Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

He looked at scripts adapting what exactly? Anything covering 2nd age? Anything involving heavy time compression?

Prove that Tolkien thought adaptations of his other works were seen differently. Why would he, or anyone, feel different just because it "wasn't a book"?

[bledgor]

Anyone who believes Tolkien would actually be okay/on board with the RoP "adaptation" is a troll, a troll no one should engage/encourage by talking to.

[Bakis]

Read an interesting article about the serie and why it has gone down badly to so many.

One of the things it mentioned was that Amazon only payed to use IP from the 3 LotR books which is kind of important cos it means Amazon are not allowed to base any part of the production on lore not specifically mentioned in the 3 LotR books.
Which saves a ton of cash but when the serie is being played out before said books it explains some of the lore stuff errors that bugs the shit out of many viewers.
Shortcuts biting Amazon in the ass.

[Triceron]

Prove that Tolkien thought adaptations of his other works were seen differently. Why would he, or anyone, feel different just because it "wasn't a book"?

He wasn't even supportive of LOTR adaptations for the most part, defaulting to selling the rights entirely and deeming it unfilmable.

What you're arguing is pure delusion, buddy. He was never all that supportive of LOTR adaptations after literally having a hand in the process multiple times, that is the takeaway.

If he were still alive today he wouldn't act as his younger self prior to going through that process and being hopefully optimistic from reading scripts and getting involved. He would be jaded and accepting of just selling the rights and not involving himself at all.

You're literally pointing at Tolkien as if personified before he sold the rights. That isn't what he would be if he were alive today.

[rhorle]

He wasn't even supportive of LOTR adaptations for the most part, defaulting to selling the rights entirely and deeming it unfilmable.

For the most part implies not against everything. Tolkien also already sold the rights in the letter where he talks about going against the core/heart of his works and that not all changes are bad. Strange how you an expert on knowing exactly how he would think doesn't know that even after it was pointed out to you.

You even agreed with me that it is silly to say one way or the other and yet here you are continuing to argue it. Strange, right?

There is no concrete proof and evidence for the discussion of speculation

[s_bushido]

Read an interesting article about the serie and why it has gone down badly to so many.

One of the things it mentioned was that Amazon only payed to use IP from the 3 LotR books which is kind of important cos it means Amazon are not allowed to base any part of the production on lore not specifically mentioned in the 3 LotR books.
Which saves a ton of cash but when the serie is being played out before said books it explains some of the lore stuff errors that bugs the shit out of many viewers.
Shortcuts biting Amazon in the ass.

idk man... There has been outage and upset since the very first rumors about the show came out: when someone found out that they were hiring a person whose job it was to deal with nudity. Which the outrage-mongers assumed was because "GoT bewbs"...but if the season so far is anything to go on, it would have simply been because that dude who fell to earth in a meteor wasn't wearing any clothes.

[Triceron]

For the most part implies not against everything. Tolkien also already sold the rights in the letter where he talks about going against the core/heart of his works and that not all changes are bad. Strange how you an expert on knowing exactly how he would think doesn't know that even after it was pointed out to you.

You even agreed with me that it is silly to say one way or the other and yet here you are continuing to argue it. Strange, right?

Don't have to be an expert.

Like if I clearly ask you to speculate on how Tolkien would react to Rings of Power, would you agree that he would go out of his way to involve himself in writing a screenplay for it? Based on merely considering screenplays for LOTR?

Let's say Disney wanted to make a LOTR animated trilogy, would you think Tolkien would involve himself to help in that process?

[rhorle]

Let's say Disney wanted to make a LOTR animated trilogy, would you think Tolkien would involve himself to help in that process?

We don't have to speculate as letter 210 covers that scenario. Even though he didn't like the script and its changes he also didn't kill the project himself. There is nothing that can give us an indication of what he would think of Rings of Power or any other adaptation. Because he isn't alive to give his thoughts on the matter.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_210
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle...st_J._Ackerman

From the Wikipedia article linked to above:

Nevertheless, Tolkien did not wish to kill the project, saying "I think [it] promised well on the pictorial side."[14]

[Triceron]

We don't have to speculate as letter 210 covers that scenario. Even though he didn't like the script and its changes he also didn't kill the project himself. There is nothing that can give us an indication of what he would think of Rings of Power or any other adaptation. Because he isn't alive to give his thoughts on the matter.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_210
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle...st_J._Ackerman

From the Wikipedia article linked to above:

Yes and I'm asking if you think he would involve himself in a rewrite of the story of the Rings of Power to make it adaptable for film.

