Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

That isn't true. As he has looked at scripts and as I pointed out to you stated that the issue was around adaptations that keep or don't keep the core or heart of an authors work. There is no way to answer what he would have done if he was still alive because again you don't know what he did or did not consider the core/heart of his work. Only he could decide that.

If there is no evidence for the discussion of speculation then why have you speculated that he wouldn't have approved of Rings of Power? You just confirmed what I've been saying all along. That it is silly to say what he would have done one way or the other because we are not Tolkien.

He looked at scripts adapting what exactly? Anything covering 2nd age? Anything involving heavy time compression?

Again, we are talking about Rings of Power level of adaptation. What you are talking about are scripts that are directly adapting LOTR, not a completely new thing that is only loosely being based on his work.

[rhorle]

He looked at scripts adapting what exactly? Anything covering 2nd age? Anything involving heavy time compression?

Prove that Tolkien thought adaptations of his other works were seen differently. Why would he, or anyone, feel different just because it "wasn't a book"?

[bledgor]

Anyone who believes Tolkien would actually be okay/on board with the RoP "adaptation" is a troll, a troll no one should engage/encourage by talking to.

[Bakis]

Read an interesting article about the serie and why it has gone down badly to so many.

One of the things it mentioned was that Amazon only payed to use IP from the 3 LotR books which is kind of important cos it means Amazon are not allowed to base any part of the production on lore not specifically mentioned in the 3 LotR books.
Which saves a ton of cash but when the serie is being played out before said books it explains some of the lore stuff errors that bugs the shit out of many viewers.
Shortcuts biting Amazon in the ass.

[Triceron]

Prove that Tolkien thought adaptations of his other works were seen differently. Why would he, or anyone, feel different just because it "wasn't a book"?

He wasn't even supportive of LOTR adaptations for the most part, defaulting to selling the rights entirely and deeming it unfilmable.

What you're arguing is pure delusion, buddy. He was never all that supportive of LOTR adaptations after literally having a hand in the process multiple times, that is the takeaway.

If he were still alive today he wouldn't act as his younger self prior to going through that process and being hopefully optimistic from reading scripts and getting involved. He would be jaded and accepting of just selling the rights and not involving himself at all.

You're literally pointing at Tolkien as if personified before he sold the rights. That isn't what he would be if he were alive today.

[rhorle]

He wasn't even supportive of LOTR adaptations for the most part, defaulting to selling the rights entirely and deeming it unfilmable.

For the most part implies not against everything. Tolkien also already sold the rights in the letter where he talks about going against the core/heart of his works and that not all changes are bad. Strange how you an expert on knowing exactly how he would think doesn't know that even after it was pointed out to you.

You even agreed with me that it is silly to say one way or the other and yet here you are continuing to argue it. Strange, right?

There is no concrete proof and evidence for the discussion of speculation

[s_bushido]

Read an interesting article about the serie and why it has gone down badly to so many.

One of the things it mentioned was that Amazon only payed to use IP from the 3 LotR books which is kind of important cos it means Amazon are not allowed to base any part of the production on lore not specifically mentioned in the 3 LotR books.
Which saves a ton of cash but when the serie is being played out before said books it explains some of the lore stuff errors that bugs the shit out of many viewers.
Shortcuts biting Amazon in the ass.

idk man... There has been outage and upset since the very first rumors about the show came out: when someone found out that they were hiring a person whose job it was to deal with nudity. Which the outrage-mongers assumed was because "GoT bewbs"...but if the season so far is anything to go on, it would have simply been because that dude who fell to earth in a meteor wasn't wearing any clothes.

[Triceron]

For the most part implies not against everything. Tolkien also already sold the rights in the letter where he talks about going against the core/heart of his works and that not all changes are bad. Strange how you an expert on knowing exactly how he would think doesn't know that even after it was pointed out to you.

You even agreed with me that it is silly to say one way or the other and yet here you are continuing to argue it. Strange, right?

Don't have to be an expert.

