Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

Against you saying he wouldn't?

But you admit you wouldn't know if he would or not either way yes?

So how are you arguing against my so-called claim? And why?

You'd have to employ a double standard in order to make a case that anyone would be right or wrong, because what we're talking about is speculation and opinion, not provable fact.

Did I say it was a fact Tolkien would never write a Rings of Power adaptation? No. The context of my statement was in speculation of what he would do if he were alive today, something which you're still ignoring the context of.

You think I wasn't aware of what you were talking about? No, I am very aware. You are talking out of context of speculation, therefore making erroneous arguments for the sake of shitposting. Pure delusion on your part.

I said clearly we have nothing to argue about because I am not claiming anything you are actually arguing here. I didn't claim anything as fact, the context of my reply is based in speculation.

Did you even read the other poster's original messages? No you didn't. Because you are only looking to argue with me for the sake of it. Stop trolling.

[kenn9530]

Whoi say i would not subject Tolkien to a standard? Tolkien standards are high, the standard of RoP is subterranean, because is awful, this is not double standard, one is good with all their flaws the other is pure garbage.

If the Author knew his work could be improved, you know its a good author , unlike someone who think the show is good and perfect.

Again, what you are doing is a lame strawman, Tolkien quality is not the subject here, but the show's, trying to say Tolkien's work is bad is an Argument against your precious show because the show is hundred times worse than anything Tolkien worked

Tolkiens work is just as flawed as everything can be, its a double standard to ignore the faults of the author just because you dont like RoP, i accept every show or film for what they are and dont hold them to any standard to a relevant author, they stand on thier own merits.

Tolkiens quality is subject because you are going after the quality of RoP based in tolkiens world, you cant have it both ways just because it goes against your weak argument.

- - - Updated - - -

You have to understand this person is just arguing for the sake of argue as well, everything he says is a fallacy to salvage an argument, is like a broken record.

Dude is basically saying tolkien work was bad and the show is good for reasons.

Everything has its own flaws, you should accept that simple reality, you can still enjoy something with flaws cant you and you can ignore all those flaws because you enjoy it.

- - - Updated - - -

You have posted contradictory information. Your first quote (that you didn't link to, I will here) states that 50 million copies were sold by 2003. Your second quote (source because you were too lazy) repeats the figures given by the director of publishing at HarperCollins, which are that 100 million copies were sold before the films were released.

But even if it were true that 'only' 50 million were sold before the 2001 film, you originally stated that "the movies were what made the series popular", and I would argue that sales of 50 million are quite enough to qualify the series as being popular.

I'm not going to keep responding to this particular issue as it's off-topic.

No my information says since you cant read 50 million sales by 2003 worldwide, 150 million sales by 2007 wordwide, the other statement state 1/3 of the total 150 million sales were sold after the first film release so that backs the 50 million sold by 2003 and total 150 million sales by 2007, its very simple to understand, the first 50 million sales were in 2003 not before the films release.

There are no sales numbers before the 50 million sales in 2003 and no information backs you up stating otherwise. It clearly states this in the link you posted with it, im not sure why you cant read it properly. It says after the films release not before the films release for the sales.

Thanks partly to filmmaker Peter Jackson, the Tolkien brand has never been stronger. Fully one-third of the 150 million copies of The Lord of the Rings sold to date were purchased after the release of the first film in the series. And now gamers can look forward to the April 24 release of Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar 2007 release

You were wrong just admit it.

[rhorle]

But you admit you wouldn't know if he would or not either way yes? So how are you arguing against my so-called claim? And why?

Lmao. You made a claim that it would go one way. I've been saying that it could go either way and using examples of it going the opposite way of what you claimed. It doesn't matter if you said it as a fact or not as you were still making a claim. I was countering that claim. The only pure delusion is from yourself as you've said you didn't know what I was talking about while now claiming you are very aware. Lmao.

