Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[s_bushido]

Are you smoking?

I see. Instead of just admitting you were wrong and getting over it, you instead admit that you were wrong but have to salvage it with this "they both fell off a roof, but it's bad because they didn't instantly recover and start fighting again!!!" bullshit. /wanking motion

Couldn't take a moment to consider that maybe he was dazed/winded after hitting the ground? You know...since he was panting heavily? Or that he lost his weapon in the fall and had to go pick it up before attacking again?

No. Of course not. Because "the show's bad, so I'm going to be as uncharitable as possible about every little detail to make it seem even worse."

It's downright pathetic.

On second thought, I was wrong: It's fucking pathetic.

[Kumorii]

I see. Instead of just admitting you were wrong and getting over it, you instead admit that you were wrong but have to salvage it with this "they both fell off a roof, but it's bad because they didn't instantly recover and start fighting again!!!" bullshit. /wanking motion

Couldn't take a moment to consider that maybe he was dazed/winded after hitting the ground? You know...since he was panting heavily? Or that he lost his weapon in the fall and had to go pick it up before attacking again?

No. Of course not. Because "the show's bad, so I'm going to be as uncharitable as possible about every little detail to make it seem even worse."

It's downright pathetic.

On second thought, I was wrong: It's fucking pathetic.

Salvage? It was the original point... the one you didn't even defend. You instead went to the "he came back and got killed". Which had nothing to do with the point.

I guess it's projection though since this post of yours sure is trying to salvage your awful mischaracterization of my argument into a strawman and double down on it with "Just imagine the show makes sense" instead of the show, you know, showing things so it makes sense.
Show the orc being winded or dazed. Show him grab a weapon... that would actually make the scene a bit more fun to watch as well.

lets not even mention with the bad attitude in your approach of this convo. Ironic like Galadriel teaching Isildur about humility...

[s_bushido]

Salvage? It was the original point... the one you didn't even defend. You instead went to the "he came back and got killed". Which had nothing to do with the point.

Pure bullshit.

The orc that pulled arondir on the roof so they both roll down the house just stood up and walked off after they landed.

Perfect opportunity to kill him? Nah, my job is done as an extra so I just walk out of view.

[rhorle]

I never said "orcs were not armed" i said "in the precise moments where orcs target special characters they were not armed"

Which is what I am talking about. Stop trying to deflect into fallacies of your own invention. There were orcs that were armed when fighting, or attacking, main characters. It wasn't everyone that had no weapon or that didn't use their weapon.

[Kumorii]

Pure bullshit.

Argue for the sake of argue. He did walk out of view, you even recounted the events of it. You even just now said he did it to collect himself or even grab a weapon.

Couldn't take a moment to consider that maybe he was dazed/winded after hitting the ground? You know...since he was panting heavily? Or that he lost his weapon in the fall and had to go pick it up before attacking again?

So we agree, he walked out of view after landing.

you clearly think it doesn't matter or think that it's good tv... I don't think it was well made, they could do it way better by showing more clips between those 2.
Like having the orc land closer or have the camera further back and have it follow the orc around to the side (pointing towards Arondirs head) SHOWING the orc picking up a weapon as he walk around in a gloating or mocking manner. I consider things you claim I don't... I just think the series should actually SHOW it. Because it would be better if it did.

But I digress, I don't even think you are here to discuss the show as evident by your replies. So I'm gonna leave you to it.

[Specialka]

I see. Instead of just admitting you were wrong and getting over it, you instead admit that you were wrong but have to salvage it with this "they both fell off a roof, but it's bad because they didn't instantly recover and start fighting again!!!" bullshit. /wanking motion

Couldn't take a moment to consider that maybe he was dazed/winded after hitting the ground? You know...since he was panting heavily? Or that he lost his weapon in the fall and had to go pick it up before attacking again?

No. Of course not. Because "the show's bad, so I'm going to be as uncharitable as possible about every little detail to make it seem even worse."

