1. #6201
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That's the oddest explanation I've ever heard.

    Tolkien paved the way for modern fantasy. So no, it wasn't generic, because it was the benchmark that opened up an entire new genre. Generic fantasy would be used to describe copy-cats of Tolkien's work without building a strong self identity for themselves.
    I never said it WAS generic. It BECAME generic.

    Tolkien pioneered many of these things, but they are almost all now common qualities of fantasy fiction. Tolkien did it first (in most cases) and he did it well, but in doing so his works pretty much became just the baseline.

    On top of that, the initial post I was responding to was coming from the perspective of visuals. What most people expect when someone says “looks like Tolkien” is “looks like the Peter Jackson trilogy”, and in that respect RoP looks as much like Tolkien as it does generic fantasy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    The only reason I can see for someone trying to argue otherwise is that they want to use "generic fantasy" as an insult.
    Yeah, pretty much.

  2. #6202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Again, I'm arguing that the entire role is unnecessary to Rings of Power's story.
    It is necessary for the story they chose to tell. It isn't necessary that the character be black. It changes nothing that a character is black.

    I didn't say Galadriel would be stuck out at sea. I said they would be sailing to middle earth when Mt.Doom erupts. It didn't implement teleportation shenanigans. They talk about the path they will take to get there. If Arondir had not been there then the entire story would have to change. Everything he does wouldn't happen and thus there would be no one to resist Adar and the Orcs. We know Galadriel wouldn't have made it in time because it is the resistance Arondir organizes that delays the Orcs. Lol.
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  3. #6203
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I didn't say Galadriel would be stuck out at sea. I said they would be sailing to middle earth when Mt.Doom erupts. It didn't implement teleportation shenanigans. They talk about the path they will take to get there. If Arondir had not been there then the entire story would have to change. Everything he does wouldn't happen and thus there would be no one to resist Adar and the Orcs. We know Galadriel wouldn't have made it in time because it is the resistance Arondir organizes that delays the Orcs. Lol.
    Just because they had a path and a map to go by doesn't tell the audience how long it takes for them to get there. We didn't even know if they would arrive at the village if not for the teaser/trailer footage literally leaking that out. Nothing in the show actually indicated how long it takes for Galadriel to get there or how important it would be for Arondir to stall the Orcs with the Watchtower thing. Hell, if Adar were a better commander he woulda sent a few scouts out to literally find out that the Watchtower was empty cept for a single Elf. But I guess that isn't the story they want to tell so let's not think about it?

    The point is the writers intended for Adar to be stalled at the Watchtower, and it was done so in a contrived way that 'bought time' for Galadriel to get there. And even then she just got there without any sense of time progression. While watching the episode, did you know she was going to even be there in time for a big battle? I don't think anyone really did unless they watched teaser footage.

    If Arondir had not been there then the entire story would have to change.
    Only the details change. The major plot points aren't affected by his actions overall. It's not like Theo would have died if Arondir didn't save him in that one episode. It's not like the Village wouldn't burn if he'd escaped to the Watchtower. It's not like Galadriel wouldn't have made it there if he hadn't stalled Adar.

    I mean at this point we're circling as if you would argue that Tauriel's scenes were important to the Hobbit because they had her saving the Dwarves from the Spiders of Mirkwood, or she had to be there to heal Kili's wound. Those entire scenes were unnecessary and unimportant to the story, that's the whole point.

    The story of Rings of Power in this current first season is about establishing the creation of Mordor, and that will happen regardless of what Arondir actually did so far. Understand?

  4. #6204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The point is the writers intended for Adar to be stalled at the Watchtower, and it was done so in a contrived way that 'bought time' for Galadriel to get there.
    So you admit the story would be different without the Arondir character present to delay Adar. Theo could have died if captured by the orcs and not saved. They wanted the sword and not Theo. The village could have burned if there was no resistance or an elf to plan it. Your arguments about teleportation clearly reveal that you would have complained about tunnels and trenches appearing out of no where. We never would have saw those without Arondir.