Tolkien not wanting to kill an adaptation he had no direct involvement with does not relate to the question I've asked you.

Do you understand what the context of this is about or are you still adamant on arguing for the sake of it?

[rhorle]

Do you understand what the context of this is about or are you still adamant on arguing for the sake of it?

You literally stated there is no evidence to use as speculation yet you keep arguing the subject in order to speculate. The only one arguing for the sake of it at this point is yourself. None of us can say if he would have been happy about or involved with Rings of Power.

[Myradin]

Finally something happened this episode. As predictable as most of it was.

I think I actually dig Adar. Galadriel wasnt as insufferable, though her speech to Adar sounded pretty darn evil, glad he called her out on it.

The writing is still a mess though.

idk man... There has been outage and upset since the very first rumors about the show came out: when someone found out that they were hiring a person whose job it was to deal with nudity. Which the outrage-mongers assumed was because "GoT bewbs"...but if the season so far is anything to go on, it would have simply been because that dude who fell to earth in a meteor wasn't wearing any clothes.

To be fair this was a big red flag in the halo TV show and um...that ended up with chief committing a war crime while cortana watched.

[Triceron]

You literally stated there is no evidence to use as speculation yet you keep arguing the subject in order to speculate. The only one arguing for the sake of it at this point is yourself. None of us can say if he would have been happy about or involved with Rings of Power.

You came at this demanding proof, and I said we don't need it to make a reasonable assumption based on what we knew of Tolkien. There is no proof of something he's never done, that's what I mean by there being no evidence.

And you don't disagree, you just come at this saying no one knows. Well, 'If Tolkien were alive today' implies speculation, no? So why are you arguing again?

Do you agree he would help write a Rings of Power screenplay or not?

[rhorle]

You came at this demanding proof, and I said we don't need it to make a reasonable assumption based on what we knew of Tolkien.

Lmao. Why wouldn't you have to prove a claim you are making? Why don't you need proof to make a reasonable assumption about a person that isn't you? It is highly arrogant to think you know Tolkien well enough to speak for him. With what I provided it shows that Tolkien himself wasn't fully against adaptations even when they butchered his story.

So there is nothing at all to indicate which way he would go.

[Triceron]

Lmao. Why wouldn't you have to prove a claim you are making?

He was against getting involved in film adaptations by the time he sold the liscencing rights. What more evidence do you need?

Again, if you're implying that if Tolkien were alive today, he'd suddenly revert to a more inexperienced version of himself who would be open to adapting a Rings of Power story himself for lack of any reasons to pursue so other than 'he read screenplays and was okay with them', then that's quite delusional even as speculation goes.

[bledgor]

Finally something happened this episode. As predictable as most of it was.

I think I actually dig Adar. Galadriel wasnt as insufferable, though her speech to Adar sounded pretty darn evil, glad he called her out on it.

The writing is still a mess though.



To be fair this was a big red flag in the halo TV show and um...that ended up with chief committing a war crime while cortana watched.

That show managed to be worse than 343's handled of the halo franchise, in all the worst ways. It was actually impressive how bad that show was.

[rhorle]

He was against getting involved in film adaptations by the time he sold the liscencing rights. What more evidence do you need?

Of course The L.R. does not belong to me. It has been brought forth and must now go its appointed way in the world, though naturally I take a deep interest in its fortunes, as a parent would of a child. I am comforted to know that it has good friends to defend it against the malice of its enemies. (But all the fools are not in the other camp.) With best wishes to one of its best friends. -Letter 328

You have nothing to say he was against film adaptations. When he sold his works he didn't seem to wish ill will against it and what it would become in any form. It is silly that you think he would just because he was older. It also ignores how he choose to sell the rights so others could create adaptations. Again you are letting your bias against the show make you think you know what Tolkien would want. Just like another person in this thread has. Yet both of you are not Tolkien and are the peak of arrogance if you believe you do speak for him. No one can speak for him and what he may or may not think of recent adaptations of any form (film, video game, pen and paper, etc)

[Triceron]

You have nothing to say he was against film adaptations.

