1. #6181
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I'm not repeating falsehoods. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is false. I never said Tolkien finished the story of the 2nd age. I never said he published it. He was okay with people getting the rights to The Hobbit when he wanted to re-write the entire thing to better fit Lord of the Rings. Hence why I keep telling you that the line between published and unpublished didn't mean anything to Tolkien. Why would he have never been okay with the appendices, part of a published book, be used for an adaptation? Don't you keep saying he approved of published works being used? It is strange how you contradict yourself whenever you need to.
    You are repeating yourself and not making any sense. He didn't publish those works because they weren't finished. Therefore, by that fact alone, he didn't want them to be viewed by the public in any format. So you are repeating the same absurd illogical reasoning that just makes no sense and has nothing to do with facts.....

    I understood you the first time, you aren't saying anything different and it still is false.

    So stop wasting time repeating yourself and just leave it.

    I don't agree with you because your reasoning is nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    What I meant about fantasy is that it doesn't aim to be realistic at all. This show's combat is comparable to Xena Warrior Princess.
    Most of the 'fantastical' parts of Tolkien are the fantasy creatures almost every thing else is modeled on real world history. The armor, weapons and combat are all modeled on real world equivalents. One unique part is that some of the weapons and style of fighting varies among the various races. Otherwise, it is not a fantasy like World of Warcraft with different schools of magic and magical combat. The only thing that makes the combat in fantastical is the scale, where typical large battles have thousands and thousands of orcs versus thousands of humans and so forth. Obviously you don't see any of that in this series. The numenoreans barely were able to put together 5 ships for this mission and those ships were small in size. While in the actual lore, the Numenorean navy was so huge it covered the entire sea to the horizon and they built the largest ships ever to sail on Arda before or since. And this show obviously went against all of that with these small scale battles and so forth. The southlings or southlanders have a few raggedy huts and not even a single walled town and they face off against a few orcs. And of course a tower manned by a handful of elves that were easily captured. So none of the scale that you would expect in something written by Tolkien.

    I know I posted it before but this is the kind of epic combat of high fantasy that is all inspired by Tolkien. And the large warrior could be seen as something like what a Numenorean is in Tolkien.



    And most people experience high fantasy from video games like this, so compared to that, what we see in this series is much less epic.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-10-04 at 09:46 PM.

  2. #6182
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Only the blind or the hopefully actually tough this was not going to be awful, anyone who read bout what they were doing already knew how it was going to end, and turns out? they were right anyway.
    so from the start people thought it would be bad without actually seeing any of it but still stuck around for months in advance solely to hate on it?

    Sounds a lot like an anti fanbase.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #6183
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    You are repeating yourself and not making any sense. He didn't publish those works because they weren't finished. Therefore, by that fact alone, he didn't want them to be viewed by the public in any format. So you are repeating the same absurd illogical reasoning that just makes no sense and has nothing to do with facts
    Yet he willingly gave information, contained with in, to people when inquiring about stuff. He never considered any of his works finished. Hence why up until his death he was fixing and changing things. Your reasoning of "published" has no merit because of how he treated all of his work. You don't have to like it but to call it a falsehood or nonsense is silly.

    The biggest tale is that Canon incorporates those unpublished works. If we are to count them as things that Tolkien didn't want the public to see then only The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings matters to canon. I'm pretty sure you've used things from the work his son published that JRR never wanted to be public in discussions before. Most people that discuss Tolkien have. So it is silly to only draw the line now for "adaptations". It also ignores how Rings of Power is drawing from work that was published in addition to unpublished work. So your reasoning is even more irrelevant to the show.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-10-04 at 09:44 PM.
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  4. #6184
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    They were still at the tower when night fell.
    They look up to the tower and then it cuts to the orcs already at the base of the mountain below the tower.

    But I was confused by this as well and looking at it I thought the orc were on the other side of the mountain and the villages just went down on their side...
    But that can't be it since it's a reservoir on the other side of it and mountains around. And the water went through the village so by that account it has to be on the same side...

