convey that same spirit. So changes that make sense to the core or heart of the story is what he opposed. We can't know what he would of thought of the changes Rings of Power made. It is silly to try to argue what a person thought when none of us grew up with or around him.

    The canons of narrative art in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.

    ...He has cut the parts of the story upon which its characteristic and peculiar tone principally depends, showing a preference for fights; and he has made no serious attempt to represent the heart of the tale adequately...
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #5902
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Pretty sure people will start to say "now the show is getting good, it good action", but that is far from the truth still, this is just bait, the episode was as bad written as the others

    Its such a nonsensical deus ex machina that the army of numenor came in right when shits is going down, were they trying to mimic how rohan was saved? this does not work because the build up was awful, on both sides.

    It is also obnoxiously inconsistent, you have like 5 ships going out of numeror, there is no way they would fill that many people or horses there, the ships were too small to even fit more than 50, they just got there like the flash, and they clean the floor, there is no stakes, the battle is not well done, and it remind me of the "war" from the vampires in the last twilight movie, trying to be epic but its just cringe

    Every time an orc goes to an important character he does not have a weapon, like what, or when he does he try to grapple anyway

    They still keep inconsistency of orc sunlight of sometimes burning and smoking sometimes don't,

    And in the end the volcano explode, like what the fuck, and Galabriel takes like some anime character, despite the blast being able to destroy houses

    she is also a massive hypocrite saying to Not-sauron how vengeance is bad, when her whole point is a quest of blind vengeance, i wonder if there is multiple bad writers each one writing different scenes/episodes so that explain why shit is so inconsistency and nonsensical
    Your own opinion on if its bad or not doesnt matter, the only thing that does matter is if ppl keep watching it and that is not stopping anytime soon so you just need to accept the simple fact most ppl who watch the show actually like it and dont care about all the haters nonsensical opinions.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  3. #5903
    People aren't "haters" if they don't like Rings of Power. People like Tolkien and if they make a series or movie based on Tolkien's world it should reflect his world. It doesn't matter if there is a specific story that he wrote covering the time period in question, as long as they are adhering to the 'rules' already established. Many other stories and games have done well in following the ideas of Tolkien even if they aren't literally set in that world. Elden Ring is a perfect example of this even though it is not literally set in middle earth. So if fans like Tolkien and some product comes from a third party claiming to be Tolkien and not following the rules of Tolkiens world and making up their own, then of course they have every right not to like it. It doesn't make them haters because they don't hate Tolkiens world, they just don't like a specific story or characters claiming to be in that world made by a third party. Liking or disliking a TV show isn't about hate or being a fanboi however, knocking other people's opinions because they differ from yours definitely falls into those categories. TV shows like any other product are going to have those that like them and those that don't and it nobody is obligated to like anything, nor are they required to have a detailed reason either. There are plenty of shows and movies I have not liked or wasn't interested in just based on the descriptions and some images.

  4. #5904
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That contradicts your own evidence that says he wouldn't care if he got paid enough. It was his way or pay. There is no way to know if "his way" would or would not align with Rings of Power. Nothing you provided indicate that would be the case. This is why it is silly to claim that he would or would not have done something. Simon Tolkien is a consultant so the show does at least have one person from the estate involved.
    Yeah but the claim was that he would have wanted to see it and fully supported and worked on a revisionist adaptation of his work like Rings of Power is right now.

    Everything we know about Tolkien says otherwise. He wouldn't have been in favour of that at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Letter 210 indicates that isn't entirely the truth. As it implies that he would be fine with an adaptation that captures the spirit of his work and that any changes would have to convey that same spirit. So changes that make sense to the core or heart of the story is what he opposed. We can't know what he would of thought of the changes Rings of Power made. It is silly to try to argue what a person thought when none of us grew up with or around him.
    Rings of Power doesn't capture the spirit of his work, dude.

    We're all pretty clear that this is a heavily revised adaptation that stands on being its own work. We've been over this multiple times now .

    That's what we end up circling back to isn't it? That you bring up defense that as long as the spirit of the work is kept it's fine, then we argue for pages on why it's not, then you fall back to 'well an adaptation doesn't have to capture the spirit of the work to be enjoyable'. Then later on you completely forget you even defaulted to that comment because you're literally just looking to argue for the sake of it and don't actually have a consistent opinion on the matter.

    Rings of Power is a decent show. It has its ups and downs and is overall enjoyable if you don't think deeply about the setting or plot. It's still heavily flawed when you take any time to consider the story and world building though. And overall, it reeks of being fan fiction in the Middle Earth universe.

