Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

He didn't sell the rights to ANYBODY for a story of the 2nd age because he never wrote a complete story of the second age.

Right. That still doesn't mean he wouldn't have because he sold rights to his other works. Those rights also included "limited matching rights" if his other work was ever brought to screen. He was fine with his story being drastically changed because the rights didn't require X rules for adaptations. The only one making stuff up here is yourself because you are trying to definitively state what Tolkien would do. I have repeatedly say there is nothing to indicate either way what he would do. While you, and others, keep trying to state that he wouldn't have done something. Do you understand the difference?

He didn't intend the entire story to be a whole because he didn't have the entire story finished. Again he wanted to re-write the hobbit to better fit the world of Lord of the Rings. He was constantly changing his world where he wanted to make the world no longer flat. So he was fine with the story being piecemeal because that is how he wrote and how he considered his own work. He wrote things in pieces and went back and fixed or changed things as needed for those new pieces to fit.

Also lol at you interjecting "it's not canon" into this discussion as well. You really can't seem to digest that part so it is always being regurgitated. I'm also pretty sure Amazon knew the risks they were taking and I'm pretty sure Christopher Tolkien new more about protecting his fathers legacy then some random upset fan on a forum.

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I think now that the dust is settling one question remains. How many pity seasons are they going to give this show like they are currently doing with wheel of time to hide the fact it's an embarrassing flop?

The show will have 5 seasons. It has is currently successful and popular so calling it "pity" just because you don't' like the show is silly.

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Did Tolkien ever describe Elves going to the toilet ? If not, can we assume they do not need to go to the toilet ?

Doesn't that also mean that we can assume Elves had barbers and might sometimes cut their hair shorter? That wasn't the zinger you imagined it to be lol.

[Specialka]

Right. That still doesn't mean he wouldn't have because he sold rights to his other works. Those rights also included "limited matching rights" if his other work was ever brought to screen. He was fine with his story being drastically changed because the rights didn't require X rules for adaptations. The only one making stuff up here is yourself because you are trying to definitively state what Tolkien would do. I have repeatedly say there is nothing to indicate either way what he would do. While you, and others, keep trying to state that he wouldn't have done something. Do you understand the difference?

He didn't intend the entire story to be a whole because he didn't have the entire story finished. Again he wanted to re-write the hobbit to better fit the world of Lord of the Rings. He was constantly changing his world where he wanted to make the world no longer flat. So he was fine with the story being piecemeal because that is how he wrote and how he considered his own work. He wrote things in pieces and went back and fixed or changed things as needed for those new pieces to fit.

Also lol at you interjecting "it's not canon" into this discussion as well. You really can't seem to digest that part so it is always being regurgitated. I'm also pretty sure Amazon knew the risks they were taking and I'm pretty sure Christopher Tolkien new more about protecting his fathers legacy then some random upset fan on a forum.

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The show will have 5 seasons. It has is currently successful and popular so calling it "pity" just because you don't' like the show is silly.

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Doesn't that also mean that we can assume Elves had barbers and might sometimes cut their hair shorter? That wasn't the zinger you imagined it to be lol.

It totally was but you just missed the point (not surprised about that though). And as for their hair, it probably is that they do not need to cut them as they would probably grow very slowly as the Elves do overall.

[Celement]

That seems like a silly concept. Businesses aren't in the habit of keeping costly products around just to make it look like they're profitable or something.

Star trek and wheel of time beg to differ.

[rhorle]

It totally was but you just missed the point (not surprised about that though). And as for their hair, it probably is that they do not need to cut them as they would probably grow very slowly as the Elves do overall.

I didn't miss the point. If we can assume they go to the bathroom we can assume they have barbers that can cut their hair short, right? Wouldn't that mean that Elves would have short hair when younger and only have long hair when older? So short hair elves would be a thing? What age do they get their long hair? Does it just magically sprout into being at puberty (age 15), when they get their adult height (age 50) or when they are full grown ( age 100+)?

What is Elven hair made of? Could an orc scalp an elf and use it in place of rope? As according to you we can't assume the hair can be cut so it must be super strong? Or is it simply that Elves can cut their hair and Tolkien never wrote about hair styles and trends that we can assume existed in their culture?

[kenn9530]

You are wrong really don't know any easier way to state it than that. As Eschat said LoTR was hugely relevant with LZ referencing it multiple times and of course the Nimoy Bilbo song. Heck I grew up having it read to me my first memorized piece was Far Over Misty Mountains Cold from The Hobbit which I did for recitation in first grade. This would be before the movies.