I said he wouldn't support them, and we have evidence of his attitude towards film adaptations of his work after he sold the rights. He distanced himself from them entirely. I clarified this position at the first reply to you.

Again, you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

[rhorle]

I never said he was against film adaptations, smartass.

He wasn't even supportive of LOTR adaptations for the most part, defaulting to selling the rights entirely and deeming it unfilmable.

The proof is that he wouldn't have supported any adaptation directly, just as he was hands off with LOTR adaptations after he sold the rights.

Tolkien never intended the appendices or Silmarillion or the 2nd Age to be adapted...Where can you point to Tolkien being okay with the 2nd age being adapted at all?...The reason Amazon are free to adapting the 2nd age now, without staunch criticisms from the creators, is because JRR Tolkien snd Christopher Tolkien are both dead.

You did. You keep saying he wouldn't be involved with an adaptation. You honestly believe that if he were alive today he wouldn't write a letter or offer his opinion? Or that Amazon wouldn't consult with him? They are literally consulting with Simon Tolkien which means they would with JRR Tolkien if he were still alive. He even corresponded with Boorman who was adapting LotR after Tolkien sold the rights. Of course Tolkien would have hated that version for reasons that become clear if you read about it. You can call me all the names you want but it doesn't give you any validity. It just makes you look desperate and unable to admit you are wrong.

Boorman had wanted Tolkien to have a cameo in his film, and corresponded with Tolkien about the project, telling him he intended to make it with small people playing the Hobbits and in live-action, which Tolkien preferred. He considered having children dressed with facial hair, dubbed by adult actors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle...m#John_Boorman

[Triceron]

You did. You keep saying he wouldn't be involved with an adaptation. You honestly believe that if he were alive today he wouldn't write a letter or offer his opinion? Or that Amazon wouldn't consult with him? They are literally consulting with Simon Tolkien which means they would with JRR Tolkien if he were still alive. He even corresponded with Boorman who was adapting LotR after Tolkien sold the rights. Of course Tolkien would have hated that version for reasons that become clear if you read about it. You can call me all the names you want but it doesn't give you any validity. It just makes you look desperate and unable to admit you are wrong.

Not being involved and not supporting does not mean he would be against them.

You have been arguing if I had been saying he would be against them even being made. I said he wouldn't involve himself in their production after he had already sold the rights.

Letter 201 was written in 1957. He sold rights to United Artists in 1968. How is Letter 201 relevant to 'if Tolkien were alive today' exactly? Not at all, because he had distanced himself from all film productions after he sold the rights.

Reading Booorman's script and saying 'that's nice' doesn't equate to getting himself involved and consulting on the project.

What are you confused about here? Stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

[InfiniteCharger]

Tolkien never intended the appendices to be adapted by themselves into a history of the 2nd age. And the only reason such a project even exists is because of a loophole that the Tolkien Estate exercised and tried to shop around in order to make some money. The Tolkien Estate itself was looking for a way to get more money out of the IP because the film rights were sold for a relatively small sum to United Artists. And after New Line Cinema released the Peter Jackson films, the Tolkien Estate had to sue for a share of the profits of the film. So their idea was to use the appendices as the basis for a new set of global television rights that could be purchased by a studio who would commit to making multiple seasons and a potential spin off series based on the appendices to Lord of the Rings. Which is odd because these television rights do not cover all of the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit but only the appendices and not the Silmarillion or Unfinished tales. So basically they gave the rights to use the name "Lord of the Rings" to a studio with limited source material, which means the rights to make up mostly whatever they want.

In July 2017, a lawsuit was settled between Warner Bros., the studio behind the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit film trilogies, and the estate of author J. R. R. Tolkien upon whose books those films were based. With the two sides "on better terms", they began offering the rights to a potential television series based on Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings to several outlets, including Amazon, Netflix, and HBO, with a starting price of US$200 million. Amazon emerged as the frontrunner by September and entered negotiations. Uncommonly for programming developments at the studio, Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos was personally involved with the negotiations. A fan of the franchise, Bezos had previously given Amazon Studios a mandate to develop an ambitious fantasy series of comparable scale to HBO's Game of Thrones which made Amazon the lead contender for the project.

