1. #6201
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    He sold the rights to his work which means it doesn't matter if stuff was finished or not. His intent was to give away the rights. We even know that he wanted to rewrite his books several times so nothing was ever "finished" in his eyes. So it is silly to think that he would hold some work differently then others just because it wasn't a book or published. He didn't hold published as some special status.
    He sold film rights to the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit books and the appendices are included in the LOTR books. He never sold any rights to any appendices as justification for a television series covering the second age. These were sold by the Tolkien estate 5 years ago. So his intent was not to give the rights for an adaptation of the 2nd age based on the appendices because at that time, the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and his notes had not been published. Those are the main books covering the 2nd and prior ages, so if he didn't publish them, then obviously he didn't intend for people to read them let alone have movies or TV shows made about them. So the only thing he sold the rights for were the books as a whole to be made into films and it is those books that were his primary published work on Middle Earth before he died.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-10-01 at 10:17 PM.

  2. #6202
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Flaws can make something bad though, wouldn't you agree?

    And there are flaws in Rings if Power that make it bad, those being issues of pacing and focus. Many things should be cut which aren't, many plot elements are contrived and don't feel natural to the story, and there is an overall issue of setup and payoff.

    That being said, Rings of Power is not conpletely flawed or conpletely bad. It's just not as great as you may think it is, either because you are overlooking the flaws or do not realize they are flaws at all.
    Everything is flawed in its own way, its your own opinion if you think its bad or not, and most ppl dont think that way and dont care about flaws that are natural to have, these stories are made up there is no natural way to do anything when its all made up, it also doesnt need to follow tolkeins path if they dont want or if there was no path to even follow.

    The only thing a tv series and film has to do is entertain and RoP does that job to a very good level.
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  3. #6203
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Flaws can make something bad though, wouldn't you agree?

    And there are flaws in Rings if Power that make it bad, those being issues of pacing and focus. Many things should be cut which aren't, many plot elements are contrived and don't feel natural to the story, and there is an overall issue of setup and payoff.

    That being said, Rings of Power is not conpletely flawed or conpletely bad. It's just not as great as you may think it is, either because you are overlooking the flaws or do not realize they are flaws at all.
    That is a subjective statement though. Because for a lot of people those things are enough to make something bad. But it depends. There are some cases where such flaws will be accepted, because most films or TV shows have them, but it has to be balanced out by something appealing. And that varies by person and by specific title as to how much of the flaws will be accepted and outweighed by those elements they like. Obviously a tv show or series would want to put their best foot forward as much as possible to be generally appealing to as many people as possible.

  4. #6204
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    It seems you are unable to read, the books sold 50 million in 2003, the films started in 2001 so most book sales are from how popular the films were, so dont talk BS now when it take 2 mins to look up some basic facts.
    50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001

    Which means 100 million were before genius

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Its just simple facts im pointing out, plenty of flaws with the books themselves, so stop lying to yourself thinking they are better than they actually were, the films made the series popular, if you seriously think there were not plenty of flaws with the books then you are completely lying out your butt.

    Star Citizen is good for anyone that like space games, anyone who enjoys space games and doesnt like star citizen is not one that can ever be trusted, the game is the best one of its type currently available even for an alpha so try again with your ignorant claims.
    Star Citizen is trash and should have stayed vaporware to be spared becoming another Duke Nukem Forever much better to be Starcraft Ghost.

  5. #6205
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001

    Which means 100 million were before genius

    - - - Updated - - -



    Star Citizen is trash and should have stayed vaporware to be spared becoming another Duke Nukem Forever much better to be Starcraft Ghost.
    No the LOTR series sold 50 million by 2003, thats 2 years after the first movie, by 2007 the LOTR books had sold 150 million, do some basic research and you wont be embarrassed by incorrect information.

    The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

    What gives you the impression by the above information that 100 million copies were sold before the films, when it clearly states the series reached 150 million by 2007.

    SC has already been proven to be the best game of its genre and its still in development, your lack of integrity trying to insult things clearly proves you know you are in the wrong. When ppl seriously post incorrect information easily refuted in 1 min its no doubt noone believes whats coming out your mouth.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2022-10-01 at 10:50 PM.
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  6. #6206
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I was making a speculative argument and you are free to disagree if you wish, yet you weren't merely disagreeing you were implying that proof is needed to sustain a claim.
    Proof is always need to prove a claim. Speculation doesn't change that. You don't know what his intent would have been if he was still alive. That is the point. It doesn't matter if it is speculation or factual. Both are the same. You are trying to speak for a dead guy on what he would do while restricting the evidence to only that which you think can't be refuted.

