Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Orby]

Once this season is over I gotta match it up to Wheel of Time, overall Season 1 of Wheel of Time I gave a 5/10 on imdb. I do feel with however the season ends at this point Rings of Power will probably get higher. my individual scores for each episode of RoP is higher than WoT. I wouldn't be surprised if Rings of Power ends up with an overall 6/10.

Its fair to say I am not finding it as much of a chore to get through as I am Wheel of Time, Wheel of Time was rough, at least with Rings of Power it has better effects and more things to like. Also I already decided to pass on Wheel of Time season 2, I might be won over just enough to tune into Season 2 of Rings of Power.

[Triceron]

Once this season is over I gotta match it up to Wheel of Time, overall Season 1 of Wheel of Time I gave a 5/10 on imdb. I do feel with however the season ends at this point Rings of Power will probably get higher. my individual scores for each episode of RoP is higher than WoT. I wouldn't be surprised if Rings of Power ends up with an overall 6/10.

Its fair to say I am not finding it as much of a chore to get through as I am Wheel of Time, Wheel of Time was rough, at least with Rings of Power it has better effects and more things to like. Also I already decided to pass on Wheel of Time season 2, I might be won over just enough to tune into Season 2 of Rings of Power.

Wheel of Time was just poorly done overall. It didn't just feel unpolished, it felt outright cheap.

[Orby]

Wheel of Time was just poorly done overall. It didn't just feel unpolished, it felt outright cheap.

I am convinced the budget for Wheel of time was cut halfway through to focus on Rings of Power, the early half of Wheel of Time look amazing compared to the horrible effects of the last few epiodes.

Neither have been as awful as the Sword of Shannara adaptations... good lord that was bad. anyone thinking RoP is a bad adaptation havent watched sword of shannara. Probably a fantasy adaptations that's earned one of my lowest scores. I think there's a reason no one ever spoke about that show :P

[Geckoo]

The last episode was good for the action, but the aftermath of the battle was stupid AF.
You have the super elven commander Galadriel chasing down Adar with the premise that the object he took was important, yet once they retrieve it she doesn't bother to ask what it is, the other elf doesn't bother to tell her what it is and it gives it back to a teenager... the outcome would've been the same, but at least it won't make them look like a bunch of fools.

[Mace]

The exceptions do prove that you are wrong in your assessment of Elves. It is as simple as that.

Sigh, you can read a quote, but lack understanding - or for understanding to come to the simple. Elves are a lot of things, but the way Rings of power writes and shows them and Galadariel does not reflect the dignity, prestige, wisdom and character attributed to them.

Jus because Tolkien points out the reason behind them staying in Middle Earth, doesn't mean we should ignore their racial character in general, and alter it entirely, nor does it mean e should forget all the positive things about them that absolutely make them who they are and ought to be CLEARLY evident.

They are not just pretty humans with less defects.

[molliewoof]

Once this season is over I gotta match it up to Wheel of Time, overall Season 1 of Wheel of Time I gave a 5/10 on imdb. I do feel with however the season ends at this point Rings of Power will probably get higher. my individual scores for each episode of RoP is higher than WoT. I wouldn't be surprised if Rings of Power ends up with an overall 6/10.

Its fair to say I am not finding it as much of a chore to get through as I am Wheel of Time, Wheel of Time was rough, at least with Rings of Power it has better effects and more things to like. Also I already decided to pass on Wheel of Time season 2, I might be won over just enough to tune into Season 2 of Rings of Power.

i pretty much agree with that, id probably give WOT 4 because for me 5 is low average 6 is higher average if that makes sense. Im probably at ROP being a strong six all subjective obviously, maybe we should mark out of a hundred ha

The episode would have been a high 8 for me had it ended immediately after the battle, the next stuff was awful although the twist did get me i must admit. the episode was probably a low seven because of the last 15 minutes.