    It doesn't really feel like in spirit of Tolkien's work, and that's one of the biggest criticisms against it. Of course, as an adaptation it doesn't have to be. And that's where we pretty much agree here. Yet when you forget what's been discussed and agreed upon and bring back arguments like 'as long as its in spirit of Tolkien's work' which it's clearly not, then you're muddling the discussion again.

    Like, Rings of Power is a decent show and fine as an adaptation of Tolkien's work. But it isn't in the spirit of Tolkien, and it doesn't need to be to be enjoyable.

    And let's not be silly about the 'well we don't know for sure' bullshit. I don't think we need him writing a letter on his thoughts about Shelob being portrayed as a sexy lady to know he would have been against such as adaptation.

    He never intended the story of the Rings of Power to be adapted as a film, period. That Amazon is even using this section to tell a story is literally a loophole in being historic material that existed in the appendixes as a part of the rights to LOTR, otherwise the Silmarillion's rights are considered off the table in general.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-30 at 08:41 PM.

  5. #5905
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Everything we know about Tolkien says otherwise. He wouldn't have been in favour of that at all.
    That isn't true as both you and I have indicated. He would allow it for money. $250 million is money. He would be fine with something that captures the core or heart of his own tale even if there are changes. The only authority on the spirit of his story is himself. You may think it doesn't but that doesn't mean he would have agreed with you. Again you point out how silly this discussion is because you keep trying to speak for a person that you didn't even know all that well.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #5906
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    19,832
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Your own opinion on if its bad or not doesnt matter, the only thing that does matter is if ppl keep watching it and that is not stopping anytime soon so you just need to accept the simple fact most ppl who watch the show actually like it and dont care about all the haters nonsensical opinions.
    Like i give two shits about a lot of people watching a garbage and poor written show, people can like shit all they want

    Its amazing how you simple cannot make a single point in what i said - because is the truth - and your only defense "s-s-s-stop, people are watching, p-p-people are loving!!!" truly desperate.

  7. #5907
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    8,671
    Does the Rings of Power series capture the spirit of Tolkiens work? No.

    Is it still a success? Yes.

    After watching the last couple of episodes I can't help thinking "Are people really this starved for this kind of show that they will consume this drivel/detritus?"
    The ratings speak for themselves.

  8. #5908
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That isn't true as both you and I have indicated. He would allow it for money. $250 million is money. He would be fine with something that captures the core or heart of his own tale even if there are changes. The only authority on the spirit of his story is himself. You may think it doesn't but that doesn't mean he would have agreed with you. Again you point out how silly this discussion is because you keep trying to speak for a person that you didn't even know all that well.
    Yes, and that was specifically for Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit's story.

    2nd Age was never something he wished to be adapted to film. Same with the Silmarillion. As I said, the appendices are a loophole. It's not something he would have supported in life, because he never even wrote it as an adaptable story for a different medium. It's literally a fictional historical account spanning thousands of years, backstory to help world build the Lord of the Rings, not a story that he intended to be adapted on its own.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-30 at 09:07 PM.

  9. #5909
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    After watching the last couple of episodes I can't help thinking "Are people really this starved for this kind of show that they will consume this drivel/detritus?"
    The ratings speak for themselves.
    Personally, its pretty much the dearth of fantasy content that keeps me tuning into both HoD and RoP. Neither are really WOWing me constantly with stories or set pieces.
    READ and be less Ignorant.

  10. #5910
    Did I miss the part where Galadriel and her friends knew about the attack on the village or even knew that the village existed? Genuine question.

  11. #5911
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Did I miss the part where Galadriel and her friends knew about the attack on the village or even knew that the village existed? Genuine question.
    They loosely implied that last episode with Halbrand pointing where the Orcs would go. Everything else is movie magic plot convenience, like has been commonly happening throughout the series

  12. #5912
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, and that was specifically for Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit's story.
    So do you have evidence that said he would think of other parts of work differently? Rights were sold regardless. It was only a loophole in the original deal that allowed Amazon to buy the current rights. You are literally arguing that you know the mind of Tolkien and what he would and would not approved of. That is silly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Did I miss the part where Galadriel and her friends knew about the attack on the village or even knew that the village existed? Genuine question.
    In a previous episode Halbrand indicated where he thought the Orcs were going when he fled. Episode 5 around 15:40. "Further south, I should think. Towards the watchtower of Ostirith".
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #5913
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So do you have evidence that said he would think of other parts of work differently? Rights were sold regardless. It was only a loophole in the original deal that allowed Amazon to buy the current rights. You are literally arguing that you know the mind of Tolkien and what he would and would not approved of. That is silly.
    Someone suggested he would have if he were alive. That is the context.