It's downright pathetic.

On second thought, I was wrong: It's fucking pathetic.

Sure, let the opponent catch his breath after the fall so I can get a "fair" fight. Great writing there.

[s_bushido]

Sure, let the opponent catch his breath after the fall so I can get a "fair" fight. Great writing there.

I said the orc might have been dazed/winded. That HE was recovering from the fall before attacking again. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

And "writing" isn't the same thing as "fight choreography" either. Another fairly simple concept to understand.

But here we are once again, talking about 10 seconds of footage as if it means jack shit.

[Shadowferal]

This show is trully something else, By now i think Sauron is going to be an amazing character and actually look like a good guy.

Well, "Sauron for *insert high office* was trending for a while.

[Specialka]

I said the orc might have been dazed/winded. That HE was recovering from the fall before attacking again. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

And "writing" isn't the same thing as "fight choreography" either. Another fairly simple concept to understand.

But here we are once again, talking about 10 seconds of footage as if it means jack shit.

Recovering while on his two feets and showing nothing that he is recovering. Again, great writing.

The issue is that 10 sec * x = an episode full of non sense.

[InfiniteCharger]

Except those unfinished works did have the right sold. As earlier as 1976 the Saul Zaentz Company (who got the rights from UA and/or Estate) had limited matching rights to the any film adaptation of those unfinished works. It was either as the original deal or as a deal Christopher made. If it was Christopher those rights would have been made a year prior to the Similarillion being published.

The argument you are making though is silly because it means that Canon is only what Tolkien published in his books. Yet almost all fans accept his unpublished work as "official". Which means you are creating a standard that most people don't follow. It is also silly to say them being unfinished is irrelevant when your entire argument is that they can be excluded from "Tolkien being okay with adaptations" because of them being unfinished.

Again the Loophole had to do with a TV series and a few other things that were not explicitly covered by existing rights deals. Notice how the Similarillion is not one of those things Amazon has the rights to and is not part of the "loophole". Of course this has everything to do with you not liking Rings of Power or the way it uses Tolkien's world. If you didn't have a problem you wouldn't be arguing so hard about how it goes the wishes of the original creator.

You are repeating yourself and just making false statements. He did not sell the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales or his notes before he died because he did not publish them. And that is not what Amazon has the rights to for this series, which is the appendices, which Tolkien did not give the rights to as the basis for a TV series either. Which means he did not intend them to be used the way they are being used today.

So on that note, lets not just keep going in circles and end this particular line of discussion...

[Kumorii]

Well, "Sauron for *insert high office* was trending for a while.

Maybe the 'superfan' that said "When I saw Sauron I thought, 'he's so hot, maybe I can fix him'" (paraphrasing) was warning us all along

[Warning]

The fight scene in the village wasn't great. Throwing main characters around is always shit choreography and I don't know why professionals still do it. That said I still really enjoyed the episode and the ending was epic.

[hulkgor]

Star trek and wheel of time beg to differ.

I'm pretty sure Wheel of Time is successful. They also renewed for a third season (instead of just a second) after the first one had completed its run. Pretty sure they wouldn't double down on it if it wasn't a success.

Also, i liked it a lot, even with all its flaws.

So yea, pretty sure this is another one of those "i hate it, so it's bad" typical arguments.

[Gumble]

I'm pretty sure Wheel of Time is successful. They also renewed for a third season (instead of just a second) after the first one had completed its run. Pretty sure they wouldn't double down on it if it wasn't a success.

Also, i liked it a lot, even with all its flaws.

So yea, pretty sure this is another one of those "i hate it, so it's bad" typical arguments.

Pretty sure it was renewed for both a 2nd and 3rd season before the 1st season had come out and before any viewing figures had been shown. The show started off okish with very solid viewing figures, then took a nosedive around episode 5 and was so bad by the end of the first season that Amazon refused to tell anyone what the viewing figures were beyond its first week. The ratings agencies followed it and it lost alot of viewers every week until the last episode was so bad that even shills for the show were doubtful they'd watch the 2nd season (Hi Daniel Greene)

And yes, Amazon would absolutely waste a ton of money on a show that wasn't very good and not alot of people watch (See ROP).