    I jot it down to teleportation like so many other things. This "filling in the blanks" seems very common, too much in fact.
    The distance makes it seem like they're about a day's travel away, far enough that they have a pretty good distance from the tower. That being said, I don't actually know how far the watchtower is from the village, how far they are at that position from the village, or how the Orcs wouldn't have been able to scout that. Shenanigans are certainly afoot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    In the trailer Amazon released for the meteor it is implied her eyes are tracking it it. 2 seconds in. However in the actual episode she "tracks" birds instead. Some have a theory that her brothers dagger was "modified" by Sauron and influencing her actions. Maybe it being touched by Valinor "did something". If the Meteor man is not a friendly Maiar/thing it could have summoned him.

    I think it is clear the Meteor appeared at the same time she felt the call of the dagger though. As it streaking across the sky is interwoven with her. The impact even transitions to her jumping in the water with the impact sound still playing as she goes underwater. It is an odd choice if it isn't the same point in time. 0:53 to 0:58 if anyone wants to rewatch that portion of the 1st episode.

    Trailer:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ALOgprj1xg
    I think this would be a more awkward explanation to have time be comparable between all 3 plotlines. I get what they're trying to imply with cuts and stuff, but there's also been other time inconsistencies that I've brought up before, like Ep 3 when Halbrand and Galadriel are already in Numenor and supposed to be there within 2-3 days, while Sauron Simp talks about the Meteor falling weeks ago. It's odd time passage between the two plotlines, and between scenes in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Most of the 'fantastical' parts of Tolkien are the fantasy creatures almost every thing else is modeled on real world history.
    I get what you're trying to say, but my comparison again is to Xena's combat or Pro Wrestling. Plenty of stuff is tied to the real world, but it's all scripted out for the purpose of entertainment and cartoon-level dramatic effect more than an authentic realistic world. This is not Tolkien in whatever sense you actually want to consider it to be, it's an over-exaggerated version where the action is overdramatized for the sake of entertainment.

    It doesn't matter what armor they're wearing or what weapons they're using if the characters are being protected by Plot Armor. Even main characters being skewered by arrows will end up walking it off by the end of the episode.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-04 at 09:50 PM.

  5. #6185
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    so from the start people thought it would be bad without actually seeing any of it but still stuck around for months in advance solely to hate on it?

    Sounds a lot like an anti fanbase.
    You don't need to see it though? with all the info we had, and people were discussing, if you think the thread should be closed until aired that is another subject.

  6. #6186
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You don't need to see it though? with all the info we had, and people were discussing, if you think the thread should be closed until aired that is another subject.
    the thread doesn't need to be closed before airing but we also don't need to pretend that people who made up there minds with the initial casting releases/posters and still stuck around to do nothing but hate on something they already wrote off aren't anti fans.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #6187
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Tolkien's work is not generic fantasy because of all the work he put into establishing the back story, languages, cultures, races and history of Middle Earth. That is the complete opposite of "generic" fantasy. Do you even know what that term means?
    Have you forgotten where you are? This is a WoW forum. Extensive and in depth fictional histories with hosts of races and even made up languages are extremely common across fantasy settings in book series, video games, table top RPG’s, collectible card games, shows, and movies nowadays. It’s pretty much expected.

    Tolkien’s depictions of dwarves, elves, orcs, goblins, etc have all pretty much become the generic versions that people think of. Being synonymous with “generic high fantasy” is a strength of Tolkien’s legacy.

  8. #6188
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Have you forgotten where you are? This is a WoW forum. Extensive and in depth fictional histories with hosts of races and even made up languages are extremely common across fantasy settings in book series, video games, table top RPG’s, collectible card games, shows, and movies nowadays. It’s pretty much expected.

    Tolkien’s depictions of dwarves, elves, orcs, goblins, etc have all pretty much become the generic versions that people think of. Being synonymous with “generic high fantasy” is a strength of Tolkien’s legacy.
    That's the oddest explanation I've ever heard.

    Tolkien paved the way for modern fantasy. So no, it wasn't generic, because it was the benchmark that opened up an entire new genre. Generic fantasy would be used to describe copy-cats of Tolkien's work without building a strong self identity for themselves.

