1. #6161
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Tolkiens work itself has tons of flaws to poor writing and bad stories and plot holes, your clearly being ignorant and holding tolkiens work to a standard that is not possible to attain, his work was average at best, the movies are what actually made the series popular and not the actual books themselves.
    You do realize they use Tolkiens work to teach children in school. Not bad for someone who is bad at writing. He’s similar to Shakespeare in that way lol.

    Also the only reason why the films were made (at that time the fantasy genre was a big no no in Hollywood) was due to the success of the books.

    Get your head out the sand.

    His ideas and world building are fantastic. He wasn’t great at writing the actions sequences though, I’ll give you that.

  2. #6162
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You can't say that he wouldn't take an active role in writing a script like Rings of Power because you are not him. What I've been saying from the start but you keep trying to come up with reasons why you can speak for him while not providing any proof that he never would.
    I can say and I will say, because that's the whole point of discussing 'If he were alive'.

    And what more proof do you need than that he sold the rights and did not involve himself directly with later productions?

    Even Boorman's adaptation was argued to be not in spirit of Tolkien's work, criticized by Ralph Bakshi and furthermore Boorman even admitted his version was not very good in retrospect after the PJ movies came out. His work was still instrumental in moving things forward, but by no means some definitive product that Tolkien was fully backing. He read the screenplay, and by that time he was already paid a hefty sum enough for him to be at ease with whatever film studios choose to do with his work.

    Can you indicate that Tolkien involved himself in the project more than merely reading the screenplay at his own behest? No, you couldn't either. If your entire argument is 'no one knows either way' then you can't come at this in a way that is actually trying to prove anything right or wrong, lol. You're literally just shitposting and arguing for the sake of it.

    All you can do is say no one knows either way and whether you agree or disagree with the potential speculation. Which is exactly the context of my reply to the other poster which you took at face value as a claim and objective statement of fact. Like I said, arguing for the sake of arguing.

    If you wish to disagree, then make a statement of what you think would happen, and I'd be fine to agree or disagree. Cept you haven't made any statement at all. All you're doing is arguing the principle that no one should be able to speculate without proof. Well, then you're arguing fir the sake of it and choosing me to do so, when the original poster is just the same at fault for making this same assertion but I don't see you replying to them about it.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-01 at 08:24 PM.

  3. #6163
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I understand you are trying to defend the show, and thats cool I do agree its getting a lot of bad faith complaints but dude, lets not go crazy and start calling Tolkiens work flawed, average or just plain bad.
    Flawed is acceptable because even Tolkien himself thought it was flawed and wanted to constantly revise things. The "flat earth" thing is the biggest example but he also was going to rewrite The Hobbit "to bring it into greater harmony with the mood, language, and geography of The Lord of the Rings.". Average is of course subject to taste but a part that stands out is a letter that referenced his "normal" sales. A figure of 100 books ordered was normal but in 1972 he was told of an order for 6,000. He might even have disliked that popularity. He really benefited from the counter-culture that might not have otherwise cemented his works as the classic we know today.

    Accountancy' told me that the sales of The Hobbit were now rocketing up to hitherto unreached heights. Also a large single order for copies of The L.R. had just come in. When I did not show quite the gratified surprise expected I was gently told that a single order of 100 copies used to be pleasing (and still is for other books), but this one for The L.R. was for 6,000. -340 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 11 July 1972
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  4. #6164
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Well I suppose that's the kind of insanity to expect from someone who actually thinks star citizen is good.
    Its just simple facts im pointing out, plenty of flaws with the books themselves, so stop lying to yourself thinking they are better than they actually were, the films made the series popular, if you seriously think there were not plenty of flaws with the books then you are completely lying out your butt.

    Star Citizen is good for anyone that like space games, anyone who enjoys space games and doesnt like star citizen is not one that can ever be trusted, the game is the best one of its type currently available even for an alpha so try again with your ignorant claims.
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  5. #6165
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It seems you are unable to read, the books sold 50 million in 2003, the films started in 2001 so most book sales are from how popular the films were, so dont talk BS now when it take 2 mins to look up some basic facts.
    You mean this part from the article?

    Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001, plus 50 million copies of other Tolkien works.

    Kind of read that as 100 million before the movies were released, an extra 50 million after. Or am I reading that wrong?

  6. #6166
    Rings of Power but where the Rings at bros ?

  7. #6167
    Quote Originally Posted by Wowzers View Post
    You do realize they use Tolkiens work to teach children in school. Not bad for someone who is bad at writing. He’s similar to Shakespeare in that way lol.

    Also the only reason why the films were made (at that time the fantasy genre was a big no no in Hollywood) was due to the success of the books.

    Get your head out the sand.

