1. #6141
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So reading a script isn't "getting involved"? You said he wasn't involved with anything after he sold the rights. That wasn't true. Strange how you keep moving the goal posts. Also strange how you ignore Simon Tolkien consulting on Rings of Power which indicates that Christopher and JRR likely would have likely consulted if they were alive. Remember Christopher was alive to "authorize" the sale of rights to Amazon.
    No, I would not say he got involved if he merely read a script and did nothing else ablut it but give his thoughts on the matter.

    He could be doing the same with Rings of Power if he were alive today, and I wouldn't consider that involving himself on the production of the show.

    Again, you're literally just arguing for the sake of it.

    Do you think he would have written the screenplay for Rings of Power himself of he were alive today?

    Also not sure why you even bring up Simon Tolkien since Christopher Tolkien practically disowned him for the very reason of wanting to collaborate/consult with film companies. They only reconciled in Christopher's last few years. Simon Tolkien has even gone on record saying he thinks JRR Tolkien wouldn't have liked the Peter Jackson films. Really bad example here.

    The way it happened was the Amazon deal happened in 2017. Christopher Tolkien was still head of the Tolkien Estate at the time, and rumors say that the Tolkien estate approached Amazon for the deal. When the deal happened, Christopher Tolkien resigned from the estate around the same time the deal was being brokered (He resigned in august, Rings of Power announced Nov). The estate is now run by other family members, including Simon Tolkien who was supportive of collaborating with film productions. And guess what, Amazon's RoP has the full support of the Estate and Simon Tolkien is a major consultant on the project. Much of this publicly revealed after Christopher Tolkien's death, mind you.

    From what it looks like, Christopher Tolkien is literally the King of Numenor in this situation.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-01 at 05:04 PM.

  2. #6142
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Amazon purchased the rights for spinoffs of the main work. So Amazon can have another production company use those rights if they don't want to create something in-house. It is why Warner Brothers continually shops derivatives of the film rights and for example partnered with a Japanese company to create the upcoming War of the Rohirrim anime. It is essentially the same thing as sub-leasing an apartment.
    Says who? The spinoffs came with the original option that was floated by the rights holder, which is the Tolkien estate. And because they are the ones who floated this idea to begin with, then it likely included stipulations on whether those rights could be sold by Amazon to another party. Sub contracting to another studio to actually produce a spinoff series doesn't imply that Amazon has sold the rights, as Amazon the company has many departments, and they aren't primarily an entertainment company. So it isn't sub leasing as opposed to sub contracting to another studio to actually produce the final product, which still is owned by Amazon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    No, I would not say he got involved if he merely read a script and did nothing else ablut it but give his thoughts on the matter.

    He could be doing the same with Rings of Power if he were alive today, and I wouldn't consider that involving himself on the production of the show.

    Again, you're literally just arguing for the sake of it.

    Do you think he would have written the screenplay for Rings of Power himself of he were alive today?

    Also not sure why you even bring up Simon Tolkien since Christopher Tolkien practically disowned him for the very reason of wanting to collaborate/consult with film companies. They only reconciled in Christopher's last few years. Simon Tolkien has even gone on record saying he thinks JRR Tolkien wouldn't have liked the Peter Jackson films. Really bad example here.
    If Tolkien were alive today the rights for a multi season television series based on the appendices would never have been floated to begin. Because it is literally giving a studio free reign to make up stories to fill time for hours of television. And if he was alive today, he may have finished the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales or perhaps other work to fill in the story of the second age as something for studios to potentially adapt separate from the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings books.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-10-01 at 04:55 PM.

  3. #6143
    You guys arguing back and forth for 100 pages about what is/isn’t Tolkien or what he would/wouldn’t approve of is just hilarious at this point. It’s like during Covid when everyone online was suddenly an expert in virology. It’s good for a laugh atleast.
    Last edited by SuperKarateDeathCar; 2022-10-01 at 05:19 PM.