    I'm not sure why you keep asking me what I think when it hasn't changed and you just referenced what I think. It could go either way. Tolkien could not want to involve himself or he could be interested enough to write or critique a script for Rings of Power. You even say you agree factually as you did before yet you still can't stop arguing as well. Speculatively or Factually it is the same answer. Refusing to accept them as the same just shows how you have to keep arguing just to argue rather then accept that we are both in agreement. Just as you did the last time you said there is no evidence or concrete proof to speculate on which means it could go either way as there is nothing to prove either side. Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There is no concrete proof and evidence for the discussion of speculation
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    He sold film rights to the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit books and the appendices are included in the LOTR books. He never sold any rights to any appendices as justification for a television series covering the second age.
    And? He was still fine with people making adaptations of his work. You are only making a distinction between work to argue just for the sake of it. He was offering his work for adaptations before he sold the rights. It is clear that he likely wouldn't have cared about his work outside of his two books being used to make an adaptation. Those things being unpublished simply means he didn't finalize them into a first draft. Even his published work wasn't "final" as he even wanted to re-write the entirety of The Hobbit in 1960. He also used his unpublished work to explain things to fans in order to support the two books which further shows it is silly to exclude them for an arbitrary reason just because you, as a Tolkien fan, need to exclude them.
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  7. #6207
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    No the LOTR series sold 50 million by 2003, thats 2 years after the first movie, by 2007 the LOTR books had sold 150 million, do some basic research and you wont be embarrassed by incorrect information.

    The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

    What gives you the impression by the above information that 100 million copies were sold before the films, when it clearly states the series reached 150 million by 2007.

    SC has already been proven to be the best game of its genre and its still in development, your lack of integrity trying to insult things clearly proves you know you are in the wrong. When ppl seriously post incorrect information easily refuted in 1 min its no doubt noone believes whats coming out your mouth.
    I literally quoted the article you linked they sold 50 million after Jackson's films released along with another 50 mil of non lotr Tolkien books. Star Citizen is trash much like your attempts at arguing.

    Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001, plus 50 million copies of other Tolkien works.

  8. #6208
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Proof is always need to prove a claim. Speculation doesn't change that.
    And we both provided proof. If you disagree, then say so and move on.

    I've already said what I needed to regarding your own assertion and I clearly disagree.

    What more do you want to argue here? Stop trolling dude. Delusional, I swear.

  9. #6209
    The two sentences in question contradict each other. One says that 50 million were sold "up to 2003," and that another 100m were sold between 2003 and 2007, raising the total to 150m.

    The estimate by the publisher is that one third was sold AFTER the movie's release (in 2001), which explicitly infers 2/3rds sold before 2001, which would be 100m.

    Either way, either LOTR sold 100m or 50m before the films, and that makes it pretty popular. Drop the issue.


    As an aside, the cultural relevance of LOTR was huge in the 60s and 70s. Led Zeppelin, one of the biggest bands in the world, had multiple songs referencing or outright about LOTR.

  10. #6210
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And? He was still fine with people making adaptations of his work. You are only making a distinction between work to argue just for the sake of it. He was offering his work for adaptations before he sold the rights. It is clear that he likely wouldn't have cared about his work outside of his two books being used to make an adaptation. Those things being unpublished simply means he didn't finalize them into a first draft. Even his published work wasn't "final" as he even wanted to re-write the entirety of The Hobbit in 1960. He also used his unpublished work to explain things to fans in order to support the two books which further shows it is silly to exclude them for an arbitrary reason just because you, as a Tolkien fan, need to exclude them.
    You are making a false statement. He did not sell Amazon the TV series rights based on his appendices. That happened after he died by members of the Tolkien estate to make some money directly off the IP. His selling of the film rights for the books has absolutely nothing to do with this particular series because this was not something he was involved in. What you are doing is trying to conflate that with him selling the film rights to two books that were the only things he published before he died and the main story and IP that he cared about. Meaning he cared about having his stories as told in those books preserved intact as complete stories. Since the appendices are not a complete work or story he would absolutely not have sold them to make a television series that gives a studio free reign to make up a story of the 2nd age which he himself had not even finished writing in the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. This is why those works were unfinished and unpublished so to say that he intended them to be published is false because they weren't. And if he was going to allow a studio to make a TV series on that time period he would have likely written a more complete work set in the 2nd age in order to have a complete story that would be a reflection of his wishes for that age. What Amazon has is basically a narrow set of rights because the Salzance company and now Embracer group has all film rights to the Books and additionally a cut in any adaptations of the Silmarillion and Unfinished tales. So the rights that Amazon has are very limited in that they only basically have the rights to make up a story about the 2nd age based on what is in the appendices. Therefore they cannot tell a complete narrative that even ties into anything else because they don't have the rights. And I doubt very seriously that he would have agreed for such a project to begin with, because he didn't intend for the appendices to be a complete story in and of itself or for studios to be making up stories that contradict what he actually published.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-10-02 at 01:53 AM.