Ive read posts down from yours and like someone else said, at least look at the fucking thing, 'whats in the cloth?' 'That crazy sword that opens dams and shit' 'the one with an ornate, large hilt?' 'yep' 'oh this feels like an axe'

i dont think it helps that i read chapter 4 of the crippled god by steven erikson a few days ago and that shows the aftereffects of battle soooo much better imho, i was reading it on a plane and nearly cried after reading the last few paragraphs. you could probably read that chapter standalone just knowing it is after a battle and still be affected by it.

[InfiniteCharger]

Just on the topic of "rights", these rights generally mean the ability to use characters, dialog, plots, settings and so forth in a derivative work. But that doesn't require any strict adherence to any specific plot and can just cover the rights to use those copyrighted concepts from another work. So "Galadriel" is copyrighted by Tolkien but the rights to use "Galadriel" in a TV show does not mean it will follow any specific narrative or plot associated with that character from the book. Same thing with "Numenor" and "The Destruction of Numenor" from Tolkien which are ideas that are copyrighted to him, but how those ideas are represented in that TV show is totally up to the studio.

Film rights are a type of intellectual property rights that allow the holder to make a film based on the existing property or idea. In order for a producer, director, writer, or production company to legally create a derivative work meant for the screen, they must obtain the film rights from the copyright holder. Film rights may be purchased outright, or may be “optioned” in an attempt to get a buyer for the full rights.

https://www.mylawquestions.com/what-are-film-rights.htm

The one difference between the rights that were optioned by the Tolkien estate and the film rights sold by Tolkien is that the television rights were exclusive, so Amazon cannot sell those rights to anybody else. Whereas the rights told to United Artists were not exclusive rights and they then sold them to Saul Zalsance.

[Shadowferal]

i pretty much agree with that, id probably give WOT 4 because for me 5 is low average 6 is higher average if that makes sense. Im probably at ROP being a strong six all subjective obviously, maybe we should mark out of a hundred ha

Wot probably should rank lower as its rewritten poorly from the book.
Whereas ROP is attempting some sort of narrative from notes of the author and doing a shoddy job.

[rhorle]

Reading Booorman's script and saying 'that's nice' doesn't equate to getting himself involved and consulting on the project.

So reading a script isn't "getting involved"? You said he wasn't involved with anything after he sold the rights. That wasn't true. Strange how you keep moving the goal posts. Also strange how you ignore Simon Tolkien consulting on Rings of Power which indicates that Christopher and JRR likely would have likely consulted if they were alive. Remember Christopher was alive to "authorize" the sale of rights to Amazon.

[molliewoof]

Wot probably should rank lower as its rewritten poorly from the book.
Whereas ROP is attempting some sort of narrative from notes of the author and doing a shoddy job.

i can agree with that from a reader's perspective.

im really just rating both of the tv shows though, i read lotr and the hobbit forever ago though and have never read WOT so can only really judge from the tv shows.

i think the main difference for me is that im more or less enjoying ROP, its mainly when i think about the plot after ive watched the episode that i realise it isnt the best, obviously there have been a couple of stinkers (5) but it isnt boring. When i watched WOT i was cleaning at the same time or maybe cooking with the TV on loud, if im honest i could probably go 3 with WOT but id have to watch it again and wouldnt want to because if i was to rewatch something, id watch the new Star Trek again or arcane which i was thinking of doing last night after a booktuber i watch recommended it.

[rhorle]

Jus because Tolkien points out the reason behind them staying in Middle Earth, doesn't mean we should ignore their racial character in general, and alter it entirely, nor does it mean e should forget all the positive things about them that absolutely make them who they are and ought to be CLEARLY evident.

So Tolkien states one thing but since it doesn't agree with your view we need to ignore it. Lol. The only one not understanding or "simple" here is yourself. You keep trying to cling to the ideal you've created for elves when that never existed in reality. Tolkien refers to Galadariel as an "amazon" in her youth. And that she rebelled against the Valar and refused forgiveness or a return at the end of the first age. So she was similar to how the show depicts her. There are already hints at her being to close to darkness that shoe learns to control by the third age when she meets Frodo.

Tolkien also intended the elves to be similar to Humans.

