1. #6101
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Star trek and wheel of time beg to differ.
    I'm pretty sure Wheel of Time is successful. They also renewed for a third season (instead of just a second) after the first one had completed its run. Pretty sure they wouldn't double down on it if it wasn't a success.

    Also, i liked it a lot, even with all its flaws.

    So yea, pretty sure this is another one of those "i hate it, so it's bad" typical arguments.

  2. #6102
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    I'm pretty sure Wheel of Time is successful. They also renewed for a third season (instead of just a second) after the first one had completed its run. Pretty sure they wouldn't double down on it if it wasn't a success.

    Also, i liked it a lot, even with all its flaws.

    So yea, pretty sure this is another one of those "i hate it, so it's bad" typical arguments.
    Pretty sure it was renewed for both a 2nd and 3rd season before the 1st season had come out and before any viewing figures had been shown. The show started off okish with very solid viewing figures, then took a nosedive around episode 5 and was so bad by the end of the first season that Amazon refused to tell anyone what the viewing figures were beyond its first week. The ratings agencies followed it and it lost alot of viewers every week until the last episode was so bad that even shills for the show were doubtful they'd watch the 2nd season (Hi Daniel Greene)

    And yes, Amazon would absolutely waste a ton of money on a show that wasn't very good and not alot of people watch (See ROP).

    The arguments you find against WoT are actually...... "I was excited, I was worried, I was dreading it, I watched it, its bad, I hate it". Much like ROP, nearly every fan of WoT was excited to see a show being made, then they weren't. Wonder why

  3. #6103
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    It's entirely possible that woke-ifying things does kill the versions of stuff people previously really liked, though, but it's also nearly impossible to tell if it's a chicken or the egg, or if bad writing and having a care about those things is completely unlinked, or what the impact of directives from higher-ups has on the quality of the show, etc.
    It is about leftist academics creating these concepts especially in the 70s and onwards where they begin to critique any and all forms of culture and media through various lenses. And unfortunately many corporations have begun hiring people who have come from these Universities and colleges that teach these things and or certain executives at these corporations push these agendas and their associated talking points. It is a big issue in academia that has influenced many of these media companies but for the most part in the most superficial way. But that is what "woke" is referring to. It does not mean not liking diversity as opposed to diversity done properly because Tolkien had diversity in Middle Earth and so do many other stories, but these people criticize it as being 'bad'. Unfortunately many of these academics are prescribing a very naive and unrealistic narrative about these topics which results in a shallow understanding of the concept and not anything truly authentic. As a result, in a show like this, you get the one black elf being treated to slurs by "southerners" as if the show is trying to show how "racism" also exists in Middle Earth by tying it to the American south. That is just stupid. But according to them that is promoting understanding. Understanding of what? Or this whole idea of Orcs being brothers and sisters as if they are just misunderstood beings. That is just absurd..

    And the biggest problem is that it replaces creativity and creative freedom with checklists and guidelines which of course corporations love to put on power point slides and promotional material because it makes them look good (especially to the leftists). Which is how you get often very lackluster results.