  4. #6144
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Again, you're literally just arguing for the sake of it. Do you think he would have written the screenplay for Rings of Power himself of he were alive today?
    So I'm arguing just to argue yet you keep asking me questions. Lmao. It is called a discussion. He hasn't written a screenplay for any adaptation when he was alive. Why would that change for rings of power, and what relevance does it have to anything discussed? You keep moving the goal posts into different hypothetical questions when your last ones don't go the way you wanted.

    So Simon tolkien isn't relevant to a tolkien consulting on screenplays? Simon had a crisis over the legacy LotR's "forced" and his own identity and it crested with the popularity of the films. Ryod likely would have caused a bigger kerfuffle since he appeared on screen in both book adaptations. He is brought up because he is an example of a Tolkien consulting. Do you honestly think Christopher, who sold the rights to Amazon, wouldn't have consulted in some form? Or that JRR wouldn't have as well?

    The former criminal barrister, now himself a successful novelist, said he began to lose “sight” of his identity and became “suffocated” by being known as “JRR Tolkien's grandson”. The problems also provoked an “incredibly, dreadfully painful” feud with his father, Christopher, with the falling out becoming so bad, the pair didn’t speak for “a while”. http://web.archive.org/web/202201061...gs-trauma.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Says who?
    The rights Amazon purchased. Rights are sub-leased all the time. It is how things get made and why Warner Brothers can continue to find partners for things as long as it doesn't violate their original rights agreement. If a right-holder sub-contracts to another entity that is for all intents and purposes selling rights. Because that new entity has paid money, or some other exchange, for the right to use stuff themselves. You are just hemming and hawing over the semantics of "sold" here.
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  5. #6145
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So I'm arguing just to argue yet you keep asking me questions. Lmao. It is called a discussion. He hasn't written a screenplay for any adaptation when he was alive. Why would that change for rings of power, and what relevance does it have to anything discussed?
    Because the context of my entire argument was in reply to someone who said 'If Tolkien were alive today he would write the screenplay for Rings of Power', which you jumped into by thinking my reply somehow meant he was against any and all film adaptations. You outright ignored the context about refuting the idea that Tolkien would have written a screenplay for a series like Rings of Power.

    Like I say again, if you don't think he would involve himself in a screenplay or adaptation because he never did in life, then that is and was my only point which you now have agreed with and we literally have nothing to argue about because there was nothing worth arguing to begin with.

    *Heavy sigh*
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-01 at 05:27 PM.

  6. #6146
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    If Tolkien were alive today the rights for a multi season television series based on the appendices would never have been floated to begin. Because it is literally giving a studio free reign to make up stories to fill time for hours of television.
    We know that isn't true as I early pointed out. Because even an adaptation that he didn't like the script to was not killed by him because he liked the pictorial aspect. He also stated when talking about that same adaptation that it is the core or heart that needs to adhered to and not "no changes". He even apologized for coming across as overly harsh in response to some changes made.

    The canons of narrative art in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.

    ...He has cut the parts of the story upon which its characteristic and peculiar tone principally depends, showing a preference for fights; and he has made no serious attempt to represent the heart of the tale adequately... https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_210
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle...st_J._Ackerman
    From the Wikipedia article linked to above:
    Nevertheless, Tolkien did not wish to kill the project, saying "I think [it] promised well on the pictorial side."[14]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because the context of my entire argument was in reply to someone who said 'If Tolkien were alive today he would write the screenplay for Rings of Power', which you jumped into by thinking my reply somehow meant he was against any and all film adaptations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Just look up his interviews and the comments his son has made in retrospect. Tolkien was adamant that his work was unadaptable as a movie. And considering he is dead, that is an opinion that dies with him.
    Nope. You are trying to re-write history of your comments when they are there for everyone to see. You made the argument that he didn't want his work turned into a movie and that he considered it unadaptable. Hence why our discussion was about what he thought of adaptations. I've taken nothing out of context and you continually deflect into insults when you run out of a civil response.