Like if I clearly ask you to speculate on how Tolkien would react to Rings of Power, would you agree that he would go out of his way to involve himself in writing a screenplay for it? Based on merely considering screenplays for LOTR?

Let's say Disney wanted to make a LOTR animated trilogy, would you think Tolkien would involve himself to help in that process?

[rhorle]

Let's say Disney wanted to make a LOTR animated trilogy, would you think Tolkien would involve himself to help in that process?

We don't have to speculate as letter 210 covers that scenario. Even though he didn't like the script and its changes he also didn't kill the project himself. There is nothing that can give us an indication of what he would think of Rings of Power or any other adaptation. Because he isn't alive to give his thoughts on the matter.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_210
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle...st_J._Ackerman

From the Wikipedia article linked to above:

Nevertheless, Tolkien did not wish to kill the project, saying "I think [it] promised well on the pictorial side."[14]

[Triceron]

We don't have to speculate as letter 210 covers that scenario. Even though he didn't like the script and its changes he also didn't kill the project himself. There is nothing that can give us an indication of what he would think of Rings of Power or any other adaptation. Because he isn't alive to give his thoughts on the matter.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_210
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle...st_J._Ackerman

From the Wikipedia article linked to above:

Yes and I'm asking if you think he would involve himself in a rewrite of the story of the Rings of Power to make it adaptable for film.

Tolkien not wanting to kill an adaptation he had no direct involvement with does not relate to the question I've asked you.

Do you understand what the context of this is about or are you still adamant on arguing for the sake of it?

[rhorle]

Do you understand what the context of this is about or are you still adamant on arguing for the sake of it?

You literally stated there is no evidence to use as speculation yet you keep arguing the subject in order to speculate. The only one arguing for the sake of it at this point is yourself. None of us can say if he would have been happy about or involved with Rings of Power.

[Myradin]

Finally something happened this episode. As predictable as most of it was.

I think I actually dig Adar. Galadriel wasnt as insufferable, though her speech to Adar sounded pretty darn evil, glad he called her out on it.

The writing is still a mess though.

idk man... There has been outage and upset since the very first rumors about the show came out: when someone found out that they were hiring a person whose job it was to deal with nudity. Which the outrage-mongers assumed was because "GoT bewbs"...but if the season so far is anything to go on, it would have simply been because that dude who fell to earth in a meteor wasn't wearing any clothes.

To be fair this was a big red flag in the halo TV show and um...that ended up with chief committing a war crime while cortana watched.

[Triceron]

You literally stated there is no evidence to use as speculation yet you keep arguing the subject in order to speculate. The only one arguing for the sake of it at this point is yourself. None of us can say if he would have been happy about or involved with Rings of Power.

You came at this demanding proof, and I said we don't need it to make a reasonable assumption based on what we knew of Tolkien. There is no proof of something he's never done, that's what I mean by there being no evidence.

And you don't disagree, you just come at this saying no one knows. Well, 'If Tolkien were alive today' implies speculation, no? So why are you arguing again?

Do you agree he would help write a Rings of Power screenplay or not?

[rhorle]

You came at this demanding proof, and I said we don't need it to make a reasonable assumption based on what we knew of Tolkien.

Lmao. Why wouldn't you have to prove a claim you are making? Why don't you need proof to make a reasonable assumption about a person that isn't you? It is highly arrogant to think you know Tolkien well enough to speak for him. With what I provided it shows that Tolkien himself wasn't fully against adaptations even when they butchered his story.

So there is nothing at all to indicate which way he would go.

[Triceron]

Lmao. Why wouldn't you have to prove a claim you are making?

He was against getting involved in film adaptations by the time he sold the liscencing rights. What more evidence do you need?

Again, if you're implying that if Tolkien were alive today, he'd suddenly revert to a more inexperienced version of himself who would be open to adapting a Rings of Power story himself for lack of any reasons to pursue so other than 'he read screenplays and was okay with them', then that's quite delusional even as speculation goes.

[bledgor]

Finally something happened this episode. As predictable as most of it was.