    The creation of Mordor would be different if Arondir didn't exist. It is silly to think it would play out exactly the same with out him. Removing a main character changes a story. Skin tone however does not.
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  5. #6205
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you admit the story would be different without the Arondir character present to delay Adar. Theo could have died if captured by the orcs and not saved. They wanted the sword and not Theo.
    Theo has plot armor, so wouldn't have died. Same with his mom, and she literally walked off after having pipe-sized arrows yanked out and causing would-be massive blood loss. Had Arondir not been there, she woulda survived too.

    The village could have burned if there was no resistance or an elf to plan it.
    The village burns anyways.

    Your arguments about teleportation clearly reveal that you would have complained about tunnels and trenches appearing out of no where. We never would have saw those without Arondir.
    Nonsense. The show could have EASILY dedicated some Orc/Adar POV scenes peppered throughout the show. Why would our only look into the Orcs have to be through the POV of prisoners? There's no reason why they couldn't unveil this through a simple Orc-centric POV.

    The creation of Mordor would be different if Arondir didn't exist. It is silly to think it would play out exactly the same with out him.
    How did Mordor get created? Because Adar gets the sword. How Adar gets the sword could be told a million different ways that didn't involve Arondir at all, considering he wasn't even the one who gave it to Adar.

    Removing a main character changes a story. Skin tone however does not.
    Point is, the character literally exists because of his skintone, because otherwise his actual role in the story isn't even all that significant to the main plot. It's a very odd direction that this show has chosen honestly.

    And I don't say this because I dislike the character or don't think the character fits the show or anything like that. I'm literally pointing out how the character feels shoehorned into the story so far, and hasn't really done anything that ties into the actual main plot that is actually necessary. IMO, he's there just for the sake of representation, like Tauriel was.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 02:25 AM.

  6. #6206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    How did Mordor get created? Because Adar gets the sword. How Adar gets the sword could be told a million different ways that didn't involve Arondir at all, considering he wasn't even the one who gave it to Adar.
    Yet you said the character could be removed and the story wouldn't change. A million different ways is changing the story. The character is not present just because of skin tone as the arc would work the same if the character was white. Stop being racist. The skin tone choices of the show impact absolutely zero of the story.
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  7. #6207
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Yet you said the character could be removed and the story wouldn't change. A million different ways is changing the story. The character is not present just because of skin tone as the arc would work the same if the character was white. Stop being racist. The skin tone choices of the show impact absolutely zero of the story.
    You realize you just admitted the character could be completely removed and it would change nothing there is no significance to the character. The writing would still be trash but it wouldn't have a shield to hide behind. Also yes actor skill makes a huge difference. The daredevil movie for as mediocre as it was is one of the times I absolutely believe casting was purely done off talent because holy crap Michael Clark Duncan carried that role vocally even if he wasn't perfect in terms of visuals his vocal work was incredible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    It's a bit hilarious that most of this bullshit dried up the instant the show actually came out, and it was demonstrated that the casting of actors of the "wrong" skin color ended up having no impact on its story or quality.

    But you just keep on banging that drum. Maybe one day it will work out for you.

    More likely that the world will simply keep on spinning, and studios will continue to cast whoever the hell they want and happily ignore the petulant whining of racist fucks.
    ? The writing is absolutely trash.

  8. #6208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    You realize you just admitted the character could be completely removed and it would change nothing there is no significance to the character.
    How do you figure that? I said the character works the same regardless of skin tone. That isn't removing a character but changing their skin tone. A white Arondir would be the exact same as a Black Arondir. His role in the story doesn't change because of his skin tone. I've also said removing the character would change the story.
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  9. #6209
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Yet you said the character could be removed and the story wouldn't change. A million different ways is changing the story.
    Yes, because the story is about the creation of Mordor, the Rings and the search for Sauron. The plot doesn't change.

    There are a million ways to change the story elements to fit the overall plot. The Maple Cut of the Hobbit is a great example of how the Hobbit movies could be adapted differently while keeping the exact same plot. The extended LOTR trilogy is another example of how the same plot can be told with more scenes that change and add to the plot. There isn't just a single way that the plot could be told.

    The character is not present just because of skin tone as the arc would work the same if the character was white. Stop being racist. The skin tone choices of the show impact absolutely zero of the story.
    Er, saying the character isn't necessary to the plot isn't racist. Saying the character shouldn't be portrayed by a black actor would be racist, and no one is implying that. Stop projecting racist bullshit where none is being said.