The bells were ringing in the dale
And men looked up with faces pale
The dragon's ire, more fierce than fire
Laid low their towers and houses frail

etc.

Wrong about what, im not wrong about the numbers or that the films are what actually propelled people to actually buy the books since most of the book sales happened after the first film, so the films are what made LOTRs so popular and without them they would only be know to people who like books, so its been you who was wrong abou the numbers and the main reason why its successful.

The TV series is successful regardless of what you think.

[InfiniteCharger]

Right. That still doesn't mean he wouldn't have because he sold rights to his other works. Those rights also included "limited matching rights" if his other work was ever brought to screen. He was fine with his story being drastically changed because the rights didn't require X rules for adaptations. The only one making stuff up here is yourself because you are trying to definitively state what Tolkien would do. I have repeatedly say there is nothing to indicate either way what he would do. While you, and others, keep trying to state that he wouldn't have done something. Do you understand the difference?

He didn't intend the entire story to be a whole because he didn't have the entire story finished. Again he wanted to re-write the hobbit to better fit the world of Lord of the Rings. He was constantly changing his world where he wanted to make the world no longer flat. So he was fine with the story being piecemeal because that is how he wrote and how he considered his own work. He wrote things in pieces and went back and fixed or changed things as needed for those new pieces to fit.

Also lol at you interjecting "it's not canon" into this discussion as well. You really can't seem to digest that part so it is always being regurgitated. I'm also pretty sure Amazon knew the risks they were taking and I'm pretty sure Christopher Tolkien new more about protecting his fathers legacy then some random upset fan on a forum.

You are going in circles and just denying the simple facts as I mentioned. And those facts are that he did not intend for the appendices by themselves to be the complete story of the second age or to be sold separately as the basis for some studio making a story of the 2nd age. None of those things happened when he was alive. I heard you the first time and you just keep repeating your invalid statement. Him selling the book rights for Lord of The Rings and The Hobbit does not mean intended and would approve of the appendices to be sold separately as the basis for a story of the second age. If anything he would have had to finish his full legendarium before he died and published them before even thinking about giving someone the rights to adapt that story. And this is where you keep using that invalid argument that selling the rights to LOTR and the Hobbit, which were full complete books, meant he would be OK with making a story of the 2nd age based on partial or incomplete notes and appendices. That is absolute nonsense. And you are absolutely making up something because there are no facts to back it up. If the rights he sold were all that were required, then the Tolkien Estate would not have had to found a loop hole in order to create the basis for this series to begin with. Using a loophole to justify this series means, by definition, this was not something that was covered in the original rights sold to United Artists by Tolkien. Which contradicts everything you are saying.

The only way canon comes into this is in the fact that only Tolkien had the ability to make new canon in the world of Arda. And nowhere has the Tolkien estate ever authorized any writer or artist to come up with a new extension to Tolkien's canon. Therefore for the foreseeable future, no studio, author or artist can make canon stories in Tolkien's world. And if they did do so, it would start as a written work, not as a film or television show. At best the only thing these rights are allowing these companies to do is interpretations of possible stories that could have occurred in Tolkien's world, starting with the books he published and extending to other ages for which he left much less written information. That is a simple fact regardless of who has the rights to make a film or television show in the Tolkien universe, because Tolkien's work and copyrights are primarily for his books and that is the primary source of the story for his world and will remain that way for perpetuity. Movies based on those and anything else will be purely for the purposes of visualizing these works on the screen and entertainment value but not for the purposes of actually expanding the canon unless the Tolkien estate explicitly deems it as such. But generally film rights to an existing work by authors long dead are hardly ever seen as 'canon' to the original work and at best become their own separate world which becomes a separate canon unto itself. However, given the fact that this is one of the best selling works of literary fiction of all time, it is quite unlikely that any of these attempts to bring Tolkien to the screen will ever surpass the books as the source of the actual canon story in the minds of most audiences.


All you are trying to do in bringing up this point about canon is to try and muddy the waters, which is what Amazon has been doing by marketing this show as a prequel to LOTR. This series is not a literal cannon prequel to LOTR, and Amazon themselves state otherwise, even though they tried to mislead people into thinking it was. And it cannot be because they don't have the rights, which goes back to the fact that the existence of these rights come from a loophole and not from anything authorized by Tolkien himself.

[rhorle]

You are going in circles and just denying the simple facts as I mentioned. And those facts are that he did not intend for the appendices by themselves to be the complete story of the second age or to be sold separately as the basis for some studio making a story of the 2nd age.