348 From a letter to Mrs Catharine Findlay 6 March 1973
Galadriel, like all the other names of elvish persons in The Lord of the Rings, is an invention of my own. It is in Sindarin form (see Appendices E and F) and means 'Maiden crowned with gleaming hair'. It is a secondary name given to her in her youth in the far past because she had long hair which glistened like gold but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats

320 From a letter to Mrs Ruth Austin 25 January 1971
I was particularly interested in your remarks about Galadriel. .... I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary, but actually Galadriel was a penitent: in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar (the angelic guardians). At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return. She was pardoned because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself

153 To Peter Hastings (draft)
Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them

- - - Updated - - -

The one difference between the rights that were optioned by the Tolkien estate and the film rights sold by Tolkien is that the television rights were exclusive, so Amazon cannot sell those rights to anybody else. Whereas the rights told to United Artists were not exclusive rights and they then sold them to Saul Zalsance.

Amazon purchased the rights for spinoffs of the main work. So Amazon can have another production company use those rights if they don't want to create something in-house. It is why Warner Brothers continually shops derivatives of the film rights and for example partnered with a Japanese company to create the upcoming War of the Rohirrim anime. It is essentially the same thing as sub-leasing an apartment.

[Triceron]

So reading a script isn't "getting involved"? You said he wasn't involved with anything after he sold the rights. That wasn't true. Strange how you keep moving the goal posts. Also strange how you ignore Simon Tolkien consulting on Rings of Power which indicates that Christopher and JRR likely would have likely consulted if they were alive. Remember Christopher was alive to "authorize" the sale of rights to Amazon.

No, I would not say he got involved if he merely read a script and did nothing else ablut it but give his thoughts on the matter.

He could be doing the same with Rings of Power if he were alive today, and I wouldn't consider that involving himself on the production of the show.

Again, you're literally just arguing for the sake of it.

Do you think he would have written the screenplay for Rings of Power himself of he were alive today?

Also not sure why you even bring up Simon Tolkien since Christopher Tolkien practically disowned him for the very reason of wanting to collaborate/consult with film companies. They only reconciled in Christopher's last few years. Simon Tolkien has even gone on record saying he thinks JRR Tolkien wouldn't have liked the Peter Jackson films. Really bad example here.

The way it happened was the Amazon deal happened in 2017. Christopher Tolkien was still head of the Tolkien Estate at the time, and rumors say that the Tolkien estate approached Amazon for the deal. When the deal happened, Christopher Tolkien resigned from the estate around the same time the deal was being brokered (He resigned in august, Rings of Power announced Nov). The estate is now run by other family members, including Simon Tolkien who was supportive of collaborating with film productions. And guess what, Amazon's RoP has the full support of the Estate and Simon Tolkien is a major consultant on the project. Much of this publicly revealed after Christopher Tolkien's death, mind you.

From what it looks like, Christopher Tolkien is literally the King of Numenor in this situation.

[InfiniteCharger]

Amazon purchased the rights for spinoffs of the main work. So Amazon can have another production company use those rights if they don't want to create something in-house. It is why Warner Brothers continually shops derivatives of the film rights and for example partnered with a Japanese company to create the upcoming War of the Rohirrim anime. It is essentially the same thing as sub-leasing an apartment.

Says who? The spinoffs came with the original option that was floated by the rights holder, which is the Tolkien estate. And because they are the ones who floated this idea to begin with, then it likely included stipulations on whether those rights could be sold by Amazon to another party. Sub contracting to another studio to actually produce a spinoff series doesn't imply that Amazon has sold the rights, as Amazon the company has many departments, and they aren't primarily an entertainment company. So it isn't sub leasing as opposed to sub contracting to another studio to actually produce the final product, which still is owned by Amazon.

- - - Updated - - -

No, I would not say he got involved if he merely read a script and did nothing else ablut it but give his thoughts on the matter.

He could be doing the same with Rings of Power if he were alive today, and I wouldn't consider that involving himself on the production of the show.

Again, you're literally just arguing for the sake of it.

Do you think he would have written the screenplay for Rings of Power himself of he were alive today?