    If you keep pulling this bullshit, I'm just gonna call you out on it every time you shitpost. You already know this.

    I equated it very simply to Tauriel. If the context of the argument is that Tauriel is unnecessary to the overall plot and could be cut entirely without changing the plot, then that isn't some discriminatory statement. It's a statement on how the character is unnecessary to the overall plot.

    And Tauriel is admittedly added because the creators wanted to diversify the cast with a strong female character where none existed in the Hobbit. That much is known. What I'm equating Arondir to is the same situation, where they are literally inserting a Black Elf character for this very reason, because otherwise the character doesn't even fit well into the plot. Even if they replace the character with a white actor, we already regard that his entire character is unnecessary to the plot (in context and retrospect of the current 6 episodes). My point is there is a reason why this role isn't merely given to a white actor, one that is being decided by creators of this series.

    And if you hadn't been paying attention to the marketting behind RoP before it came out and the whole Superfan event that was a whole self-congratulatory slap on the back for bringing diversity into this series, then you might not get the full picture of why Arondir actually exists in this show. The Superfan event would be quite different if Arondir were a white actor, I can tell you that.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 05:01 AM.

  10. #6210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, because the story is about the creation of Mordor, the Rings and the search for Sauron. The plot doesn't change. There are a million ways to change the story elements to fit the overall plot.
    You can't have it both ways. Either the story changes or it doesn't change. Saying the character is unnecessary isn't why I called you racist. Making it about their skin tone is why your statements are racist. The characters would function the exact same way if they were white. Just as Frodo would function the exact same way if he wasn't white. Or Gandalf. Etc. I'm not projecting racist things here. You made those type of statements at least own up to them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Point is, the character literally exists because of his skintone
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Being clear here, it's n\othing about the actor or their portrayal. The Arondir character literally exists because of Amazon wanting a Black Elf character of significance
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But I'm not gonna pretend she's there because the actress won the part against all other actresses regardless of skintone or whatnot; this stuff is pre-planned and they wanted a Black Dwarf and found someone who could fit a Black Dwarf role
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  11. #6211
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You can't have it both ways.
    Sure you can.

    Remove the Arondir character. The plot stays the same. That's exactly 'both ways'.

    Saying the character is unnecessary isn't why I called you racist. Making it about their skin tone is why your statements are racist.
    You obviously haven't seen the Superfan promos they did for Rings of Power if you think I'm the only one making it about skin tone :/

    Like I said, we can talk about this Arondir character as if he were white, but he'd still be an unnecessary character to the series, and the marketting behind this character would be quite different.

    Would you call me anti-feminisit for making the same comments about Tauriel? If not, you're implying double standards, no?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 04:25 AM.

  12. #6212
    The show is terrible in many ways. I can't believe they didn't notice what they were filming.

    If you tell me this is small budget series, I would understand the lack of writing, pacing, convenience, etc. But that's not the case.

  13. #6213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Sure you can. Remove the Arondir character. The plot stays the same. That's exactly 'both ways'.
    It doesn't though as you've stated. The story and the plot require changes with out that character present. They are a main character. I never said you were the only one making it about race. Being racist doesn't go away just because other people are racist as well. Of course we can talk about him as his skin color didn't matter. Yet you still choose to make it about race and skin color.
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  14. #6214
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It doesn't though as you've stated. The story and the plot require changes with out that character present.
    It's the definition of narrative filler.

    Removing it would not affect the plot overall. Mount Doom would still explode if you removed Arondir from the picture. Everything important actually happens around him, not directly through him.

    Why the show decided to write the show this way, I have no clue, but his character isn't necessary to the plot overall. The sequence of events would still play out without him.

    Adar still gets the hilt, Galadriel is still the one who saves the village and captures Adar, and the hilt would still be used to blow up Mount Doom.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 04:51 AM.