On November 13, 2017, Amazon acquired the global television rights for close to US$250 million. Industry commentators described this amount—before any production costs and without any creative talent attached to the project—as "insane",although some considered the project to be more of a reputational risk for Amazon than a financial one due to Bezos's wealth. Amazon's streaming service Prime Video gave a multi-season commitment to the series that was believed to be for five seasons, with the possibility of a spin-off series as well. Despite this, Prime Video had to give a formal greenlight to future seasons before work could begin on them. The budget was expected to be in the range of US$100–150 million per season, and was likely to eventually exceed US$1 billion which would make it the most expensive television series ever made. Warner Bros. Television was not involved in the project because Amazon Studios wanted to produce it themselves. Amazon was working with the Tolkien Estate and Trust, HarperCollins, and New Line Cinema (the Warner Bros. division who produced the films). New Line was reportedly included to allow the series to use material from the films. The Tolkien Estate imposed some creative restrictions on the series, and the deal stipulated that production begin within two years.

The film rights were sold to United Artists and they never actually made a live action film with them because many directors thought it was unfilmable and they then started looking into an animated version. And it was only because Ralph Bakshi had an interest in making an animate version that the first actual adaptation was created, but again, also animated.

In 1969, the rights were passed to United Artists, where an "elegant" Peter Shaffer script was abandoned. Denis O'Dell was interested in producing a film for The Beatles, and approached directors David Lean (busy with Ryan's Daughter), Stanley Kubrick (who deemed it "unfilmable") and Michaelangelo Antonioni. John Boorman was commissioned to write a script in late 1969, but it was deemed too expensive in 1970.[2]

Bakshi approached United Artists when he learned (from a 1974 issue of Variety) that Boorman's script was abandoned. Learning that Boorman intended to produce all three parts of The Lord of the Rings as a single film, Bakshi commented, "I thought that was madness, certainly a lack of character on Boorman's part. Why would you want to tamper with anything Tolkien did?" Bakshi began making a "yearly trek" to United Artists. Bakshi had since achieved box office success producing adult-oriented animated films such as Fritz the Cat but his recent film, Coonskin, tanked, and he later clarified that he thought The Lord of the Rings could "make some money" so as to save his studio.

In 1975, Bakshi convinced United Artists executive Mike Medavoy to produce The Lord of the Rings as two or three animated films, and a Hobbit prequel. Medavoy offered him Boorman's script, which Bakshi refused, saying that Boorman "didn't understand it" and that his script would have made for a cheap film like "a Roger Corman film".[16] Medavoy accepted Bakshi's proposal to "do the books as close as we can, using Tolkien's exact dialogue and scenes".

Although he was later keen to regroup with Boorman for his script (and his surrogate project, Excalibur), Bakshi claimed Medavoy didn't want to produce his film at the time, but allowed him to shop it around if he could get another studio to pay for the expenses on Boorman's script. Bakshi attempted unsuccessfully to persuade Peter Bogdanovich to take on the project, but managed to gain the support of the then president of MGM Dan Melnick. Bakshi and Melnick made a deal with Mike Medavoy at United Artists to buy the Boorman script. Bakshi said later that "The Boorman script cost $3 million, so Boorman was happy by the pool, screaming and laughing and drinking, 'cause he got $3 million for his script to be thrown out." Boorman, however, was unhappy with the project going to animation after Tolkien once wrote to him, pleased that he was doing it in live-action. He never saw Bakshi's film, and after it was released, tried to remake his live-action version with Medavoy.[17]

Work began on scripts and storyboards. When Melnick was fired from MGM in 1976, Bakshi's studio had spent between $200,000 and $600,000. The new executive Dick Shepherd hadn't read the books and, according to Bakshi, did not want to make the movie;[16] Shepherd obliviously asked whether The Lord of the Rings was about a wedding. Bakshi then contacted Saul Zaentz (who had helped finance Fritz the Cat), asking him to produce The Lord of the Rings; Zaentz agreed.[11]

....

Cancelled sequels

The film was originally intended to be distributed as The Lord of the Rings Part I. Initially a trilogy was planned, but this was revised to two planned films because of the limited budget. Arthur Krim resigned from United Artists and was replaced by Andy Albeck. According to Bakshi, when he completed the film, United Artists executives told him that they were planning to release the film without indicating that a sequel would follow, because they felt that audiences would not pay to see half of a film. Bakshi stated that he strongly opposed this, and agreed with the shocked viewers who complained that the film was unfinished. In his view, "Had it said 'Part One,' I think everyone would have respected it."