    His ideas and world building are fantastic. He wasn’t great at writing the actions sequences though, I’ll give you that.
    They teach all sorts of stuff in school and most of its pointless in the real world, it doesnt mean its actually good to be used for teaching purposes, im just pointing out the books themselves are full of flaws, that doesnt mean you cant still like them but you cant claim everything about them is perfect and then moan about other things when nothing is ever going to be perfect.
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  8. #6168
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Flawed is acceptable because even Tolkien himself thought it was flawed and wanted to constantly revise things. The "flat earth" thing is the biggest example but he also was going to rewrite The Hobbit "to bring it into greater harmony with the mood, language, and geography of The Lord of the Rings.". Average is of course subject to taste but a part that stands out is a letter that referenced his "normal" sales. A figure of 100 books ordered was normal but in 1972 he was told of an order for 6,000. He might even have disliked that popularity. He really benefited from the counter-culture that might not have otherwise cemented his works as the classic we know today.
    I would argue it has holes, mainly because he never lived long enough to finish it. Which sucks. Its more the 'bad' side of being flawed I do not like thrown around.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  9. #6169
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I understand you are trying to defend the show, and thats cool I do agree its getting a lot of bad faith complaints but dude, lets not go crazy and start calling Tolkiens work flawed, average or just plain bad.

    Tolkiens work was inspirational long before the movies came along, Robert Jordan, Robin Hobb, George R R Martin, Raymond E. Feist, and many fantasy authors credit Tolkien as inspirations. The term "fantasy"has even become synonymous with the general aspects of Tolkien's work. Even stretching into games such as Warcraft and even Dungeons and Dragons. I mean sure you wanna argue his work has maybe aged in his writing style, thats true. But anyone who holds so much power and inspiration among fantasy in general isn't a bad or average author. The fantasy genre owes alot of thanks to Tolkein... and maybe to Mary Shelly too. Lord of the Rings is still considered by many people to be one of the greatest works of fantasy to date. Fantasy would never be where it is today without Tolkien. You know there are mountains such as Mount Shadowfax, Mount Gandalf and Mount Aragorn in Canada? What flawed bad or awful author has mountains or moons of planets named after them.

    You act like Tolkien was Terry Goodkind or something lol. Are you sure you are not getting them confused? (fuck Terry Goodkind even ripped off parts of Tolkiens work):P
    LOTRs is only popular because of the films, thats why films/tv series are superior as they bring those worlds to a large audience regardless of how good the book is or not, i dont really care that much about the show itself, its pretty good and wastes some time thats all a show needs to do, but ppl just ignore the flaws in the book and putting them on a pedestal that nothing can live up to.
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  10. #6170
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I can say and I will say, because that's the whole point of discussing 'If he were alive'.
    That still doesn't change that you can't speak for him to know what he would or would not do. None of his past actions definitively states one way or the other. Hence why you've hyper-focused onto one period of his life and keep trying to discredit him being involved in an adaptation. Even now you are moving the goal posts to "fully involved" because you can't ignore that Tolkien was involved to some degree after the rights were sold.

    Of course I can say you are wrong with no one knows either way. Because no one knows. You are trying to speak for a dead man. I'm not. History of Tolkien's actions indicate that what he would think about Rings of Power or how involved he would be is an unknown. The only one shit posting and arguing just for the sake of it is yourself he keeps trying to dismiss anything posted against you with those words yet continues to respond yourself. You've indicated you've since checked out of having a civil discussion. I have not. Stop using insults against me if you wish to stop discussing.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #6171
    Quote Originally Posted by Wowzers View Post
    You mean this part from the article?

    Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001, plus 50 million copies of other Tolkien works.

    Kind of read that as 100 million before the movies were released, an extra 50 million after. Or am I reading that wrong?
    You are reading it wrong "It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007" so 2 years after the films released is what made it popular, its not mentioned how many sold before the films. The 150 million by 2007 is just LOTR books alone, he does have other books that would of become popular also after the films.
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  12. #6172
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    LOTRs is only popular because of the films, thats why films/tv series are superior as they bring those worlds to a large audience regardless of how good the book is or not, i dont really care that much about the show itself, its pretty good and wastes some time thats all a show needs to do, but ppl just ignore the flaws in the book and putting them on a pedestal that nothing can live up to.
    LotR might have kept its popularity because of the films but it was certainly popular prior to. It is doubtful we would have anything Tolkien being created today if it wasn't for the films reigniting the IP. The counter-culture movement of the 1960's and 1970's is what really popularized his works. https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/...nd-the-hippies

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You are reading it wrong "It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007" so 2 years after the films released is what made it popular, its not mentioned how many sold before the films. The 150 million by 2007 is just LOTR books alone, he does have other books that would of become popular also after the films.
    Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001, plus 50 million copies of other Tolkien works. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...26402420070416
    It was 50 million since the films and not 50 million total. It is interesting to see how people thought Christopher was cashing in on his father's work with Children of Hurrin and “The Sellamillion”. It really shows that people just objected to anything new and eventually accepted it for what it was. Just an amusing little note given a lot of the hatred in the fandom to Rings of Power.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  13. #6173
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    LOTRs is only popular because of the films, thats why films/tv series are superior as they bring those worlds to a large audience regardless of how good the book is or not, i dont really care that much about the show itself, its pretty good and wastes some time thats all a show needs to do, but ppl just ignore the flaws in the book and putting them on a pedestal that nothing can live up to.
    The only reason the films were as popular as they were was because of the popularity of the books.