  15. #6215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The plot doesn't change, only story elements do.
    The plot is "the how, when, and why". Story is "the who, what, and where". That changes if Arondir is not present because he is a main character. If you edit Arondir out of the existing show then scenes would no longer make sense. You'd have a tower and orcs that just die from an invisible threat.
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  16. #6216
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The plot is "the how, when, and why". Story is "the who, what, and where". That changes if Arondir is not present because he is a main character. If you edit Arondir out of the existing show then scenes would no longer make sense. You'd have a tower and orcs that just die from an invisible threat.
    Why would you be talking about just having Arondir edited out with the show revolving around the Southlanders and Watchtower Elves talking to someone who isn't there? Why are you taking things way too literally? I can't tell if you're trolling or not, honestly.


    You don't actually understand what I'm talking about when I say remove narrative filler, do you? If we're talking about removing a filler character, then the entire associated filler goes with it.

    Just like if I were to talk about removing Tauriel from the Hobbit, then all of her associated scenes, like saving the Dwarves from the Spiders or healing Kili's leg, would also be cut. The overall plot of the movies would remain the same. Kili doesn't need to suffer an injury to his leg to move into the final act. The Dwarves didn't need to be saved by Tauriel, Bilbo was already doing that. See how that works?

    What you're talking about is.. delusional. I'm not even sure why you're responding with this line of argument.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 05:09 AM.

  17. #6217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Why would you be talking about just having Arondir edited out with the show revolving around the Southlanders and Watchtower Elves talking to someone who isn't there?
    That is what you claimed before you edited it out of your post. It is silly to hide that argument when you made the same argument earlier in the thread when referencing a Seven re-cut trailer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I think you underestimate the power of editing.
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  18. #6218
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That is what you claimed before you edited it out of your post. It is silly to hide that argument when you made the same argument earlier in the thread when referencing a Seven re-cut trailer.
    I said you could cut the character, meaning him and his associated scenes.

    I'm not sure how you took it so literally.



    This isn't what I mean by cutting out the character. Even if it would be amusing.


    By editing I showed you the Seven trailer that turns it into a romantic comedy trailer. That's how powerful changing around sequencing and editing scenes can be.

    If you want to see a great example of what I mean, watch the Maple cut of the Hobbit. I've name dropped it multiple times now, and it does exactly what I'm talking about with editing out Tauriel and Radaghast completely from the Hobbit trilogy. The plot remains exactly the same.

    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 05:18 AM.

  19. #6219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    By editing I showed you the Seven trailer that turns it into a romantic comedy trailer. That's how powerful changing around sequencing and editing scenes can be.
    Which you can't do while keep the same story and plot of the show. Because Arondir is a main character that is integral for moving those things along. The Watchtower couldn't be destroyed without him present. The scene with the blood cow or the Tavern wouldn't make much sense. A lot of things wouldn't make much sense by editing out the character and/or associated scenes. It would leave literally holes in the telling of the remaining scenes.
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  20. #6220
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which you can't do while keep the same story and plot of the show. Because Arondir is a main character that is integral for moving those things along. The Watchtower couldn't be destroyed without him present. The scene with the blood cow or the Tavern wouldn't make much sense. A lot of things wouldn't make much sense by editing out the character and/or associated scenes. It would leave literally holes in the telling of the remaining scenes.
    The watchtower doesn't even need to be shown being destroyed. The entire scene can be cut without affecting the plot, because it's literally filler.

    You understand what filler is, right? Because we can't really carry on the discussion if you don't.

    Entire sections of the show can be cut alongside Arondir, without affecting the plot, because most of it is actually filler.

    The blood cow? Filler, because Galadriel already establishes that evil is growing in the Southlands through the map revelation. Tavern scene? What importance is showing their emnity to the Elves to the overall plot? We could literally cut it, and we still know there are Sauron supporters through that one scene in the Watchtower with Theo and the Traitor dude talking about Sauron's return. We don't need to establish the Southlanders having a beef against Elves, because that's not even played up in the show. The Sauron sympathists had plenty of reason to defect without Elf discrimination as a motivating factor, they were either sympathetic to his return or felt it was their best chances at survival against the Orcs. The Elves were already gone by the time they even get to the Watchtower, and Arondir was imprisoned for much of that time. There isn't any payoff for that Tavern scene at all now that you bring it up.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 05:50 AM.

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