    It'd be odd to call something like Isaac Asimov's work as 'Generic robot Sci Fi' or Lovecraft's work as 'Generic cosmic Horror'.

  9. #6189
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Tolkien’s depictions of dwarves, elves, orcs, goblins, etc have all pretty much become the generic versions that people think of. Being synonymous with “generic high fantasy” is a strength of Tolkien’s legacy.
    The only reason I can see for someone trying to argue otherwise is that they want to use "generic fantasy" as an insult.

  10. #6190
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't true for every time. I even did a casual skip through the episode and saw plenty of cases where Orcs were armed. You are over exaggerating because of your dislike for the show.

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    If people stop liking something just because it is more inclusive or shows diversity then that is one them. It is still a brainless take because "woke" is used for anything that shows women as powerful, non-normal skin tones, etc. The presence of black people on Rings of Power literally has no impact on the quality of the show. That is something that is labeled "woke". It is just a silly insult and it is even sillier to defend the use of it.
    Again identity politics are used as shields for bad writing. Bad writing is exacerbated by casting based on race and gender instead of ability. This is on display in both Rings of Power and Rafe of Time. It's the height of arrogance to think you can improve on the work of writers who have sold millions and to use those properties to push your own politics. Adapt the work stop trying to push your shitty fanfic level writing while putting a veneer of the property over it. Hell there are fanfic writers who would do a much better job than these hacks. Webtoons are a great example of adaptations most of them are based on web novels or light novels and a each episode usually works out to about a third to half a chapter yet somehow they manage to actually adapt the work they are coming from without the artist massively changing the author's work.

  11. #6191
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    It's the height of arrogance to think you can improve on the work of writers who have sold millions and to use those properties to push your own politics.
    This shows how silly the "woke" arguments in in regards to Rings of Power are. A black dwarf changes nothing about the story. A black elf changes nothing about the story.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-10-05 at 12:05 AM.
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  12. #6192
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    This shows how silly the "woke" arguments in in regards to Rings of Power are. A black dwarf changes nothing about the story. A black elf changes nothing about the story.
    You ignored the rest as usual. The black dwarf and black elf are used to deflect criticisms about the garbage tier writing as racism. That's the issue at hand the writing is trash and heavily diverges from the parts of the second age we know about instead of expanding upon them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    This thread alone broke 100 pages month before the show was out due to people hating on the show without seeing any bad writing or how the show was amateurish, there is absolutely an anti fanbase and has been one since they said they were casting outside of just white people.
    Trailers looked bad, "armor" looked cosplay level had next to no weathering done. Managed to look both brand new and cheap which was an accomplishment. The significant info post was the "super fans" trailer that was lauding the casting instead of talking about the story. They confirmed there were massively compressing thousands of years of history instead of focusing on a specific time period per season for example. The next major piece of content was the interview talking about how excited they were for girl orcs again very little about actual storylines being focused on. Following that post release we have seen what they did the tradgedy of Tar-Míriel aka it doesn't exist. Not only is she apparently able to order the armory but she is in fact the ruling monarch as her father is dying. Should be fairly entertaining to see how she outwits Ar-Pharazôn because I can't see this so called writing staff actually following through on her history that showcases the downfall of man.

    This story shouldn't be having a positive tilt it's the story of the downfall of Numenor and the rise of Sauron.

  13. #6193
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    You ignored the rest as usual. The black dwarf and black elf are used to deflect criticisms about the garbage tier writing as racism. That's the issue at hand the writing is trash and heavily diverges from the parts of the second age we know about instead of expanding upon them.
    I didn't ignore anything. I highlighted the important part of your statement that shows it is all about racism with the excuse of "it is arrogance to think you can improve on the writer". A black actor or actress does nothing to change the writing. If you switch their casting to white actors or actresses the writing will still be bad. The show diverging from canon of the second age (which if you go by just JRR published stuff is very little) would be the same with skin tone accurate castings.