[Triceron]

Tolkiens work is just as flawed as everything can be, its a double standard to ignore the faults of the author just because you dont like RoP, i accept every show or film for what they are and dont hold them to any standard to a relevant author, they stand on thier own merits.

It works both ways though. Rings of Power's flaws can't be excused because Tolkien's work is flawed either. You were the one who brought this double standard to the table. It actually isn't relevant whether Tolkien's work is flawed or not, because Rings of Power isn't based on amy actual story that Tolkien wrote. This is a new story written based on a bunch of scattered and collected notes that Tolkien had which were published post-humously. It was never intended to be developed into an actual story that would be adaptable for film.

[kenn9530]

It works both ways though. Rings of Power's flaws can't be excused because Tolkien's work is flawed either. You were the one who brought this double standard to the table. It actually isn't relevant whether Tolkien's work is flawed or not, because Rings of Power isn't based on amy actual story that Tolkien wrote. This is a new story written based on a bunch of scattered and collected notes that Tolkien had which were published post-humously. It was never intended to be developed into an actual story that would be adaptable for film.

Flaws dont make something bad, they are present in everything but too many hold tolkien to a different standard when it has just as many flaws as everything else, thats the problem where the more hardcore fans wont accept anything but tolkien flaws but a book doesnt always make for a great film/tv series, you should be grateful they are doing a LOTR show at all.

[Triceron]

Lmao. You made a claim that it would go one way. I've been saying that it could go either way and using examples of it going the opposite way of what you claimed. It doesn't matter if you said it as a fact or not as you were still making a claim. I was countering that claim. The only pure delusion is from yourself as you've said you didn't know what I was talking about while now claiming you are very aware. Lmao.

I was making a speculative argument and you are free to disagree if you wish, yet you weren't merely disagreeing you were implying that proof is needed to sustain a claim.

And frankly I don't need any evidence beyond the fact he sold the rights and remained hands off on film productions. If you want more proof, I can point at the fact that the Appendices were merely his working internal notes that were meant to support the Lord of the Rings, not material that was meant to be adapted into its own story.

To say it could go either way implies intention for things to happen, and I'm pretty clear on presenting my speculation based on there being no intention on Tolkien's part to involve himself in a live action film adaptation of the creation of the Rings. That is in direct reply to someone who said if he were alive, he would write a story about it for the Rings of Power show specifically. My point is there has not been any intent for that to happen, even if we were to speculate him if he had been alive, because he had sold the rights and distanced himself from such after deeming the whole process 'unfilmable'.

So if you are actually adamant on it being able to go either way, then do you really Tolkien would write Rings of Power based on all the proof you brought up. Would you say you think it would happen based on letter 201 and his work with United Artists?

I could agree that factually, it could go either way; anything is possible if we are talking about Zombie Tolkien being reality.
Speculatively speaking, it would be more likely that he wouldn't involve himself in making a screenplay for a Rings of Power film adaptation that is so vastly different from his own work.

[bledgor]

Guys stop engaging rhorle and kenn, they aren't arguing in good faith, and they don't use logic. you will have to descend to their level to talk, and you will lose because they don't care about facts or logic.

[kenn9530]

Guys stop engaging rhorle and kenn, they aren't arguing in good faith, and they don't use logic. you will have to descend to their level to talk, and you will lose because they don't care about facts or logic.

so according to you actual facts based in data is arguing in bad faith, you have just proven you are not arguing with any logic, the show is good get over it, your unfounded arguments cant prove otherwise.

Actual factual data will always trump someones personal feelings.

[Triceron]

Flaws dont make something bad, they are present in everything but too many hold tolkien to a different standard when it has just as many flaws as everything else, thats the problem where the more hardcore fans wont accept anything but tolkien flaws but a book doesnt always make for a great film/tv series, you should be grateful they are doing a LOTR show at all.

Flaws can make something bad though, wouldn't you agree?

And there are flaws in Rings if Power that make it bad, those being issues of pacing and focus. Many things should be cut which aren't, many plot elements are contrived and don't feel natural to the story, and there is an overall issue of setup and payoff.