    Like I say again, if you don't think he would involve himself in a screenplay or adaptation because he never did in life, then that is and was my only point which you now have agreed with and we literally have nothing to argue about because there was nothing worth arguing to begin with.
    I've shown to you many times where he did involve himself while alive. I'm not sure why you are still inventing reasons after all this time. Why keep asking questions and discussing if you just want to invent an argument?
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  7. #6147
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Sigh, you can read a quote, but lack understanding - or for understanding to come to the simple. Elves are a lot of things, but the way Rings of power writes and shows them and Galadariel does not reflect the dignity, prestige, wisdom and character attributed to them.

    Jus because Tolkien points out the reason behind them staying in Middle Earth, doesn't mean we should ignore their racial character in general, and alter it entirely, nor does it mean e should forget all the positive things about them that absolutely make them who they are and ought to be CLEARLY evident.

    They are not just pretty humans with less defects.
    Elves are just pretty humans with a few benefits, nothing more and even tolkien didnt say they were anything more than that, only a few elves are considered exceptional with other powers, the rest are normal soldiers or citizens that can die pretty easily.
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  8. #6148
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I've shown to you many times where he did involve himself while alive. I'm not sure why you are still inventing reasons after all this time. Why keep asking questions and discussing if you just want to invent an argument?
    Reading the Boorman script didn't mean he was involving himself in its production. At that time he already sold the rights and wouldn't have been any position to change it regardless.

    Like, what exactly are you trying to prove? Do you actually think JRR Tolkien would have directly supported Rings of Power the same way Simon Tolkien has? Cuz I flat out disagree if so. JRR Tolkien was much more conservative with his work, while Simon is much more liberal with the handling of the franchise.

  9. #6149
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We know that isn't true as I early pointed out. Because even an adaptation that he didn't like the script to was not killed by him because he liked the pictorial aspect. He also stated when talking about that same adaptation that it is the core or heart that needs to adhered to and not "no changes". He even apologized for coming across as overly harsh in response to some changes made.
    We know that the appendices were not a complete story and only included to provide some backstory and he had not published his notes or unfinished works like the Silmarillion before he died. Therefore, it is not true that he intended for the appendices, by themselves, to be used as the basis for some rights to be given to a studio to make a story of the second age. Christopher Tolkien only published those basically to fill out the information on the second and first ages based on what his father had started. The fact that he never published them before he died means that they weren't ready for public consumption and that included any kind of film or television treatment. Of course he wanted his story for the age of trees, first age and second age to be the definitive version of events and not events made up by third parties. If anything he would have wanted a proper story based on the entire legendarium to be the story of the 2nd age. And if he was alive I would assume he would have finished that story and those rights would be the only rights given for any kind of adaptation, not just the appendices.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-10-01 at 06:18 PM.

  10. #6150
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Reading the Boorman script didn't mean he was involving himself in its production. At that time he already sold the rights and wouldn't have been any position to change it regardless.
    So we are backing to him having to be alive rather then at all. It is strange how you keep moving the goal posts depending on what response you need to disqualify at the time. You were using the context of your entire argument and not just "since he sold the rights". He may have been conservative with his work but he wasn't against adaptations as he worked several times to do just that. He was even working with UA to produce something before UA bought the rights. So the idea that he wouldn't be involved is silly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Therefore, it is not true that he intended for the appendices, by themselves, to be used as the basis for some rights to be given to a studio to make a story of the second age.
    He sold the rights to his work which means it doesn't matter if stuff was finished or not. His intent was to give away the rights. We even know that he wanted to rewrite his books several times so nothing was ever "finished" in his eyes. So it is silly to think that he would hold some work differently then others just because it wasn't a book or published. He didn't hold published as some special status.
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  11. #6151
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So we are backing to him having to be alive rather then at all. It is strange how you keep moving the goal posts depending on what response you need to disqualify at the time.
    Nope, I was always clear about the context of my response. You weren't, which meant I had to keep clarifying because I hadn't realized you weren't even replying within the context to begin with.