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  14. #6174
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    The only reason the films were as popular as they were was because of the popularity of the books.
    What are you smoking, they became popular because of the films as is backed by all the evidence, there was maybe a few hundred thousand copies around in the 60s, would be lucky to get in the millions by the time the films being made, the films are what made it popular not the books themselves.
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  15. #6175
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    What are you smoking, they became popular because of the films as is backed by all the evidence, there was maybe a few hundred thousand copies around in the 60s, would be lucky to get in the millions by the time the films being made, the films are what made it popular not the books themselves.
    Ah fuck, I replied to kenn9530 Ugh!

  16. #6176
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    LOTRs is only popular because of the films, thats why films/tv series are superior as they bring those worlds to a large audience regardless of how good the book is or not, i dont really care that much about the show itself, its pretty good and wastes some time thats all a show needs to do, but ppl just ignore the flaws in the book and putting them on a pedestal that nothing can live up to.
    Once again you are wrong.

    Maybe because you are only young enough to think the films made it popular because you never knew of it until then and were not old enough to remember a time before then. The books have had large resurgences every decade since the 1960's mostly as when the books gained huge popularity mainly due to a renewed interest in the US market around that time. The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings became required reading for the nascent counterculture around that time, pushing a lot of popularity in music, art and other cultures. then in the 80's as some schools had it put on their curriculum (lucky bustards) as well as some animated movies that gave it new life

    Then move to the 2000's because of the movies which led to video games toys and whatnot, which leads to now with the show

    I personally knew of Lord of the Rings in the mid 90's because of some old radio show my dad listened to where they had a Lord of the Rings audio play. Everyone knew what Lord of the Rings was even then. You only have to have been alive then to know. I mean sure it wasnt as over commercialised then as it is now but thats the state of a lot of media franchises today. Lord of the Rings was and will have a following for a long time as long as the books stay relevant, hell the Ring of Power show, love it or hate it has caused a big resurgence in book sales, not bad for an 'average' or 'bad' author.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-10-01 at 08:35 PM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  17. #6177
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It seems you are unable to read, the books sold 50 million in 2003, the films started in 2001 so most book sales are from how popular the films were, so dont talk BS now when it take 2 mins to look up some basic facts.
    It seems you are the one unable to read. At the time the article was written, LOTR had sold 150 million copies, 50 million after the films. That means 100 million copies sold before the films. Surely you will now admit your error...

  18. #6178
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Once again you are wrong.

    Maybe because you are only young enough to think the films made it popular because you never knew of it until then and were not old enough to remember a time before then. The books have had large resurgences every decade since the 1960's mostly as when the books gained huge popularity mainly due to a renewed interest in the US market around that time. The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings became required reading for the nascent counterculture around that time, pushing a lot of popularity in music, art and other cultures. then in the 80's as some schools had it put on their curriculum (lucky bustards) as well as some animated movies that gave it new life

    Then move to the 2000's because of the movies which led to video games toys and whatnot, which leads to now with the show

    I personally knew of Lord of the Rings in the mid 90's because of some old radio show my dad listened to where they had a Lord of the Rings audio play. Everyone knew what Lord of the Rings was even then. You only have to have been alive then to know. I mean sure it wasnt as over commercialised then as it is now but thats the state of a lot of media franchises today. Lord of the Rings was and will have a following for a long time as long as the books stay relevant, hell the Ring of Power show, love it or hate it has caused a big resurgence in book sales, not bad for an 'average' or 'bad' author.
    Im not wrong even tolkien himself stated the sales were not great, you care to provide actual proof backing you up when all the data before the films suggest a few hundred thousand copies at most were around, ppl knowing about LOTR before the films is not the same as it being popular.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    It seems you are the one unable to read. At the time the article was written, LOTR had sold 150 million copies, 50 million after the films. That means 100 million copies sold before the films. Surely you will now admit your error...
    I have made no error, films started in 2001, 50 million books were sold by 2003, and by 2007 LOTR reached 150 million, you are completely 100% wrong, i cant believe you cant even do some basic research that takes 2 mins to look into.
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  19. #6179
    It can't be any clearer: Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001

    But what else do you expect from someone who shills for Star Citizen...

  20. #6180
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Im not wrong even tolkien himself stated the sales were not great, you care to provide actual proof backing you up when all the data before the films suggest a few hundred thousand copies at most were around, ppl knowing about LOTR before the films is not the same as it being popular.
    I am not talking about sales (I think you were talking about sales with the other guy) but more or less the popularity and effect on pop culture, I am the one replying to your claim that Tolkien wasn't good or popular before the movies.

    The only thing I knew about the sales was that Tolkiens books gained more popularity in sales a few years after he published them. and by a few years I mean a few decades, which might be the 60's too or most certainly post world war 2 at least. which also come under my resurgence argument

    Also here are some tomato sauces.

    https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/...tural%20change

    https://www.tor.com/2019/01/03/a-new...j-r-r-tolkien/
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-10-01 at 08:48 PM.
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