    Just a sample of some of this leftist academic discourse:
    If multicultural literature can be generally defined as that which ‘represents voices typically omitted from the traditional canon (Glazier & Seo, 2005, p. 688), what is cosmopolitan literature? K. Anthony Appiah suggests that ‘cosmopolitan reading practices are undergirded’ by the desire to learn ‘mutual toleration’ and ‘sympathy and concern’ for others, and that through them we can ‘identify points of agreement’ (Appiah, 2001, p. 203). This offers some useful points of reference as reading and writing, like teaching and learning, are mutually dependent. Further, beginning with cosmopolitan reading is particularly appropriate for this chapter because it is concerned with what the reader may learn from their encounter with writing. ‘Mutual toleration’ is a two-way concept which acknowledges the agency of majority and minority cultures; ‘sympathy and concern’ suggests not simply accepting the existence of diversity, but interest in the experiences of others; and ‘points of agreement’ emphasizes the importance of finding common ground, or universals. Cosmopolitan literature, then, might be taken as that which fosters mutual understanding and respect through active engagement with models of diversity, which simultaneously recognise similarity and difference. Exploration of recent thought concerning cosmopolitanism in a globalised society reveals a number of pointers as to specific themes or ideas that connect fantasy literature and cosmopolitanism. Ulrich Beck’s sociological approach to cosmopolitanism is concerned with the future of world society and culture and not with the historical structures and relationships of nation-states, as Fine observes (Fine, 2007). A ‘world-risk society’ is one faced with threats that cannot be managed successfully by individual nations and must be responded to on a much large scale, such as global warming. Beck argues that in the face of such global challenges, ‘the past looses its power to determine the present. Instead, the future – something non-existent, constructed or fictitious – takes its place as the cause of present experience and action’ (Beck, 2000, p.137). Large-scale risk is so common as to be a defining feature of fantasy fiction, as responses to it often require the mobilization of historically disparate or even hostile groups, as this chapter discusses in detail below.
    https://www.academia.edu/1263662/Div..._the_Classroom

    And how it is typically applied to Tolkien:
    This is from the first page of Tolkien’s The Fellowship of the Ring. It is the first time he uses the word “race” in the book (though he did use it in The Hobbit as well). Considering Tolkien’s place as the godfather of the fantasy genre, it’s unsurprising that his conception of the “races” of Middle Earth have become more-or-less standard across the fantasy genre.

    But Tolkien’s conception of “race” is a huge problem. His ideas have been bred into the core of the fantasy genre—not just literature, but films and games too. Contemporary authors have had to work hard to free the genre from this original sin.

    The core of the problem is that Tolkien conflates race, culture, and ability. Hobbits, he says, are a race, and based upon a combination their hereditary traits and cultural practices, are better at being stealthy than other races.

    Tolkien does this throughout his novels, outlining the “racial” characteristics of men, of dwarves, of elves, of orcs, and those few of mixed ancestry (like Aragorn or the Uruk-Hai). As Helen Young, author of Race and Popular Fantasy Literature put it in a recent interview with the Pacific Standard: "In Middle Earth, unlike reality, race is objectively real rather than socially constructed.".
    https://www.publicmedievalist.com/race-fantasy-genre/

    Infracted for derailing.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2022-10-03 at 08:43 PM.

  4. #6104
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which is what I am talking about. Stop trying to deflect into fallacies of your own invention. There were orcs that were armed when fighting, or attacking, main characters. It wasn't everyone that had no weapon or that didn't use their weapon.
    That is not an "invention", just stop lying m8.

    the big orc who trashed Arondir around by example, completely unarmed, 100% bullshit

    You have to grasp at straws and split hairs, look how desperate your defense is "some of the one who attacked the protagonists, were armed, so you are wrong hahaha me win", yet you don't realize how this does not erase the fact that some orcs were not armed, or purposely didn't finish off the protagonists, because plot reasons, again, case in point with the big orc and Arondir.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2022-10-03 at 01:31 PM.

  5. #6105
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    I'm pretty sure Wheel of Time is successful.
    And as far as Star Trek goes: Discovery's getting a 5th season, Strange New Worlds a 2nd, Lower Decks a 4th, Picard a 3rd. The idea that studios would do shit like that just to keep up appearances is laughable...

  6. #6106
    As long as wot gets released during the time frame when little else is available it'll get views and be a "success" by default.

  7. #6107
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    And as far as Star Trek goes: Discovery's getting a 5th season, Strange New Worlds a 2nd, Lower Decks a 4th, Picard a 3rd. The idea that studios would do shit like that just to keep up appearances is laughable...
    Strange New Worlds was well received.
    Lower Decks has been well received.
    Discovery has...at least gotten better each season. It feels like they're trying to improve.
    Picard s2 and 3 were shot at the same time, with 3 being announced as the end. Its effectively cancelled just framing it otherwise.