    If you switch Tolkien's characters to different skin-tones nothing about his story changes. Frodo being black wouldn't change anything at all. This is why "woke" is silly in the context of this show.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-10-05 at 12:31 AM.
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  14. #6194
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I didn't ignore anything. I highlighted the important part of your statement that shows it is all about racism with the excuse of "it is arrogance to think you can improve on the writer". A black actor or actress does nothing to change the writing. If you switch their casting to white actors or actresses the writing will still be bad. The show diverging from canon of the second age (which if you go by just JRR published stuff is very little) would be the same with skin tone accurate castings.

    If you switch Tolkien's characters to different skin-tones nothing about his story changes. Frodo being black wouldn't change anything at all. This is why "woke" is silly in the context of this show.
    Your level of speaking matches that of your avatar.

  15. #6195
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If you switch Tolkien's characters to different skin-tones nothing about his story changes. Frodo being black wouldn't change anything at all. This is why "woke" is silly in the context of this show.
    If the argument is that it doesn't change anything, then the change can also be argued to be unnecessary.

    And I'd say my personal criticism of Arondir is that the character isn't necessary at all to Rings of Power's story. Being clear here, it's n\othing about the actor or their portrayal. The Arondir character literally exists because of Amazon wanting a Black Elf character of significance, without giving it to a role as important as say Galadriel or Elrond or any other notable Elf. They inserted this character into the show for the sake of diversity, and it's kind of telling. I could say the same of Disa, where she's here because they want to make a statement more than anything. I enjoy the character a lot, and she's a fantastic addition to the show and I want to see more of her. But I'm not gonna pretend she's there because the actress won the part against all other actresses regardless of skintone or whatnot; this stuff is pre-planned and they wanted a Black Dwarf and found someone who could fit a Black Dwarf role. This shit doesn't happen by accident.

    It's similar to the reasoning they added Tauriel to the Hobbit. There weren't many strong female characters in the Hobbit like there were in LOTR with Arwen, Galadriel and Eowyn, so they created one for the Hobbit so it wouldn't be such a sausage-fest. Problem is her character ended up being unnecessary and frankly quite one-note, and didn't do anything for the story overall. I feel the same way I do about Arondir being in Rings of Power as I did Tauriel, their existence in these adaptations literally being because of boobs or skin color.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 12:52 AM.

  16. #6196
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Again identity politics are used as shields for bad writing. Bad writing is exacerbated by casting based on race and gender instead of ability.
    It's a bit hilarious that most of this bullshit dried up the instant the show actually came out, and it was demonstrated that the casting of actors of the "wrong" skin color ended up having no impact on its story or quality.

    But you just keep on banging that drum. Maybe one day it will work out for you.

    More likely that the world will simply keep on spinning, and studios will continue to cast whoever the hell they want and happily ignore the petulant whining of racist fucks.

  17. #6197
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If the argument is that it doesn't change anything, then the change can also be argued to be unnecessary.
    Of course the change isn't necessary. It baffles me how much people try and make an issue out of skin-tone when it impacts nothing of the story. Arondir doesn't exist because of forced diversity. If he was a white person then his story wouldn't have to change. It isn't forced diversity and you managed to critique the arc in the past without being racist. So why start now?
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  18. #6198
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Of course the change isn't necessary. It baffles me how much people try and make an issue out of skin-tone when it impacts nothing of the story. Arondir doesn't exist because of forced diversity. If he was a white person then his story wouldn't have to change. You really didn't have to be racist just to call Arondir an unessacary story arc. You did it in the past with out making it about race so why start now?
    Yes but you're arguing as though the Arondir character is even necessary to begin with.

    Think of it this way - if Tauriel was a dude Elf, would they even need to exist in the Hobbit? What purpose would there be to have yet another dude Elf? They already brought Legolas back into it. Tauriel's existence is literally because they wanted a strong female character badass. And we can argue that 'well it could have been a dude elf and it wouldn't change anything' and that'd be true too, but it'd also be pointless since the whole reason the character exists is literally because they wanted gender diversity.