But they aren't the complete story even now. If he didn't include them in his first sale of rights then obviously they were intended to potentially be sold separately, right? Otherwise wouldn't they have been sold with the other rights? The only one going in circles here is yourself. You keep repeating the same thing and bring up other things that are not relevant.

Limited matching rights exist for his other work. It was either included in the original sale or included in 1976. The information is unclear on that but rights to the other work have existed since at least 1976 if not earlier. He didn't think of his work as "finished once published" which is what you keep ignoring as well. I am not making things up. Everything I have said is backed by his opinions and actions.

The rights to a limited TV series were not part of the original deal which has nothing to do with "unpublished work". You even indicate, with that argument, that rights to some of his unpublished works were previously sold if Amazon couldn't buy the rights to use all that "unpublished work", right? Lmao.

[Ealyssa]

I think now that the dust is settling one question remains. How many pity seasons are they going to give this show like they are currently doing with wheel of time to hide the fact it's an embarrassing flop?

"ItS a fLoP BeKauZ I sAy So"

God you're cringe. Amazon isn't in the business of keeping things that don't work.

[kenn9530]

I think now that the dust is settling one question remains. How many pity seasons are they going to give this show like they are currently doing with wheel of time to hide the fact it's an embarrassing flop?

You clearly dont understand what a flop is or not, more ppl like the show than dont like it, so your personal feelings dont actually matter.

[InfiniteCharger]

But they aren't the complete story even now. If he didn't include them in his first sale of rights then obviously they were intended to potentially be sold separately, right? Otherwise wouldn't they have been sold with the other rights? The only one going in circles here is yourself. You keep repeating the same thing and bring up other things that are not relevant.

Limited matching rights exist for his other work. It was either included in the original sale or included in 1976. The information is unclear on that but rights to the other work have existed since at least 1976 if not earlier. He didn't think of his work as "finished once published" which is what you keep ignoring as well. I am not making things up. Everything I have said is backed by his opinions and actions.

The rights to a limited TV series were not part of the original deal which has nothing to do with "unpublished work". You even indicate, with that argument, that rights to some of his unpublished works were previously sold if Amazon couldn't buy the rights to use all that "unpublished work", right? Lmao.

Tolkien sold the rights for the two complete stories he published before he died. That's it. Those are the simple facts and there is nothing really else to say. Anything else took place after he died and has absolutely nothing to do with what the man authorized or intended. That is a simple as it gets and there is nothing complex about it. Those incomplete works were never published before he died, so the fact that they are unfinished is irrelevant to the point that they were never covered in anything he actually sold the rights to. If that wasn't the case then they would not have had to find a loophole for the creation of this series. Everything else you are bringing up is not changing those facts.

And note this has absolutely nothing to do with whether I may or may not like any specific incarnation of any movie or film interpretation of his work whether or not it is canon. That is purely a separate issue.

[Triceron]

So after rewatching this episode, I think I've come to the conclusion that the entire Elf Watchtower and Arondir parts could be omitted completely, and the story would still work.

Arondir seems to have no real lasting ties to the main plot whatsoever. The show wants to present him as a main character, but he's got no real ties to anything related to the main plot. Everything would still happen if it were literally an abandoned watchtower that the Humans sought refuge in. Even his interactions with Adar were merely a means to an end, with most of Adar's characterization really shining with Galadriel's interrogation more than anything we got out of Arondir's encounter.

I don't have anything against Arondir's character or the Elves being in the Southlands, but in retrospect of what we've seen now, it all seems like Peter Jackson's Tauriel and Radagast filler in the Hobbit. Like, just adding characters to fill time and space who don't really contribute to the main plot. Like, what does Arondir really contribute other than being given a cool moment at the watchtower which doesn't really phase the Orc attack on the village at all.

If they cut out the entire Southland Elves and just focused on the Human arc, we could have saved an episode and a half.

[DarkAmbient]

Any theories on how Galadriel and everyone in the village are going to survive gigantic clouds of fire and superheated ash?

[Theangryone]

Why would Tolkien have even bothered to sell the rights to the Second age? Or the First? The First age started in the Year of the Trees with the Awakening of the Elves and the latter part began with the creation of the Sun and awakening of Man, which lasted about 600 years and ended with the defeat of Morgoth.

The Second age lasted about 3700 years. Sauron reappeared around SA 500, the rings were forged around SA 1600, and the Numenorians fell at the end of the second age. Why would he sell a 3700 year long story to someone?

[Kreuger]

Any theories on how Galadriel and everyone in the village are going to survive gigantic clouds of fire and superheated ash?