That being said, Rings of Power is not conpletely flawed or conpletely bad. It's just not as great as you may think it is, either because you are overlooking the flaws or do not realize they are flaws at all.

[InfiniteCharger]

He sold the rights to his work which means it doesn't matter if stuff was finished or not. His intent was to give away the rights. We even know that he wanted to rewrite his books several times so nothing was ever "finished" in his eyes. So it is silly to think that he would hold some work differently then others just because it wasn't a book or published. He didn't hold published as some special status.

He sold film rights to the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit books and the appendices are included in the LOTR books. He never sold any rights to any appendices as justification for a television series covering the second age. These were sold by the Tolkien estate 5 years ago. So his intent was not to give the rights for an adaptation of the 2nd age based on the appendices because at that time, the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and his notes had not been published. Those are the main books covering the 2nd and prior ages, so if he didn't publish them, then obviously he didn't intend for people to read them let alone have movies or TV shows made about them. So the only thing he sold the rights for were the books as a whole to be made into films and it is those books that were his primary published work on Middle Earth before he died.

[kenn9530]

Flaws can make something bad though, wouldn't you agree?

And there are flaws in Rings if Power that make it bad, those being issues of pacing and focus. Many things should be cut which aren't, many plot elements are contrived and don't feel natural to the story, and there is an overall issue of setup and payoff.

That being said, Rings of Power is not conpletely flawed or conpletely bad. It's just not as great as you may think it is, either because you are overlooking the flaws or do not realize they are flaws at all.

Everything is flawed in its own way, its your own opinion if you think its bad or not, and most ppl dont think that way and dont care about flaws that are natural to have, these stories are made up there is no natural way to do anything when its all made up, it also doesnt need to follow tolkeins path if they dont want or if there was no path to even follow.

The only thing a tv series and film has to do is entertain and RoP does that job to a very good level.

[InfiniteCharger]

Flaws can make something bad though, wouldn't you agree?

And there are flaws in Rings if Power that make it bad, those being issues of pacing and focus. Many things should be cut which aren't, many plot elements are contrived and don't feel natural to the story, and there is an overall issue of setup and payoff.

That being said, Rings of Power is not conpletely flawed or conpletely bad. It's just not as great as you may think it is, either because you are overlooking the flaws or do not realize they are flaws at all.

That is a subjective statement though. Because for a lot of people those things are enough to make something bad. But it depends. There are some cases where such flaws will be accepted, because most films or TV shows have them, but it has to be balanced out by something appealing. And that varies by person and by specific title as to how much of the flaws will be accepted and outweighed by those elements they like. Obviously a tv show or series would want to put their best foot forward as much as possible to be generally appealing to as many people as possible.

[Xath]

It seems you are unable to read, the books sold 50 million in 2003, the films started in 2001 so most book sales are from how popular the films were, so dont talk BS now when it take 2 mins to look up some basic facts.

50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001

Which means 100 million were before genius

- - - Updated - - -

Its just simple facts im pointing out, plenty of flaws with the books themselves, so stop lying to yourself thinking they are better than they actually were, the films made the series popular, if you seriously think there were not plenty of flaws with the books then you are completely lying out your butt.

Star Citizen is good for anyone that like space games, anyone who enjoys space games and doesnt like star citizen is not one that can ever be trusted, the game is the best one of its type currently available even for an alpha so try again with your ignorant claims.

Star Citizen is trash and should have stayed vaporware to be spared becoming another Duke Nukem Forever much better to be Starcraft Ghost.

[kenn9530]

50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001

Which means 100 million were before genius

- - - Updated - - -



Star Citizen is trash and should have stayed vaporware to be spared becoming another Duke Nukem Forever much better to be Starcraft Ghost.

No the LOTR series sold 50 million by 2003, thats 2 years after the first movie, by 2007 the LOTR books had sold 150 million, do some basic research and you wont be embarrassed by incorrect information.