    Arondir's character isn't necessary for the story at all. Like, if you literally edit this character out of Rings of Power's 6 episodes that we have right now, all the events would still happen with literally no change to any of the major or significant events. You don't even have to argue that it doesn't change if you swap the actor, the entire role has no importance to the main arc other than to be the Southland human's love interest.

    I can see them setting him up for bigger importance in the future, so I won't argue his existence is going to be important. He's a POV character after all. But I'm making a point that it's quite contrived how his character fits the narrative we see so far, and honestly it's kind of a waste of time. I have similar feelings towards the Harfoots being introduced in retrospect, since their only real reason to exist is because of a Hobbit (race) connection, otherwise their connection to the story so far is also quite loose and unrelated to the main plot. We could literally follow the entire Stranger plot without Harfoots at all, and that's all depending on where they're actually going with the Stranger.

    Like up until this point, what is the story really about? It's about Sauron's return and the eventual creation of the Rings of Power. Galadriel and Halbrand are important, Elrond and Durin are important, the Numenoreans are important, the Southlanders and shaping of Mordor are important. And while we don't fully know yet, the Stranger will be important as well somehow. How do Arondir and the Harfoots really fit into this? They're very supplementary to the whole thing, like just being there along for the ride. Well, they exist because of familiarity and diversity reasons more than actual plot reasons, really.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 01:11 AM.

  19. #6199
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes but you're arguing as though the Arondir character is even necessary to begin with.
    The Story as Rings of Power is telling it requires a character in that role. Of course they could have written a different story. That still doesn't mean the story arc is written just to force diversity. It would be the same story arc with a "canon skin tone" character. This is why it is silly for you to equate to race.

    It is also silly for you to claim the show would play out the same without Arondir. Adar would have had the sword sooner and marched right up to the tower unopposed. The villagers would have been killed or converted. Mt.Doom would have exploded while the Numenorians were still at sea. Everything about the story Rings of Power is telling would be changed.
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  20. #6200
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The Story as Rings of Power is telling it requires a character in that role. Of course they could have written a different story. That still doesn't mean the story arc is written just to force diversity. It would be the same story arc with a "canon skin tone" character. This is why it is silly for you to equate to race.
    Again, I'm arguing that the entire role is unnecessary to Rings of Power's story. And your argument that it's necessary for the story it's telling is no different than if I said Tauriel is unnecessary to the Hobbit. Sure, you could also say she's important to the Hobbit adaptation that they want to tell - it doesn't mean they made her relevant to the actual story they ended up telling. You could literally edit her out entirely, and the story still plays through fine. And we do have versions of this that work without her character in the story - the original Novel, and the Maple Films cut that edits the trilogy down to a single movie.

    It is also silly for you to claim the show would play out the same without Arondir. Adar would have had the sword sooner and marched right up to the tower unopposed. The villagers would have been killed or converted. Mt.Doom would have exploded while the Numenorians were still at sea. Everything about the story Rings of Power is telling would be changed.
    If you're going to argue that Galadriel would have been stuck out at sea if not for Arondir, then you first need to acknowledge how long it actually takes for Galadriel to get from Numenor to the Southlands, and you can't. No one has any frame of reference how long it actually took Galadriel and the Numenoreans to get to the Southlands; it implemented teleportation shenanigans and did not show any progression of their travel whatsoever. There's no frame of reference to show us if Arondir had not been there, Galadriel wouldn't have made it in time. Time progression isn't something the show does a good job of establishing.

    She simply appears when the show deemed it convenient, that's all. I don't think it's a strong argument to say the events wouldn't play out had Arondir not been there any more than you could say Mt. Doom wouldn't explode if Adar didn't get the hilt from Theo. The story HAS to have Mt. Doom explode, how it goes about doing it can be done in any fashion the writers want. It could even be from Galadriel handing it to the Southlander dude, not knowing he's secretly working under Adar. It isn't really an argument to say that Theo had to be the one to give it to him, and not an argument to say 'this is the story the show had to tell' because there's a million ways to edit footage to tell a completely different story.

    I think you underestimate the power of editing.

    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 01:41 AM.

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