The arguments you find against WoT are actually...... "I was excited, I was worried, I was dreading it, I watched it, its bad, I hate it". Much like ROP, nearly every fan of WoT was excited to see a show being made, then they weren't. Wonder why

[InfiniteCharger]

It's entirely possible that woke-ifying things does kill the versions of stuff people previously really liked, though, but it's also nearly impossible to tell if it's a chicken or the egg, or if bad writing and having a care about those things is completely unlinked, or what the impact of directives from higher-ups has on the quality of the show, etc.

It is about leftist academics creating these concepts especially in the 70s and onwards where they begin to critique any and all forms of culture and media through various lenses. And unfortunately many corporations have begun hiring people who have come from these Universities and colleges that teach these things and or certain executives at these corporations push these agendas and their associated talking points. It is a big issue in academia that has influenced many of these media companies but for the most part in the most superficial way. But that is what "woke" is referring to. It does not mean not liking diversity as opposed to diversity done properly because Tolkien had diversity in Middle Earth and so do many other stories, but these people criticize it as being 'bad'. Unfortunately many of these academics are prescribing a very naive and unrealistic narrative about these topics which results in a shallow understanding of the concept and not anything truly authentic. As a result, in a show like this, you get the one black elf being treated to slurs by "southerners" as if the show is trying to show how "racism" also exists in Middle Earth by tying it to the American south. That is just stupid. But according to them that is promoting understanding. Understanding of what? Or this whole idea of Orcs being brothers and sisters as if they are just misunderstood beings. That is just absurd..

And the biggest problem is that it replaces creativity and creative freedom with checklists and guidelines which of course corporations love to put on power point slides and promotional material because it makes them look good (especially to the leftists). Which is how you get often very lackluster results.

Just a sample of some of this leftist academic discourse:

If multicultural literature can be generally defined as that which ‘represents voices typically omitted from the traditional canon (Glazier & Seo, 2005, p. 688), what is cosmopolitan literature? K. Anthony Appiah suggests that ‘cosmopolitan reading practices are undergirded’ by the desire to learn ‘mutual toleration’ and ‘sympathy and concern’ for others, and that through them we can ‘identify points of agreement’ (Appiah, 2001, p. 203). This offers some useful points of reference as reading and writing, like teaching and learning, are mutually dependent. Further, beginning with cosmopolitan reading is particularly appropriate for this chapter because it is concerned with what the reader may learn from their encounter with writing. ‘Mutual toleration’ is a two-way concept which acknowledges the agency of majority and minority cultures; ‘sympathy and concern’ suggests not simply accepting the existence of diversity, but interest in the experiences of others; and ‘points of agreement’ emphasizes the importance of finding common ground, or universals. Cosmopolitan literature, then, might be taken as that which fosters mutual understanding and respect through active engagement with models of diversity, which simultaneously recognise similarity and difference. Exploration of recent thought concerning cosmopolitanism in a globalised society reveals a number of pointers as to specific themes or ideas that connect fantasy literature and cosmopolitanism. Ulrich Beck’s sociological approach to cosmopolitanism is concerned with the future of world society and culture and not with the historical structures and relationships of nation-states, as Fine observes (Fine, 2007). A ‘world-risk society’ is one faced with threats that cannot be managed successfully by individual nations and must be responded to on a much large scale, such as global warming. Beck argues that in the face of such global challenges, ‘the past looses its power to determine the present. Instead, the future – something non-existent, constructed or fictitious – takes its place as the cause of present experience and action’ (Beck, 2000, p.137). Large-scale risk is so common as to be a defining feature of fantasy fiction, as responses to it often require the mobilization of historically disparate or even hostile groups, as this chapter discusses in detail below.

https://www.academia.edu/1263662/Div..._the_Classroom

And how it is typically applied to Tolkien:

This is from the first page of Tolkien’s The Fellowship of the Ring. It is the first time he uses the word “race” in the book (though he did use it in The Hobbit as well). Considering Tolkien’s place as the godfather of the fantasy genre, it’s unsurprising that his conception of the “races” of Middle Earth have become more-or-less standard across the fantasy genre.