The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

What gives you the impression by the above information that 100 million copies were sold before the films, when it clearly states the series reached 150 million by 2007.

SC has already been proven to be the best game of its genre and its still in development, your lack of integrity trying to insult things clearly proves you know you are in the wrong. When ppl seriously post incorrect information easily refuted in 1 min its no doubt noone believes whats coming out your mouth.

[rhorle]

I was making a speculative argument and you are free to disagree if you wish, yet you weren't merely disagreeing you were implying that proof is needed to sustain a claim.

Proof is always need to prove a claim. Speculation doesn't change that. You don't know what his intent would have been if he was still alive. That is the point. It doesn't matter if it is speculation or factual. Both are the same. You are trying to speak for a dead guy on what he would do while restricting the evidence to only that which you think can't be refuted.

I'm not sure why you keep asking me what I think when it hasn't changed and you just referenced what I think. It could go either way. Tolkien could not want to involve himself or he could be interested enough to write or critique a script for Rings of Power. You even say you agree factually as you did before yet you still can't stop arguing as well. Speculatively or Factually it is the same answer. Refusing to accept them as the same just shows how you have to keep arguing just to argue rather then accept that we are both in agreement. Just as you did the last time you said there is no evidence or concrete proof to speculate on which means it could go either way as there is nothing to prove either side. Lol.

There is no concrete proof and evidence for the discussion of speculation

- - - Updated - - -

He sold film rights to the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit books and the appendices are included in the LOTR books. He never sold any rights to any appendices as justification for a television series covering the second age.

And? He was still fine with people making adaptations of his work. You are only making a distinction between work to argue just for the sake of it. He was offering his work for adaptations before he sold the rights. It is clear that he likely wouldn't have cared about his work outside of his two books being used to make an adaptation. Those things being unpublished simply means he didn't finalize them into a first draft. Even his published work wasn't "final" as he even wanted to re-write the entirety of The Hobbit in 1960. He also used his unpublished work to explain things to fans in order to support the two books which further shows it is silly to exclude them for an arbitrary reason just because you, as a Tolkien fan, need to exclude them.

[Xath]

No the LOTR series sold 50 million by 2003, thats 2 years after the first movie, by 2007 the LOTR books had sold 150 million, do some basic research and you wont be embarrassed by incorrect information.

The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

What gives you the impression by the above information that 100 million copies were sold before the films, when it clearly states the series reached 150 million by 2007.

SC has already been proven to be the best game of its genre and its still in development, your lack of integrity trying to insult things clearly proves you know you are in the wrong. When ppl seriously post incorrect information easily refuted in 1 min its no doubt noone believes whats coming out your mouth.

I literally quoted the article you linked they sold 50 million after Jackson's films released along with another 50 mil of non lotr Tolkien books. Star Citizen is trash much like your attempts at arguing.

Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001, plus 50 million copies of other Tolkien works.

[Triceron]

Proof is always need to prove a claim. Speculation doesn't change that.

And we both provided proof. If you disagree, then say so and move on.

I've already said what I needed to regarding your own assertion and I clearly disagree.

What more do you want to argue here? Stop trolling dude. Delusional, I swear.

[eschatological]

The two sentences in question contradict each other. One says that 50 million were sold "up to 2003," and that another 100m were sold between 2003 and 2007, raising the total to 150m.

The estimate by the publisher is that one third was sold AFTER the movie's release (in 2001), which explicitly infers 2/3rds sold before 2001, which would be 100m.

Either way, either LOTR sold 100m or 50m before the films, and that makes it pretty popular. Drop the issue.

As an aside, the cultural relevance of LOTR was huge in the 60s and 70s. Led Zeppelin, one of the biggest bands in the world, had multiple songs referencing or outright about LOTR.

[InfiniteCharger]

And? He was still fine with people making adaptations of his work. You are only making a distinction between work to argue just for the sake of it. He was offering his work for adaptations before he sold the rights. It is clear that he likely wouldn't have cared about his work outside of his two books being used to make an adaptation. Those things being unpublished simply means he didn't finalize them into a first draft. Even his published work wasn't "final" as he even wanted to re-write the entirety of The Hobbit in 1960. He also used his unpublished work to explain things to fans in order to support the two books which further shows it is silly to exclude them for an arbitrary reason just because you, as a Tolkien fan, need to exclude them.

You are making a false statement. He did not sell Amazon the TV series rights based on his appendices. That happened after he died by members of the Tolkien estate to make some money directly off the IP. His selling of the film rights for the books has absolutely nothing to do with this particular series because this was not something he was involved in. What you are doing is trying to conflate that with him selling the film rights to two books that were the only things he published before he died and the main story and IP that he cared about. Meaning he cared about having his stories as told in those books preserved intact as complete stories. Since the appendices are not a complete work or story he would absolutely not have sold them to make a television series that gives a studio free reign to make up a story of the 2nd age which he himself had not even finished writing in the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. This is why those works were unfinished and unpublished so to say that he intended them to be published is false because they weren't. And if he was going to allow a studio to make a TV series on that time period he would have likely written a more complete work set in the 2nd age in order to have a complete story that would be a reflection of his wishes for that age. What Amazon has is basically a narrow set of rights because the Salzance company and now Embracer group has all film rights to the Books and additionally a cut in any adaptations of the Silmarillion and Unfinished tales. So the rights that Amazon has are very limited in that they only basically have the rights to make up a story about the 2nd age based on what is in the appendices. Therefore they cannot tell a complete narrative that even ties into anything else because they don't have the rights. And I doubt very seriously that he would have agreed for such a project to begin with, because he didn't intend for the appendices to be a complete story in and of itself or for studios to be making up stories that contradict what he actually published.

[kenn9530]

The two sentences in question contradict each other. One says that 50 million were sold "up to 2003," and that another 100m were sold between 2003 and 2007, raising the total to 150m.

The estimate by the publisher is that one third was sold AFTER the movie's release (in 2001), which explicitly infers 2/3rds sold before 2001, which would be 100m.

Either way, either LOTR sold 100m or 50m before the films, and that makes it pretty popular. Drop the issue.

As an aside, the cultural relevance of LOTR was huge in the 60s and 70s. Led Zeppelin, one of the biggest bands in the world, had multiple songs referencing or outright about LOTR.

The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

Thanks partly to filmmaker Peter Jackson, the Tolkien brand has never been stronger. Fully one-third of the 150 million copies of The Lord of the Rings sold to date were purchased after the release of the first film in the series. And now gamers can look forward to the April 24 release of Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar. - this statement is from 2007.

"That's just in the U.S.," Harper says. "Tolkien has been a cultural phenomenon for years. The Lord of the Rings has sold 50 million copies worldwide. But there's been nothing like the audience growth we've experienced coinciding with the new movies. I know of no other publishing experience like it." This statement from 2003

So all the information proves that 50 million total sales of LOTR books were made by 2003 and the total only rose to 150 million by 2007, nowhere does it stated the sales were done before. Dont post incorrect information just because one article looks like they didnt word it properly, the 2003 article would of stated 150 million books sold wordwide otherwise.

If the 150 mill sales were done by 2003 then why has no more books sold by 2007, do you believe no books sold in 4 years straight after the release of all films. Note the article mentions the 1/3rd was sold just after the first film, that means the rest happened up to 2007 from the other films in the series with no mention of before the films release.

My origional statement still stands, that most of the success for LOTR series is due to the movies.

- - - Updated - - -

I literally quoted the article you linked they sold 50 million after Jackson's films released along with another 50 mil of non lotr Tolkien books. Star Citizen is trash much like your attempts at arguing.

Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001, plus 50 million copies of other Tolkien works.

See above you are proven to be incorrect, multiple sources stating 50 million sold in 2003, a badly worded article does nothing for you.