Although UA found that the film, while financially successful, "failed to overwhelm audiences", Bakshi did begin working on a sequel, and even had some B-roll footage shot. The Film Book of J.R.R. Tolkien's the Lord of the Rings, published by Ballantine Books on October 12, 1978, still referred to the sequel in the book's inside cover jacket. Indeed, in interviews Bakshi talked about doing "a part two film picking up where this leaves off", and even boasted that the second film could "pick up on sequences that we missed in the first book". Zaentz went so far as to try to stop the Rankin-Bass The Return of the King TV special (which was already storyboarded before Bakshi's film came out) from airing, so as to not clash with Bakshi's sequel

.....

Reception
Box office, awards, and nominations

The Lord of the Rings was a financial success. Reports of the budget vary from $4 to $8 million, and as high as $12 million, while the film grossed $30.5 million at the United States and Canadian box office. It thus made a profit, having kept its costs low. In the United Kingdom, the film grossed over $3.2 million. Despite this, the reaction from fans was hostile; Jerry Beck writes that they "intensely dislike[d]" the film's "cheap-looking effects and the missing ending", having been misled by the title to expect the film to cover the whole of the book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lo...gs_(1978_film)

The actual truth is that Tolkien was right in that at the time, making a faithful live action version of his work was almost impossible. So he sold the rights to United Artists but they were never able to actually create a live action film and it was only because of the dedication and determination of Ralph Bakshi that an animated version got made. And it is due to those efforts that Saul Zaence was brought on to finance the project and this is how he got the film rights to Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit and television series with less than 8 episodes. After the animated film, it took 20 years before a live action film was begun and in both cases, the only reason they came to be is because of the dedication and passion of those behind these projects.

Through Tolkien Enterprises, now Middle-earth Enterprises, Saul Zaentz owned the worldwide film, stage, and merchandise rights to J. R. R. Tolkien's The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.[15] It also includes "matching rights" should Tolkien's estate film The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-Earth.[16] What it did not include was the rights for televisions shows (for any show longer than eight episodes).[16]

In 1976, Zaentz acquired certain rights as regards The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit from United Artists, who had in turn purchased them directly from Tolkien eight years prior. In 1978, Zaentz produced an animated version of The Lord of the Rings, written chiefly by Peter S. Beagle and directed by animator Ralph Bakshi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Zaentz

Tolkien himself never published the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, so therefore he would never have approved of adapting something he never published. Not to mention that outside of those works he never published, the only record of the history of the 2nd age comes from the appendices and I doubt very seriously that he intended those appendices to be used as the basis for an entire television series or even movie. The appendices were written as footnotes and references to past events or future events.

Also, when it comes to the quote of Tolkien intended his work to pass through "many hands" he was referring to the use of a "frame story" where a fictional mythology or history is told from the point of view of different characters writing their own accounts of what transpired.....

Tolkien's frame stories are the narrative devices that J. R. R. Tolkien chose to use throughout his Middle-earth writings, especially his legendarium, to make the works resemble a genuine mythology written and edited by many hands over a long period of time. He described in detail how his fictional characters wrote their books and transmitted them to others, and showed how later in-universe editors annotated the material.

The frame story for both Tolkien's novels published in his lifetime, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, is that the eponymous Hobbit Bilbo Baggins wrote a memoir of his adventures, which became The Red Book of Westmarch. This was continued by his relative Frodo Baggins, who carried the One Ring to Mount Doom, and then by Frodo's servant, Samwise Gamgee, who had accompanied him. The Lord of the Rings contains an appendix, "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen", which, being written by Men rather than Hobbits, has its own frame story.

The legendarium, the body of writing behind the posthumously-published The Silmarillion, has a frame story that evolved over Tolkien's long writing career. It centred on a character, Aelfwine the mariner, whose name, like those of several later frame-characters, means "Elf-friend". He sails the seas and is shipwrecked on an island where the Elves narrate their tales to him. The legendarium contains two incomplete time-travel novels, The Book of Lost Tales and The Notion Club Papers, which are framed by various "Elf-friend" characters who by dream or other means visit earlier ages, all the way back to the ancient, Atlantis-like lost civilisation of Númenor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien%27s_frame_stories