Seen some stuff on reddit that claims the distance is so long between where Galadriel is and the mountain that the ash arent that hot, more like 50-100f.

But Im also assuming they arent going for "accuracy" in that scene , more visuals

[Triceron]

Being there as the Orcs do their thing and Mordor forms gives him no ties to the plot? Interesting take

Yes because the Orcs would still do their thing following the Southlands Human plot. Just literally disconnect Arondir and the Watchtower Elves being, follow the Southland Humans instead, nothing would really change plot-wise.

[Mace]

So Tolkien states one thing but since it doesn't agree with your view we need to ignore it. Lol. The only one not understanding or "simple" here is yourself. You keep trying to cling to the ideal you've created for elves when that never existed in reality. Tolkien refers to Galadariel as an "amazon" in her youth. And that she rebelled against the Valar and refused forgiveness or a return at the end of the first age. So she was similar to how the show depicts her. There are already hints at her being to close to darkness that shoe learns to control by the third age when she meets Frodo.

Tolkien also intended the elves to be similar to Humans.

Convenient, you are using Tolkien's explanation that elves aren't infallible to justify the mis-representation of them in Rings of Power, then coming round to tell me that Tolkien doesn't agree with my view.

You ignore everything Tolkien shows and says about the elves, and use a phrase to to justify their mis-representation in order to fit your denial of the abuse and bastardaization RoP does of his works, which the elves in RoP (particularly Galadriel and the Elven nation) show quite clearly.

These are clearly not the same elves Tolkien wrote about.

[DarkAmbient]

Seen some stuff on reddit that claims the distance is so long between where Galadriel is and the mountain that the ash arent that hot, more like 50-100f.

But Im also assuming they arent going for "accuracy" in that scene , more visuals

Only problem with that is that in the promo trailer for episode 7 you see the entire village destroyed and burning and the whole sky is red. It looks unsurvivable. So the show is going to have to do something interesting to explain how they all survive.

[Kreuger]

Only problem with that is that in the promo trailer for episode 7 you see the entire village destroyed and burning and the whole sky is red. It looks unsurvivable. So the show is going to have to do something interesting to explain how they all survive.

oh, havent seen the promo so didnt know that. Will be interesting to see how they explain things

[Orby]

Mount Doom is the wuss of volancoes... Vesuvius laughs...

I half expect the cast to NOT look like this next episode



also I have been to the ruins of Pompeii... it so surreal by the way. Most of these casts in the picture would most likely be in musems, I never saw many when i was there.

[rhorle]

Those incomplete works were never published before he died, so the fact that they are unfinished is irrelevant to the point that they were never covered in anything he actually sold the rights to. If that wasn't the case then they would not have had to find a loophole for the creation of this series. Everything else you are bringing up is not changing those facts.

Except those unfinished works did have the right sold. As earlier as 1976 the Saul Zaentz Company (who got the rights from UA and/or Estate) had limited matching rights to the any film adaptation of those unfinished works. It was either as the original deal or as a deal Christopher made. If it was Christopher those rights would have been made a year prior to the Similarillion being published.

The argument you are making though is silly because it means that Canon is only what Tolkien published in his books. Yet almost all fans accept his unpublished work as "official". Which means you are creating a standard that most people don't follow. It is also silly to say them being unfinished is irrelevant when your entire argument is that they can be excluded from "Tolkien being okay with adaptations" because of them being unfinished.

Again the Loophole had to do with a TV series and a few other things that were not explicitly covered by existing rights deals. Notice how the Similarillion is not one of those things Amazon has the rights to and is not part of the "loophole". Of course this has everything to do with you not liking Rings of Power or the way it uses Tolkien's world. If you didn't have a problem you wouldn't be arguing so hard about how it goes the wishes of the original creator.

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Convenient, you are using Tolkien's explanation that elves aren't infallible to justify the mis-representation of them in Rings of Power, then coming round to tell me that Tolkien doesn't agree with my view. You ignore everything Tolkien shows and says about the elves, and use a phrase to to justify their mis-representation in order to fit your denial of the abuse and bastardaization RoP does of his works, which the elves in RoP (particularly Galadriel and the Elven nation) show quite clearly.

So I use Tolkien's words to prove you wrong but somehow I'm ignoring everything Tolkien says? Lmao. Pure projection. The Elves do not fit your view of them yet you choose to go with your head canon over that of the author. I have never denied that Rings of Power changes his works. Some things however change little or nothing at all when you actually get into depths of his work. Stop inventing arguments simply because you weren't correct about one aspect of Tolkien's world.