    Hardcore fans will watch somehing even if its bad, hoping eventually it'll be good. Its why studios farm these IP's in the first place. Even if its crap it'll still do decently well due to sheer momentum.

  8. #6108
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    You are repeating yourself and just making false statements. He did not sell the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales or his notes before he died because he did not publish them.
    I am not making any false statements. I said he either sold the rights before he died or those rights were sold in 1976 to the SZC before publication of the Silmarillion by his son Christopher. Which is true as the SZC had limited matching rights to the non-book works of Tolkien. I never said that is what Amazon has the rights to that stuff. Again you invent an argument rather then understanding what is being said to you.

    The fact still remains that Tolkien never considered his work as final even after being published. It is silly to make a distinction between published and not published because it wasn't something that existed to him given what we know.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    That is not an "invention", just stop lying m8. the big orc who trashed Arondir around by example, completely unarmed, 100% bullshit
    You said every orc. I said not every orc because some were armed. The only one grasping at straws here is yourself who just admitted I was right but you still have to argue. Lmao. Of course it doesn't erase the fact that some were not armed because that isn't what you, or I, claimed.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  9. #6109


    So I use Tolkien's words to prove you wrong but somehow I'm ignoring everything Tolkien says? Lmao. Pure projection. The Elves do not fit your view of them yet you choose to go with your head canon over that of the author. I have never denied that Rings of Power changes his works. Some things however change little or nothing at all when you actually get into depths of his work. Stop inventing arguments simply because you weren't correct about one aspect of Tolkien's world.
    You are only kidding yourself. You know the portrayal of elves is bad - these aren’t Tolkien elves - they’ve taken huge liberties and presented the elves in a light that fits their own narrative and world view, not Tolkien’s.

    Theoretically you could argue elves can behave like that. They can be as twisted as evil humans if they choose. But that you would focus on these unlikely presentations is mis representation.

    Then, there is you, you take the exception to make the rule when it isn’t.

    These certainly are not reflective of the description of elves in Tolkien’s work nor Peter Jackson’s adaptations’ characterisation.

    They come offf cheap, lazy and lesser and I suspect it is for messaging reasons.

  10. #6110
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Theoretically you could argue elves can behave like that. They can be as twisted as evil humans if they choose. But that you would focus on these unlikely presentations is mis representation. Then, there is you, you take the exception to make the rule when it isn’t.
    Peter Jackson trumps JRR Tolkien now? Lol. It is crazy how you continue to say the author is the exception and you continue to go with your own head canon because you like it better. It is fine if you want to do that but don't try to pass your own view off as the real thing.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #6111
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    You are only kidding yourself. You know the portrayal of elves is bad - these aren’t Tolkien elves - they’ve taken huge liberties and presented the elves in a light that fits their own narrative and world view, not Tolkien’s.
    They do come across as more human than what I'd expect elves to be.

  12. #6112
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    I see. Instead of just admitting you were wrong and getting over it, you instead admit that you were wrong but have to salvage it with this "they both fell off a roof, but it's bad because they didn't instantly recover and start fighting again!!!" bullshit. /wanking motion

    Couldn't take a moment to consider that maybe he was dazed/winded after hitting the ground? You know...since he was panting heavily? Or that he lost his weapon in the fall and had to go pick it up before attacking again?

    No. Of course not. Because "the show's bad, so I'm going to be as uncharitable as possible about every little detail to make it seem even worse."

    It's downright pathetic.

    On second thought, I was wrong: It's fucking pathetic.
    His whole point was about the orc not taking opportunity, while you split hairs about the technicality of who fell of the roof and who didn't.