Also not sure why you even bring up Simon Tolkien since Christopher Tolkien practically disowned him for the very reason of wanting to collaborate/consult with film companies. They only reconciled in Christopher's last few years. Simon Tolkien has even gone on record saying he thinks JRR Tolkien wouldn't have liked the Peter Jackson films. Really bad example here.

If Tolkien were alive today the rights for a multi season television series based on the appendices would never have been floated to begin. Because it is literally giving a studio free reign to make up stories to fill time for hours of television. And if he was alive today, he may have finished the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales or perhaps other work to fill in the story of the second age as something for studios to potentially adapt separate from the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings books.

[rhorle]

Again, you're literally just arguing for the sake of it. Do you think he would have written the screenplay for Rings of Power himself of he were alive today?

So I'm arguing just to argue yet you keep asking me questions. Lmao. It is called a discussion. He hasn't written a screenplay for any adaptation when he was alive. Why would that change for rings of power, and what relevance does it have to anything discussed? You keep moving the goal posts into different hypothetical questions when your last ones don't go the way you wanted.

So Simon tolkien isn't relevant to a tolkien consulting on screenplays? Simon had a crisis over the legacy LotR's "forced" and his own identity and it crested with the popularity of the films. Ryod likely would have caused a bigger kerfuffle since he appeared on screen in both book adaptations. He is brought up because he is an example of a Tolkien consulting. Do you honestly think Christopher, who sold the rights to Amazon, wouldn't have consulted in some form? Or that JRR wouldn't have as well?

The former criminal barrister, now himself a successful novelist, said he began to lose “sight” of his identity and became “suffocated” by being known as “JRR Tolkien's grandson”. The problems also provoked an “incredibly, dreadfully painful” feud with his father, Christopher, with the falling out becoming so bad, the pair didn’t speak for “a while”. http://web.archive.org/web/202201061...gs-trauma.html

- - - Updated - - -

Says who?

The rights Amazon purchased. Rights are sub-leased all the time. It is how things get made and why Warner Brothers can continue to find partners for things as long as it doesn't violate their original rights agreement. If a right-holder sub-contracts to another entity that is for all intents and purposes selling rights. Because that new entity has paid money, or some other exchange, for the right to use stuff themselves. You are just hemming and hawing over the semantics of "sold" here.

[Triceron]

So I'm arguing just to argue yet you keep asking me questions. Lmao. It is called a discussion. He hasn't written a screenplay for any adaptation when he was alive. Why would that change for rings of power, and what relevance does it have to anything discussed?

Because the context of my entire argument was in reply to someone who said 'If Tolkien were alive today he would write the screenplay for Rings of Power', which you jumped into by thinking my reply somehow meant he was against any and all film adaptations. You outright ignored the context about refuting the idea that Tolkien would have written a screenplay for a series like Rings of Power.

Like I say again, if you don't think he would involve himself in a screenplay or adaptation because he never did in life, then that is and was my only point which you now have agreed with and we literally have nothing to argue about because there was nothing worth arguing to begin with.

*Heavy sigh*

[rhorle]

If Tolkien were alive today the rights for a multi season television series based on the appendices would never have been floated to begin. Because it is literally giving a studio free reign to make up stories to fill time for hours of television.

We know that isn't true as I early pointed out. Because even an adaptation that he didn't like the script to was not killed by him because he liked the pictorial aspect. He also stated when talking about that same adaptation that it is the core or heart that needs to adhered to and not "no changes". He even apologized for coming across as overly harsh in response to some changes made.

The canons of narrative art in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.

...He has cut the parts of the story upon which its characteristic and peculiar tone principally depends, showing a preference for fights; and he has made no serious attempt to represent the heart of the tale adequately... https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_210

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle...st_J._Ackerman
From the Wikipedia article linked to above:

Nevertheless, Tolkien did not wish to kill the project, saying "I think [it] promised well on the pictorial side."[14]

- - - Updated - - -

Because the context of my entire argument was in reply to someone who said 'If Tolkien were alive today he would write the screenplay for Rings of Power', which you jumped into by thinking my reply somehow meant he was against any and all film adaptations.