  11. #6211
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The two sentences in question contradict each other. One says that 50 million were sold "up to 2003," and that another 100m were sold between 2003 and 2007, raising the total to 150m.

    The estimate by the publisher is that one third was sold AFTER the movie's release (in 2001), which explicitly infers 2/3rds sold before 2001, which would be 100m.

    Either way, either LOTR sold 100m or 50m before the films, and that makes it pretty popular. Drop the issue.


    As an aside, the cultural relevance of LOTR was huge in the 60s and 70s. Led Zeppelin, one of the biggest bands in the world, had multiple songs referencing or outright about LOTR.
    The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

    Thanks partly to filmmaker Peter Jackson, the Tolkien brand has never been stronger. Fully one-third of the 150 million copies of The Lord of the Rings sold to date were purchased after the release of the first film in the series. And now gamers can look forward to the April 24 release of Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar. - this statement is from 2007.

    "That's just in the U.S.," Harper says. "Tolkien has been a cultural phenomenon for years. The Lord of the Rings has sold 50 million copies worldwide. But there's been nothing like the audience growth we've experienced coinciding with the new movies. I know of no other publishing experience like it." This statement from 2003

    So all the information proves that 50 million total sales of LOTR books were made by 2003 and the total only rose to 150 million by 2007, nowhere does it stated the sales were done before. Dont post incorrect information just because one article looks like they didnt word it properly, the 2003 article would of stated 150 million books sold wordwide otherwise.

    If the 150 mill sales were done by 2003 then why has no more books sold by 2007, do you believe no books sold in 4 years straight after the release of all films. Note the article mentions the 1/3rd was sold just after the first film, that means the rest happened up to 2007 from the other films in the series with no mention of before the films release.

    My origional statement still stands, that most of the success for LOTR series is due to the movies.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    I literally quoted the article you linked they sold 50 million after Jackson's films released along with another 50 mil of non lotr Tolkien books. Star Citizen is trash much like your attempts at arguing.

    Brawn estimates that 150 million copies of “The Lord of the Rings” have been sold worldwide, 50 million of those since Jackson’s films were released from 2001, plus 50 million copies of other Tolkien works.
    See above you are proven to be incorrect, multiple sources stating 50 million sold in 2003, a badly worded article does nothing for you.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2022-10-02 at 02:12 AM.
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  12. #6212
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    You are making a false statement.
    Where did I say JRR sold the rights to Amazon? You are again inventing an argument no one made. His own son, Christopher, sold the rights and used material of his fathers that he published and put together. I am not conflating anything. I am saying he was fine selling rights to his work. There is nothing to say he wouldn't have sold the rights to his supporting elements, even if unpublished, if asked. He never said "published book only" and it is a silly arbitrary line to use. He was constantly revising his story so all of his work was unfinished in his opinion which is why your line is arbitrary.

    It doesn't matter if unfinished work can't tell a complete narrative or not. Adaptations are not required to have a complete narrative to be adapted. You can doubt what a person you don't know would do all you want but that doesn't mean anything. Because you are just some fan and can't speak for Tolkien. The person that could speak for him, his son, is the one that courted buyers for the rights to a TV show.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And we both provided proof. If you disagree, then say so and move on.
    Okay. Why can't you say so and move on? Why is it that I'm constantly the one trolling when you keep insulting instead of discussing with civility? You haven't been clear what you actually want here. As you say you don't understand while saying you do. You say we agree but then say we don't agree. There are some things you need to figure out for yourself instead always going on a crusade because I've posted something.
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  13. #6213
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The books were published under a profit-sharing arrangement, whereby Tolkien would not receive an advance or royalties until the books had broken even, after which he would take a large share of the profits.[58] It has ultimately become one of the best-selling novels ever written, with 50 million copies sold by 2003[59] and over 150 million copies sold by 2007.[2] The work was published in the UK by Allen & Unwin until 1990, when the publisher and its assets were acquired by HarperCollins.[60][61]

    Thanks partly to filmmaker Peter Jackson, the Tolkien brand has never been stronger. Fully one-third of the 150 million copies of The Lord of the Rings sold to date were purchased after the release of the first film in the series. And now gamers can look forward to the April 24 release of Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar. - this statement is from 2007.