    Tolkien never intended the appendices or Silmarillion or the 2nd Age to be adapted. You would actually be the one needing proof to defend the argument that he would have been okay with it. What I'm presenting is literally based on what we already know of Tolkien in life, his intentions till death.

    Where can you point to Tolkien being okay with the 2nd age being adapted at all? Everything you mention is specifically about the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings. The reason Amazon are free to adapting the 2nd age now, without staunch criticisms from the creators, is because JRR Tolkien snd Christopher Tolkien are both dead.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-30 at 09:44 PM.

  14. #5914
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Tolkien never intended the appendices or Silmarillion or the 2nd Age to be adapted.
    And yet he sold the rights to those things along with the rest. Can you point explicitly to him not being okay with those things being adapted? As the quotes you provided do not say that. Amazon can adapt the things they have now because the Tolkien Estate sued over digital gambling using Tolkien's stuff. They claimed the rights sold didn't allow that. That is when they discovered the loop hole in the rights previously sold or got those rights in a settlement.

    It has nothing to do with Christopher being dead as he died in 2020. The rights were being shopped and bought in 2017 with Christopher Tolkien being involved. The Son of Christopher is also involved as a consultant on the show.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #5915
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Like i give two shits about a lot of people watching a garbage and poor written show, people can like shit all they want

    Its amazing how you simple cannot make a single point in what i said - because is the truth - and your only defense "s-s-s-stop, people are watching, p-p-people are loving!!!" truly desperate.
    All you have is your own opinions, not everyone agrees with anything you have said, you are so desperate to hate stuff as with many things on this forum but more ppl like all the things you seem to hate so its more about your lack of good taste than anything, if it was as bad as you seem to think it was it wouldnt be as successful as it currently is. All of what you said is not backed up by anything because its purely subjective to the person.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  16. #5916
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And yet he sold the rights to those things along with the rest. Can you point explicitly to him not being okay with those things being adapted? As the quotes you provided do not say that. Amazon can adapt the things they have now because the Tolkien Estate sued over digital gambling using Tolkien's stuff. They claimed the rights sold didn't allow that. That is when they discovered the loop hole in the rights previously sold or got those rights in a settlement.

    It has nothing to do with Christopher being dead as he died in 2020. The rights were being shopped and bought in 2017 with Christopher Tolkien being involved. The Son of Christopher is also involved as a consultant on the show.
    Yes, you can literally read that he sold the rights because he literally thought LOTR was a unfilmable and sought to make money of it not caring much of the repercussions. That all ended up falling to Christopher Tolkien being a vocal critic of said adaptations, but that's a different story.

  17. #5917
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, you can literally read that he sold the rights because he literally thought LOTR was a unfilmable and sought to make money of it not caring much of the repercussions. That all ended up falling to Christopher Tolkien being a vocal critic of said adaptations, but that's a different story.
    So he didn't care about adaptations being made. Yet he somehow would have cared specifically about Rings of Power even though he made no comments about Rings of Power. Strange.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #5918
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So he didn't care about adaptations being made. Yet he somehow would have cared specifically about Rings of Power even though he made no comments about Rings of Power. Strange.
    The context is whether he would have written and contributed to a Rings of Power adaptation if he were merely alive today.

    Now, based on what we know of Tolkien and literally selling the rights because he didn't care and only did it for the money, how would you reasonably conclude how he would have approached an adaptation of appendices material.

    Again, proof would be on you to suggest he would have been involved with such a project. Everything we know about his history with liscencing deals otherwise implies the opposite

  19. #5919
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Again, proof would be on you to suggest he would have been involved with such a project. Everything we know about his history with liscencing deals otherwise implies the opposite
    I said no one can determine if he would or would not. As we are not JRR Tolkien and can't decide what he felt kept the core or heart of his story. The burden is on you to prove he would deny the adaptation if that is the point you are arguing. Everything we know of Tolkien doesn't give an answer either way. As he wasn't opposed to every adaptation.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #5920
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The context is whether he would have written and contributed to a Rings of Power adaptation if he were merely alive today.

    Now, based on what we know of Tolkien and literally selling the rights because he didn't care and only did it for the money, how would you reasonably conclude how he would have approached an adaptation of appendices material.

    Again, proof would be on you to suggest he would have been involved with such a project. Everything we know about his history with liscencing deals otherwise implies the opposite
    I wouldn't say he didn't care, just he cared more for the money/making sure he could take care of his family.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •