1. #6001
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

    Thanks partly to filmmaker Peter Jackson, the Tolkien brand has never been stronger. Fully one-third of the 150 million copies of The Lord of the Rings sold to date were purchased after the release of the first film in the series. And now gamers can look forward to the April 24 release of Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar.

    care to revised your clearly wrong statement. I can keep getting more data to prove you wrong.
    You have posted contradictory information. Your first quote (that you didn't link to, I will here) states that 50 million copies were sold by 2003. Your second quote (source because you were too lazy) repeats the figures given by the director of publishing at HarperCollins, which are that 100 million copies were sold before the films were released.

    But even if it were true that 'only' 50 million were sold before the 2001 film, you originally stated that "the movies were what made the series popular", and I would argue that sales of 50 million are quite enough to qualify the series as being popular.

    I'm not going to keep responding to this particular issue as it's off-topic.

  2. #6002
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    If you wont subject tolkiens work to a standard of quality how can you do the same for RoP, some double standards here, seems you cant take critism on an author that clearly knew his work could be improved, and the flaws are clear for anyone to see, you can still enjoy something regardless of flaws but they are still there for pretty much everything. You are reaching hard here because you are unable to back your own arguments.
    Whoi say i would not subject Tolkien to a standard? Tolkien standards are high, the standard of RoP is subterranean, because is awful, this is not double standard, one is good with all their flaws the other is pure garbage.

    If the Author knew his work could be improved, you know its a good author , unlike someone who think the show is good and perfect.

    Again, what you are doing is a lame strawman, Tolkien quality is not the subject here, but the show's, trying to say Tolkien's work is bad is an Argument against your precious show because the show is hundred times worse than anything Tolkien worked

  3. #6003
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Once again I am not talking about sales, why you keep talking about sales with me... You were arguing sales with the other guy.
    Sales is relevant to popularity because without them how are you going to read the book or not, i would hardly call a few hundred thousand really popular back in those days especially when books would of been far more popular than now, unless it has millions of followers then its not really popular.
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  4. #6004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Once again I am not talking about sales, why you keep talking about sales with me...
    You have to understand this person is just arguing for the sake of argue as well, everything he says is a fallacy to salvage an argument, is like a broken record.

    Dude is basically saying tolkien work was bad and the show is good for reasons.

  5. #6005
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Sales is relevant to popularity because without them how are you going to read the book or not, i would hardly call a few hundred thousand really popular back in those days especially when books would of been far more popular than now, unless it has millions of followers then its not really popular.
    Sure if you want to drag sales into this fine, but once again its said that in the 60's which I have constantly given you sources for have said he had a explosion of popularity in sales for his books in the 60's. Maybe not as much as when the movie came out but big enough for Tolkien to be well recognised as a house hold name, not a small following.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You have to understand this person is just arguing for the sake of argue as well, everything he says is a fallacy to salvage an argument, is like a broken record.

    Dude is basically saying tolkien work was bad and the show is good for reasons.
    I got to go to bed soon so if he aint getting it after this I am off lol. Too old for this shit, :P
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-10-01 at 09:12 PM.
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  6. #6006
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    By your own admission, no one knows. By your own admission, your own examples of Tolkien working with UA would be wrong because no one still knows what he would do after. What the fuck are you arguing?
    Against you saying he wouldn't? I would think for someone that kept referencing context and what not that would be clear. I've said from the start that no one can say either way and have been providing examples to counter the times you said he was against adaptations or being involved in adaptations. If you weren't aware what we were discussing it just shows how you projecting arguing for the sake of it onto me. As you argued with out knowing what it is we were discussing. Lol.
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  7. #6007
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Against you saying he wouldn't?
    But you admit you wouldn't know if he would or not either way yes?

    So how are you arguing against my so-called claim? And why?

    You'd have to employ a double standard in order to make a case that anyone would be right or wrong, because what we're talking about is speculation and opinion, not provable fact.

    Did I say it was a fact Tolkien would never write a Rings of Power adaptation? No. The context of my statement was in speculation of what he would do if he were alive today, something which you're still ignoring the context of.

    You think I wasn't aware of what you were talking about? No, I am very aware. You are talking out of context of speculation, therefore making erroneous arguments for the sake of shitposting. Pure delusion on your part.

    I said clearly we have nothing to argue about because I am not claiming anything you are actually arguing here. I didn't claim anything as fact, the context of my reply is based in speculation.

    Did you even read the other poster's original messages? No you didn't. Because you are only looking to argue with me for the sake of it. Stop trolling.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-01 at 09:23 PM.

  8. #6008
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Whoi say i would not subject Tolkien to a standard? Tolkien standards are high, the standard of RoP is subterranean, because is awful, this is not double standard, one is good with all their flaws the other is pure garbage.

    If the Author knew his work could be improved, you know its a good author , unlike someone who think the show is good and perfect.

    Again, what you are doing is a lame strawman, Tolkien quality is not the subject here, but the show's, trying to say Tolkien's work is bad is an Argument against your precious show because the show is hundred times worse than anything Tolkien worked
    Tolkiens work is just as flawed as everything can be, its a double standard to ignore the faults of the author just because you dont like RoP, i accept every show or film for what they are and dont hold them to any standard to a relevant author, they stand on thier own merits.

    Tolkiens quality is subject because you are going after the quality of RoP based in tolkiens world, you cant have it both ways just because it goes against your weak argument.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You have to understand this person is just arguing for the sake of argue as well, everything he says is a fallacy to salvage an argument, is like a broken record.

    Dude is basically saying tolkien work was bad and the show is good for reasons.
    Everything has its own flaws, you should accept that simple reality, you can still enjoy something with flaws cant you and you can ignore all those flaws because you enjoy it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    You have posted contradictory information. Your first quote (that you didn't link to, I will here) states that 50 million copies were sold by 2003. Your second quote (source because you were too lazy) repeats the figures given by the director of publishing at HarperCollins, which are that 100 million copies were sold before the films were released.

    But even if it were true that 'only' 50 million were sold before the 2001 film, you originally stated that "the movies were what made the series popular", and I would argue that sales of 50 million are quite enough to qualify the series as being popular.

    I'm not going to keep responding to this particular issue as it's off-topic.
    No my information says since you cant read 50 million sales by 2003 worldwide, 150 million sales by 2007 wordwide, the other statement state 1/3 of the total 150 million sales were sold after the first film release so that backs the 50 million sold by 2003 and total 150 million sales by 2007, its very simple to understand, the first 50 million sales were in 2003 not before the films release.

    There are no sales numbers before the 50 million sales in 2003 and no information backs you up stating otherwise. It clearly states this in the link you posted with it, im not sure why you cant read it properly. It says after the films release not before the films release for the sales.

    Thanks partly to filmmaker Peter Jackson, the Tolkien brand has never been stronger. Fully one-third of the 150 million copies of The Lord of the Rings sold to date were purchased after the release of the first film in the series. And now gamers can look forward to the April 24 release of Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar 2007 release

    You were wrong just admit it.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2022-10-01 at 09:33 PM.
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  9. #6009
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But you admit you wouldn't know if he would or not either way yes? So how are you arguing against my so-called claim? And why?
    Lmao. You made a claim that it would go one way. I've been saying that it could go either way and using examples of it going the opposite way of what you claimed. It doesn't matter if you said it as a fact or not as you were still making a claim. I was countering that claim. The only pure delusion is from yourself as you've said you didn't know what I was talking about while now claiming you are very aware. Lmao.
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  10. #6010
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Tolkiens work is just as flawed as everything can be, its a double standard to ignore the faults of the author just because you dont like RoP, i accept every show or film for what they are and dont hold them to any standard to a relevant author, they stand on thier own merits.
    It works both ways though. Rings of Power's flaws can't be excused because Tolkien's work is flawed either. You were the one who brought this double standard to the table. It actually isn't relevant whether Tolkien's work is flawed or not, because Rings of Power isn't based on amy actual story that Tolkien wrote. This is a new story written based on a bunch of scattered and collected notes that Tolkien had which were published post-humously. It was never intended to be developed into an actual story that would be adaptable for film.

  11. #6011
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It works both ways though. Rings of Power's flaws can't be excused because Tolkien's work is flawed either. You were the one who brought this double standard to the table. It actually isn't relevant whether Tolkien's work is flawed or not, because Rings of Power isn't based on amy actual story that Tolkien wrote. This is a new story written based on a bunch of scattered and collected notes that Tolkien had which were published post-humously. It was never intended to be developed into an actual story that would be adaptable for film.
    Flaws dont make something bad, they are present in everything but too many hold tolkien to a different standard when it has just as many flaws as everything else, thats the problem where the more hardcore fans wont accept anything but tolkien flaws but a book doesnt always make for a great film/tv series, you should be grateful they are doing a LOTR show at all.
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  12. #6012
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Lmao. You made a claim that it would go one way. I've been saying that it could go either way and using examples of it going the opposite way of what you claimed. It doesn't matter if you said it as a fact or not as you were still making a claim. I was countering that claim. The only pure delusion is from yourself as you've said you didn't know what I was talking about while now claiming you are very aware. Lmao.
    I was making a speculative argument and you are free to disagree if you wish, yet you weren't merely disagreeing you were implying that proof is needed to sustain a claim.

    And frankly I don't need any evidence beyond the fact he sold the rights and remained hands off on film productions. If you want more proof, I can point at the fact that the Appendices were merely his working internal notes that were meant to support the Lord of the Rings, not material that was meant to be adapted into its own story.

    To say it could go either way implies intention for things to happen, and I'm pretty clear on presenting my speculation based on there being no intention on Tolkien's part to involve himself in a live action film adaptation of the creation of the Rings. That is in direct reply to someone who said if he were alive, he would write a story about it for the Rings of Power show specifically. My point is there has not been any intent for that to happen, even if we were to speculate him if he had been alive, because he had sold the rights and distanced himself from such after deeming the whole process 'unfilmable'.

    So if you are actually adamant on it being able to go either way, then do you really Tolkien would write Rings of Power based on all the proof you brought up. Would you say you think it would happen based on letter 201 and his work with United Artists?

    I could agree that factually, it could go either way; anything is possible if we are talking about Zombie Tolkien being reality.
    Speculatively speaking, it would be more likely that he wouldn't involve himself in making a screenplay for a Rings of Power film adaptation that is so vastly different from his own work.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-01 at 10:21 PM.

  13. #6013
    Guys stop engaging rhorle and kenn, they aren't arguing in good faith, and they don't use logic. you will have to descend to their level to talk, and you will lose because they don't care about facts or logic.
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  14. #6014
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Guys stop engaging rhorle and kenn, they aren't arguing in good faith, and they don't use logic. you will have to descend to their level to talk, and you will lose because they don't care about facts or logic.
    so according to you actual facts based in data is arguing in bad faith, you have just proven you are not arguing with any logic, the show is good get over it, your unfounded arguments cant prove otherwise.

    Actual factual data will always trump someones personal feelings.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2022-10-01 at 10:04 PM.
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  15. #6015
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Flaws dont make something bad, they are present in everything but too many hold tolkien to a different standard when it has just as many flaws as everything else, thats the problem where the more hardcore fans wont accept anything but tolkien flaws but a book doesnt always make for a great film/tv series, you should be grateful they are doing a LOTR show at all.
    Flaws can make something bad though, wouldn't you agree?

    And there are flaws in Rings if Power that make it bad, those being issues of pacing and focus. Many things should be cut which aren't, many plot elements are contrived and don't feel natural to the story, and there is an overall issue of setup and payoff.

    That being said, Rings of Power is not conpletely flawed or conpletely bad. It's just not as great as you may think it is, either because you are overlooking the flaws or do not realize they are flaws at all.