But Tolkien’s conception of “race” is a huge problem. His ideas have been bred into the core of the fantasy genre—not just literature, but films and games too. Contemporary authors have had to work hard to free the genre from this original sin.

The core of the problem is that Tolkien conflates race, culture, and ability. Hobbits, he says, are a race, and based upon a combination their hereditary traits and cultural practices, are better at being stealthy than other races.

Tolkien does this throughout his novels, outlining the “racial” characteristics of men, of dwarves, of elves, of orcs, and those few of mixed ancestry (like Aragorn or the Uruk-Hai). As Helen Young, author of Race and Popular Fantasy Literature put it in a recent interview with the Pacific Standard: "In Middle Earth, unlike reality, race is objectively real rather than socially constructed.".

https://www.publicmedievalist.com/race-fantasy-genre/

Infracted for derailing.

[Syegfryed]

Which is what I am talking about. Stop trying to deflect into fallacies of your own invention. There were orcs that were armed when fighting, or attacking, main characters. It wasn't everyone that had no weapon or that didn't use their weapon.

That is not an "invention", just stop lying m8.

the big orc who trashed Arondir around by example, completely unarmed, 100% bullshit

You have to grasp at straws and split hairs, look how desperate your defense is "some of the one who attacked the protagonists, were armed, so you are wrong hahaha me win", yet you don't realize how this does not erase the fact that some orcs were not armed, or purposely didn't finish off the protagonists, because plot reasons, again, case in point with the big orc and Arondir.

[s_bushido]

I'm pretty sure Wheel of Time is successful.

And as far as Star Trek goes: Discovery's getting a 5th season, Strange New Worlds a 2nd, Lower Decks a 4th, Picard a 3rd. The idea that studios would do shit like that just to keep up appearances is laughable...

[Shadowferal]

As long as wot gets released during the time frame when little else is available it'll get views and be a "success" by default.

[Myradin]

And as far as Star Trek goes: Discovery's getting a 5th season, Strange New Worlds a 2nd, Lower Decks a 4th, Picard a 3rd. The idea that studios would do shit like that just to keep up appearances is laughable...

Strange New Worlds was well received.
Lower Decks has been well received.
Discovery has...at least gotten better each season. It feels like they're trying to improve.
Picard s2 and 3 were shot at the same time, with 3 being announced as the end. Its effectively cancelled just framing it otherwise.

Hardcore fans will watch somehing even if its bad, hoping eventually it'll be good. Its why studios farm these IP's in the first place. Even if its crap it'll still do decently well due to sheer momentum.

[rhorle]

You are repeating yourself and just making false statements. He did not sell the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales or his notes before he died because he did not publish them.

I am not making any false statements. I said he either sold the rights before he died or those rights were sold in 1976 to the SZC before publication of the Silmarillion by his son Christopher. Which is true as the SZC had limited matching rights to the non-book works of Tolkien. I never said that is what Amazon has the rights to that stuff. Again you invent an argument rather then understanding what is being said to you.

The fact still remains that Tolkien never considered his work as final even after being published. It is silly to make a distinction between published and not published because it wasn't something that existed to him given what we know.

- - - Updated - - -

That is not an "invention", just stop lying m8. the big orc who trashed Arondir around by example, completely unarmed, 100% bullshit

You said every orc. I said not every orc because some were armed. The only one grasping at straws here is yourself who just admitted I was right but you still have to argue. Lmao. Of course it doesn't erase the fact that some were not armed because that isn't what you, or I, claimed.