    "That's just in the U.S.," Harper says. "Tolkien has been a cultural phenomenon for years. The Lord of the Rings has sold 50 million copies worldwide. But there's been nothing like the audience growth we've experienced coinciding with the new movies. I know of no other publishing experience like it." This statement from 2003

    So all the information proves that 50 million total sales of LOTR books were made by 2003 and the total only rose to 150 million by 2007, nowhere does it stated the sales were done before. Dont post incorrect information just because one article looks like they didnt word it properly, the 2003 article would of stated 150 million books sold wordwide otherwise.

    If the 150 mill sales were done by 2003 then why has no more books sold by 2007, do you believe no books sold in 4 years straight after the release of all films. Note the article mentions the 1/3rd was sold just after the first film, that means the rest happened up to 2007 from the other films in the series with no mention of before the films release.

    My origional statement still stands, that most of the success for LOTR series is due to the movies.

    - - - Updated - - -



    See above you are proven to be incorrect, multiple sources stating 50 million sold in 2003, a badly worded article does nothing for you.
    You are wrong really don't know any easier way to state it than that. As Eschat said LoTR was hugely relevant with LZ referencing it multiple times and of course the Nimoy Bilbo song. Heck I grew up having it read to me my first memorized piece was Far Over Misty Mountains Cold from The Hobbit which I did for recitation in first grade. This would be before the movies.

    The bells were ringing in the dale
    And men looked up with faces pale
    The dragon's ire, more fierce than fire
    Laid low their towers and houses frail

    etc.

  14. #6214
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Okay. Why can't you say so and move on? Why is it that I'm constantly the one trolling when you keep insulting instead of discussing with civility? You haven't been clear what you actually want here. As you say you don't understand while saying you do. You say we agree but then say we don't agree. There are some things you need to figure out for yourself instead always going on a crusade because I've posted something.
    I think I told you I disagreed and said there was nothing left for you to argue multiple times now. If you didn't get the clue, you're just fucking trolling.

  15. #6215
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I think I told you I disagreed and said there was nothing left for you to argue multiple times now. If you didn't get the clue, you're just fucking trolling.
    I'm trying to have a civil conversation and its trolling? However the person that keeps insulting and not having a civil conversation is not? You have some weird grudge/fixation on me that every time I post you need to argue and insult. You slip in and out of that like Jekyll and Hyde. One moment having a civil conversation. The next insulting and not being able to let it go.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  16. #6216
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I'm trying to have a civil conversation and its trolling? .
    Nah dude, you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

    Don't hide behind civil conversation bullshit when you took a comment out of context and argued something for pages that you thought was some factual claim when it was clarified to you as being speculation all this time. You're all bad faith, my man.

    Civil or not, you were picking arguments where there was none and still looking to take anything to argue for the sake of it.

    We done here? You can have the last word.

  17. #6217
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Don't hide behind civil conversation bullshit when you took a comment out of context and argued something for pages that you thought was some factual claim when it was clarified to you as being speculation all this time.
    You are speculating using facts. It is the same conclusion. You willingly argued for pages as well and only turned to insults when you couldn't counter any longer. You are the one that can't stop and keeps posting just to insult and demean. Strange, right?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #6218
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I'm trying to have a civil conversation and its trolling? .
    You were never interested in having a conversation. You just despise hearing differing opinions and insist your opinion is some fucked up truth.

  19. #6219
    So I started the first episode, and the first things that strike me is how horrible the acting is. Music doesn't seem to fit that well, and I kinda don't get the feels.

    And I don't care about black or white people in tvshows, but that black nelf actor, is absolutely dogshit. He looks horrible, has one ugly ass facial expression and just doesn't fit anything. There are many great actors out there that are black that could've taken this role.
    But not only the black elf, gelandriel isn't really great either. It seems they found bad actors to save a penny or something. Such a huge disappointment.

  20. #6220
    Quote Originally Posted by cface View Post
    So I started the first episode, and the first things that strike me is how horrible the acting is. Music doesn't seem to fit that well, and I kinda don't get the feels.

    And I don't care about black or white people in tvshows, but that black nelf actor, is absolutely dogshit. He looks horrible, has one ugly ass facial expression and just doesn't fit anything. There are many great actors out there that are black that could've taken this role.
    But not only the black elf, gelandriel isn't really great either. It seems they found bad actors to save a penny or something. Such a huge disappointment.
    I curious where he gets his hair cut from, given all the other elves are supposed to have long flowing hair that is rarely, if ever, cut. They should have given him a wig.

    So much of this show looks like "we tried to save money", which is so strange given how much they spent on CGI sets and how expensive the show is supposed to be. Where did all the other money go?

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