Just look up his interviews and the comments his son has made in retrospect. Tolkien was adamant that his work was unadaptable as a movie. And considering he is dead, that is an opinion that dies with him.

Nope. You are trying to re-write history of your comments when they are there for everyone to see. You made the argument that he didn't want his work turned into a movie and that he considered it unadaptable. Hence why our discussion was about what he thought of adaptations. I've taken nothing out of context and you continually deflect into insults when you run out of a civil response.

Like I say again, if you don't think he would involve himself in a screenplay or adaptation because he never did in life, then that is and was my only point which you now have agreed with and we literally have nothing to argue about because there was nothing worth arguing to begin with.

I've shown to you many times where he did involve himself while alive. I'm not sure why you are still inventing reasons after all this time. Why keep asking questions and discussing if you just want to invent an argument?

[kenn9530]

Sigh, you can read a quote, but lack understanding - or for understanding to come to the simple. Elves are a lot of things, but the way Rings of power writes and shows them and Galadariel does not reflect the dignity, prestige, wisdom and character attributed to them.

Jus because Tolkien points out the reason behind them staying in Middle Earth, doesn't mean we should ignore their racial character in general, and alter it entirely, nor does it mean e should forget all the positive things about them that absolutely make them who they are and ought to be CLEARLY evident.

They are not just pretty humans with less defects.

Elves are just pretty humans with a few benefits, nothing more and even tolkien didnt say they were anything more than that, only a few elves are considered exceptional with other powers, the rest are normal soldiers or citizens that can die pretty easily.

[Triceron]

I've shown to you many times where he did involve himself while alive. I'm not sure why you are still inventing reasons after all this time. Why keep asking questions and discussing if you just want to invent an argument?

Reading the Boorman script didn't mean he was involving himself in its production. At that time he already sold the rights and wouldn't have been any position to change it regardless.

Like, what exactly are you trying to prove? Do you actually think JRR Tolkien would have directly supported Rings of Power the same way Simon Tolkien has? Cuz I flat out disagree if so. JRR Tolkien was much more conservative with his work, while Simon is much more liberal with the handling of the franchise.

[InfiniteCharger]

We know that isn't true as I early pointed out. Because even an adaptation that he didn't like the script to was not killed by him because he liked the pictorial aspect. He also stated when talking about that same adaptation that it is the core or heart that needs to adhered to and not "no changes". He even apologized for coming across as overly harsh in response to some changes made.

We know that the appendices were not a complete story and only included to provide some backstory and he had not published his notes or unfinished works like the Silmarillion before he died. Therefore, it is not true that he intended for the appendices, by themselves, to be used as the basis for some rights to be given to a studio to make a story of the second age. Christopher Tolkien only published those basically to fill out the information on the second and first ages based on what his father had started. The fact that he never published them before he died means that they weren't ready for public consumption and that included any kind of film or television treatment. Of course he wanted his story for the age of trees, first age and second age to be the definitive version of events and not events made up by third parties. If anything he would have wanted a proper story based on the entire legendarium to be the story of the 2nd age. And if he was alive I would assume he would have finished that story and those rights would be the only rights given for any kind of adaptation, not just the appendices.

[rhorle]

Reading the Boorman script didn't mean he was involving himself in its production. At that time he already sold the rights and wouldn't have been any position to change it regardless.

So we are backing to him having to be alive rather then at all. It is strange how you keep moving the goal posts depending on what response you need to disqualify at the time. You were using the context of your entire argument and not just "since he sold the rights". He may have been conservative with his work but he wasn't against adaptations as he worked several times to do just that. He was even working with UA to produce something before UA bought the rights. So the idea that he wouldn't be involved is silly.

- - - Updated - - -

Therefore, it is not true that he intended for the appendices, by themselves, to be used as the basis for some rights to be given to a studio to make a story of the second age.

He sold the rights to his work which means it doesn't matter if stuff was finished or not. His intent was to give away the rights. We even know that he wanted to rewrite his books several times so nothing was ever "finished" in his eyes. So it is silly to think that he would hold some work differently then others just because it wasn't a book or published. He didn't hold published as some special status.