I think I actually dig Adar. Galadriel wasnt as insufferable, though her speech to Adar sounded pretty darn evil, glad he called her out on it.

The writing is still a mess though.



To be fair this was a big red flag in the halo TV show and um...that ended up with chief committing a war crime while cortana watched.

That show managed to be worse than 343's handled of the halo franchise, in all the worst ways. It was actually impressive how bad that show was.

[rhorle]

He was against getting involved in film adaptations by the time he sold the liscencing rights. What more evidence do you need?

Of course The L.R. does not belong to me. It has been brought forth and must now go its appointed way in the world, though naturally I take a deep interest in its fortunes, as a parent would of a child. I am comforted to know that it has good friends to defend it against the malice of its enemies. (But all the fools are not in the other camp.) With best wishes to one of its best friends. -Letter 328

You have nothing to say he was against film adaptations. When he sold his works he didn't seem to wish ill will against it and what it would become in any form. It is silly that you think he would just because he was older. It also ignores how he choose to sell the rights so others could create adaptations. Again you are letting your bias against the show make you think you know what Tolkien would want. Just like another person in this thread has. Yet both of you are not Tolkien and are the peak of arrogance if you believe you do speak for him. No one can speak for him and what he may or may not think of recent adaptations of any form (film, video game, pen and paper, etc)

[Triceron]

You have nothing to say he was against film adaptations.

I said he wouldn't support them, and we have evidence of his attitude towards film adaptations of his work after he sold the rights. He distanced himself from them entirely. I clarified this position at the first reply to you.

Again, you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

[rhorle]

I never said he was against film adaptations, smartass.

He wasn't even supportive of LOTR adaptations for the most part, defaulting to selling the rights entirely and deeming it unfilmable.

The proof is that he wouldn't have supported any adaptation directly, just as he was hands off with LOTR adaptations after he sold the rights.

Tolkien never intended the appendices or Silmarillion or the 2nd Age to be adapted...Where can you point to Tolkien being okay with the 2nd age being adapted at all?...The reason Amazon are free to adapting the 2nd age now, without staunch criticisms from the creators, is because JRR Tolkien snd Christopher Tolkien are both dead.

You did. You keep saying he wouldn't be involved with an adaptation. You honestly believe that if he were alive today he wouldn't write a letter or offer his opinion? Or that Amazon wouldn't consult with him? They are literally consulting with Simon Tolkien which means they would with JRR Tolkien if he were still alive. He even corresponded with Boorman who was adapting LotR after Tolkien sold the rights. Of course Tolkien would have hated that version for reasons that become clear if you read about it. You can call me all the names you want but it doesn't give you any validity. It just makes you look desperate and unable to admit you are wrong.

Boorman had wanted Tolkien to have a cameo in his film, and corresponded with Tolkien about the project, telling him he intended to make it with small people playing the Hobbits and in live-action, which Tolkien preferred. He considered having children dressed with facial hair, dubbed by adult actors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle...m#John_Boorman

[Triceron]

You did. You keep saying he wouldn't be involved with an adaptation. You honestly believe that if he were alive today he wouldn't write a letter or offer his opinion? Or that Amazon wouldn't consult with him? They are literally consulting with Simon Tolkien which means they would with JRR Tolkien if he were still alive. He even corresponded with Boorman who was adapting LotR after Tolkien sold the rights. Of course Tolkien would have hated that version for reasons that become clear if you read about it. You can call me all the names you want but it doesn't give you any validity. It just makes you look desperate and unable to admit you are wrong.

Not being involved and not supporting does not mean he would be against them.

You have been arguing if I had been saying he would be against them even being made. I said he wouldn't involve himself in their production after he had already sold the rights.

Letter 201 was written in 1957. He sold rights to United Artists in 1968. How is Letter 201 relevant to 'if Tolkien were alive today' exactly? Not at all, because he had distanced himself from all film productions after he sold the rights.

Reading Booorman's script and saying 'that's nice' doesn't equate to getting himself involved and consulting on the project.

What are you confused about here? Stop arguing for the sake of arguing.