  16. #6016
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    He sold the rights to his work which means it doesn't matter if stuff was finished or not. His intent was to give away the rights. We even know that he wanted to rewrite his books several times so nothing was ever "finished" in his eyes. So it is silly to think that he would hold some work differently then others just because it wasn't a book or published. He didn't hold published as some special status.
    He sold film rights to the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit books and the appendices are included in the LOTR books. He never sold any rights to any appendices as justification for a television series covering the second age. These were sold by the Tolkien estate 5 years ago. So his intent was not to give the rights for an adaptation of the 2nd age based on the appendices because at that time, the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and his notes had not been published. Those are the main books covering the 2nd and prior ages, so if he didn't publish them, then obviously he didn't intend for people to read them let alone have movies or TV shows made about them. So the only thing he sold the rights for were the books as a whole to be made into films and it is those books that were his primary published work on Middle Earth before he died.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-10-01 at 10:17 PM.

  17. #6017
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Flaws can make something bad though, wouldn't you agree?

    And there are flaws in Rings if Power that make it bad, those being issues of pacing and focus. Many things should be cut which aren't, many plot elements are contrived and don't feel natural to the story, and there is an overall issue of setup and payoff.

    That being said, Rings of Power is not conpletely flawed or conpletely bad. It's just not as great as you may think it is, either because you are overlooking the flaws or do not realize they are flaws at all.
    Everything is flawed in its own way, its your own opinion if you think its bad or not, and most ppl dont think that way and dont care about flaws that are natural to have, these stories are made up there is no natural way to do anything when its all made up, it also doesnt need to follow tolkeins path if they dont want or if there was no path to even follow.

    The only thing a tv series and film has to do is entertain and RoP does that job to a very good level.
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  18. #6018
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Flaws can make something bad though, wouldn't you agree?

    And there are flaws in Rings if Power that make it bad, those being issues of pacing and focus. Many things should be cut which aren't, many plot elements are contrived and don't feel natural to the story, and there is an overall issue of setup and payoff.

    That being said, Rings of Power is not conpletely flawed or conpletely bad. It's just not as great as you may think it is, either because you are overlooking the flaws or do not realize they are flaws at all.
    That is a subjective statement though. Because for a lot of people those things are enough to make something bad. But it depends. There are some cases where such flaws will be accepted, because most films or TV shows have them, but it has to be balanced out by something appealing. And that varies by person and by specific title as to how much of the flaws will be accepted and outweighed by those elements they like. Obviously a tv show or series would want to put their best foot forward as much as possible to be generally appealing to as many people as possible.

  19. #6019
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It seems you are unable to read, the books sold 50 million in 2003, the films started in 2001 so most book sales are from how popular the films were, so dont talk BS now when it take 2 mins to look up some basic facts.
    50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001

    Which means 100 million were before genius

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Its just simple facts im pointing out, plenty of flaws with the books themselves, so stop lying to yourself thinking they are better than they actually were, the films made the series popular, if you seriously think there were not plenty of flaws with the books then you are completely lying out your butt.

    Star Citizen is good for anyone that like space games, anyone who enjoys space games and doesnt like star citizen is not one that can ever be trusted, the game is the best one of its type currently available even for an alpha so try again with your ignorant claims.
    Star Citizen is trash and should have stayed vaporware to be spared becoming another Duke Nukem Forever much better to be Starcraft Ghost.

  20. #6020
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001

    Which means 100 million were before genius

    - - - Updated - - -



    Star Citizen is trash and should have stayed vaporware to be spared becoming another Duke Nukem Forever much better to be Starcraft Ghost.
    No the LOTR series sold 50 million by 2003, thats 2 years after the first movie, by 2007 the LOTR books had sold 150 million, do some basic research and you wont be embarrassed by incorrect information.

    The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

    What gives you the impression by the above information that 100 million copies were sold before the films, when it clearly states the series reached 150 million by 2007.

    SC has already been proven to be the best game of its genre and its still in development, your lack of integrity trying to insult things clearly proves you know you are in the wrong. When ppl seriously post incorrect information easily refuted in 1 min its no doubt noone believes whats coming out your mouth.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2022-10-01 at 10:50 PM.
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