    I mean what are you really arguing about? Do you think Tolkien would write a screenplay for Rings of Power? No, you don't. Neither do I. We're on the same page, so whatever you think needs yo be argued further is pointless, because I'm not making claims beyond anything you're arguing.

    Did I say he was against other people adapting Rings of Power? No, I did not. I was clear from the beginning to refute the idea that he would involve himself in writing the screenplay for it. And we're both clear that he never did this for any adaptation in his lifetime to begin with.

    Again, you are arguing points I never made. You just can't fucking read what I've been telling you.

    He was even working with UA to produce something before UA bought the rights. So the idea that he wouldn't be involved is silly.
    Yes and after the experiences he deemed the film to be unfilmable in live action, which is why he eventually sold all rights altogether (with money also being a motivating factor)

    The context had ALWAYS been if he were alive today, and that's how I framed my responses tp the other poster. And I told you straight up you were taking my responses out of context to imply Tolkien would be supportive of adaptations because he did so at one point in his life, which was never my argument. I never implied that it didn't happen, I talked about speculation of how Tolkien would act if he were alive today.

    Again, what are you arguing here? Comments you took out of context that were never aimed at you in the first place.

    Stop trolling, dude.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-01 at 07:17 PM.

  12. #6152
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    He definitely would hold some woks differently, especially if it was garbage work or something done with just appendix filled with fanfiction, why? because Tolkien is not a dumbass.

    This guy, grasping at straws for what, literally arguing for the sake of argue

  13. #6153
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Did I say he was against other people adapting Rings of Power? No, I did not. I was clear from the beginning to refute the idea that he would involve himself in writing the screenplay for it. And we're both clear that he never did this for any adaptation in his lifetime to begin with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    To clarify, he wouldn't have supported an adaptation that was wildly different from his own work.
    So which is it? You did or didn't say something you clearly said. You've had no argument based on fact from the begining and have kept moving the goal post to in a revisionist attempt to remain correct. I've countered it at every turn which is why you've now turned to insulting me rather then providing something to counter.

    Yes and after the experiences he deemed the film to be unfilmable in live action, which is why he eventually sold all rights altogether (with money also being a motivating factor)
    He was working with UA which clearly meant he felt it could be adapted in some fashion. The deal fell through like the other before it and UA decided to buy the rights rather then let another company try. If he were alive today you wouldn't know how he would act because you are not him. Nothing has given a definitive answer either way on what he would do. I've taken nothing out of context but to say that you have no idea what he would do and provided evidence to counter the things you said would indicate what he would do.
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  14. #6154
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    He definitely would hold some woks differently, especially if it was garbage work or something done with just appendix filled with fanfiction, why? because Tolkien is not a dumbass.

    This guy, grasping at straws for what, literally arguing for the sake of argue
    Tolkiens work itself has tons of flaws to poor writing and bad stories and plot holes, your clearly being ignorant and holding tolkiens work to a standard that is not possible to attain, his work was average at best, the movies are what actually made the series popular and not the actual books themselves.
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  15. #6155
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So which is it? You did or didn't say something you clearly said. You've had no argument based on fact from the begining and have kept moving the goal post to in a revisionist attempt to remain correct. I've countered it at every turn which is why you've now turned to insulting me rather then providing something to counter.
    By support I mean actively take part in working on such a project. I don't mean passive support like reading a screenplay and saying 'Nice'. Remember, the context is about whether Tolkien would involve himself in writing Amazon's Rings of Power story that would be adaptable to film, and I am clear to say he would have had no interest in doing so after he sold the rights. The Appendices were published post-humously as well.

    You're still digging up things to argue that are pointless to argue. You didn't understand the context, therefore you assumed 'not support' meant 'actively opposed any adaptations'. I clarified this already, so you're digging old quotes out of context that you remain adamantly ignorant to any clarifications I made just to perpetuate an argument.