    You didn't address his point, you outright ignored it, then act surprised when he stayed on point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    They do come across as more human than what I'd expect elves to be.
    I think the only one that really feels like an Elf in the show is Elrond. They haven't been very convincing with the dialogue for the other Elves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Also, i liked it a lot, even with all its flaws.
    It had its moments, but I wouldn't say I liked it. I couldn't lower my standards low enough to consider it likeable. The climax was really awkward and didn't feel grand at all, and it felt like the entire season was all build up with no payoff.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-03 at 03:58 PM.

  13. #6113
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    And as far as Star Trek goes: Discovery's getting a 5th season, Strange New Worlds a 2nd, Lower Decks a 4th, Picard a 3rd. The idea that studios would do shit like that just to keep up appearances is laughable...
    It just goes to show you dont have any taste or cant see enjoyment in anything, if shows get renewed there is more than enough ppl to make it worthwhile to continue to make shows. If shows get renewed then they are more than good enough.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  14. #6114
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It just goes to show you dont have any taste or cant see enjoyment in anything, if shows get renewed there is more than enough ppl to make it worthwhile to continue to make shows. If shows get renewed then they are more than good enough.
    Jersey Shore, still running strong.

    No account for taste, you're a perfect example of that.

  15. #6115
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    You are only kidding yourself. You know the portrayal of elves is bad - these aren’t Tolkien elves - they’ve taken huge liberties and presented the elves in a light that fits their own narrative and world view, not Tolkien’s.

    Theoretically you could argue elves can behave like that. They can be as twisted as evil humans if they choose. But that you would focus on these unlikely presentations is mis representation.

    Then, there is you, you take the exception to make the rule when it isn’t.

    These certainly are not reflective of the description of elves in Tolkien’s work nor Peter Jackson’s adaptations’ characterisation.

    They come offf cheap, lazy and lesser and I suspect it is for messaging reasons.
    Elves in LOTR are not some god species that is far beyond all other races, they have some good benefits and some elves are exceptional but most are not much better than men, you are trying to pass them off as something else when thats not backed up by how tolkien describes elves in the first place. They die just as easily as any race.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Jersey Shore, still running strong.

    No account for taste, you're a perfect example of that.
    If it entertains a vast majority of ppl then its doing its job, noone has any right to claim something is bad if a show still gets continued for many years, all ppl want these days is to complain about everything because they are not happy in life, if you cant be happy something is being successful it says something about your character rather than what you are complaining about.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  16. #6116
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Jersey Shore, still running strong. No account for taste, you're a perfect example of that.
    Your argument is really that people have to like the same thing as you or its bad? Not to mention Jersey Shore did go off the air in 2012. A spinoff/new series premiered in 2018. Taste is subjective. Reality Shows have been insanely popular like Survivor and Big Brother regardless of your disdain.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #6117
    Herald of the Titans Sluvs's Avatar
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    last episode was cool.

    The problem with the show so far is that is just too much setup. Too slow.

    episode 4 & 5 could have been just one episode.The fact that they are dragging the worldbuilding on is hurting the show, it is making things hard to care about.

    that being said, I am enjoying the show. But more things need to happen, this battle was supposed to happen on ep 5, if not sooner.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  18. #6118
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    I dived deep into the Rings of Power fanbase and realised there is a huge ship demand for Galadriel x Halbrand, even if Halbrand turns out to be Sauron. xD

    Like you have the anti Rings of Power fanbase, the 'Its all shit nothing is good about it and if you like it you are wrong' and then you have the 'this is the best show everone who hates it is an 'ist''.... then deeper than that you have the 'Galadriel x Halbrand, I don;t care if he is Sauron'...

    Fanbases be fucked up xD
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

    Unsubbed since January 2021, now a Warcraft fan from a distance

  19. #6119
    If he’s Sauron, I ship him and Galadriel. If he’s not then I don’t

  20. #6120
    C'mon guys, we all know Halbrand is secretly Celeborn. This is 2nd Age before he turns into an Elf, sheesh.

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