    He was working with UA which clearly meant he felt it could be adapted in some fashion. The deal fell through like the other before it and UA decided to buy the rights rather then let another company try. If he were alive today you wouldn't know how he would act because you are not him. Nothing has given a definitive answer either way on what he would do. I've taken nothing out of context but to say that you have no idea what he would do and provided evidence to counter the things you said would indicate what he would do.
    It's through his experiences here that he ended up concluding that LOTR was unfilmable in live action, and chose not to take part in any future productions. I have no intention making any statements on whether he felt it was adaptable by other people, only that he wouldn't have taken any active role in supporting it like writing a Rings of Power screenplay, which had been the context of the discussion. I mean by the fact he sold the rights shows that he would be aware other adaptations would be made, and whether he liked them or not wouldn't matter since he sold the rights and would have no direct control over any of the matter.

    That you are taking it out of context is just you being ignorant and arguing for the sake of arguing.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-01 at 07:48 PM.

  16. #6156
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Tolkiens work itself has tons of flaws to poor writing and bad stories and plot holes, your clearly being ignorant and holding tolkiens work to a standard that is not possible to attain, his work was average at best, the movies are what actually made the series popular and not the actual books themselves.
    Well I suppose that's the kind of insanity to expect from someone who actually thinks star citizen is good.

  17. #6157
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Tolkiens work itself has tons of flaws to poor writing and bad stories and plot holes, your clearly being ignorant and holding tolkiens work to a standard that is not possible to attain, his work was average at best, the movies are what actually made the series popular and not the actual books themselves.

    I understand you are trying to defend the show, and thats cool I do agree its getting a lot of bad faith complaints but dude, lets not go crazy and start calling Tolkiens work flawed, average or just plain bad.

    Tolkiens work was inspirational long before the movies came along, Robert Jordan, Robin Hobb, George R R Martin, Raymond E. Feist, and many fantasy authors credit Tolkien as inspirations. The term "fantasy"has even become synonymous with the general aspects of Tolkien's work. Even stretching into games such as Warcraft and even Dungeons and Dragons. I mean sure you wanna argue his work has maybe aged in his writing style, thats true. But anyone who holds so much power and inspiration among fantasy in general isn't a bad or average author. The fantasy genre owes alot of thanks to Tolkein... and maybe to Mary Shelly too. Lord of the Rings is still considered by many people to be one of the greatest works of fantasy to date. Fantasy would never be where it is today without Tolkien. You know there are mountains such as Mount Shadowfax, Mount Gandalf and Mount Aragorn in Canada? What flawed bad or awful author has mountains or moons of planets named after them.

    You act like Tolkien was Terry Goodkind or something lol. Are you sure you are not getting them confused? (fuck Terry Goodkind even ripped off parts of Tolkiens work):P
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-10-01 at 08:02 PM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  18. #6158
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Tolkiens work itself has tons of flaws to poor writing and bad stories and plot holes, your clearly being ignorant and holding tolkiens work to a standard that is not possible to attain, his work was average at best, the movies are what actually made the series popular and not the actual books themselves.
    Lol, you're full of it. It's estimated LOTR sold 100 million copies before the films were made.

  19. #6159
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's through his experiences here that he ended up concluding that LOTR was unfilmable in live action, and chose not to take part in any future productions.
    That isn't indicated by his own actions though. As he kept working on adaptations right up until a company locked up the rights rather then let another company try. Then afterwards he was corresponding about an adaptation. You can't say that he wouldn't take an active role in writing a script like Rings of Power because you are not him. What I've been saying from the start but you keep trying to come up with reasons why you can speak for him while not providing any proof that he never would.

    I still haven't taken anything out of context. I've been responding to the arguments you've made as you made them. You haven't always included every restriction and stipulation that your revisionist view is trying to claim.
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  20. #6160
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    It seems you are unable to read, the books sold 50 million in 2003, the films started in 2001 so most book sales are from how popular the films were, so dont talk BS now when it take 2 mins to look up some basic facts.
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