Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Ihavewaffles]

Jesus christ this is such pig puke...so the magic sword is just a key, would just have worked with a regular key n wasn't mt.duum already a thing in the story??

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I curious where he gets his hair cut from, given all the other elves are supposed to have long flowing hair that is rarely, if ever, cut. They should have given him a wig.

So much of this show looks like "we tried to save money", which is so strange given how much they spent on CGI sets and how expensive the show is supposed to be. Where did all the other money go?

I think they lied about spending 1b, prob to get some tax cut when claiming to spend such a nice round number..They prob spent less than half that.

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So I started the first episode, and the first things that strike me is how horrible the acting is. Music doesn't seem to fit that well, and I kinda don't get the feels.

And I don't care about black or white people in tvshows, but that black nelf actor, is absolutely dogshit. He looks horrible, has one ugly ass facial expression and just doesn't fit anything. There are many great actors out there that are black that could've taken this role.
But not only the black elf, gelandriel isn't really great either. It seems they found bad actors to save a penny or something. Such a huge disappointment.

Yeah that 'elf' has the charisma of Guy'lad'riel...none.

Black dwarf though woke token casting did a good job, well all dwarves did, they should have done a show about them instead of shampoo elves..

Or a smaller show of harfoots

Don't care about humans n elves, they can all go die in a fire..

[DarkAmbient]

It is true that Arondir has one facial expression with a couple of subtle variations. Galadriel switches between indignant and wheeee I'm on a horse!

[InfiniteCharger]

Where did I say JRR sold the rights to Amazon? You are again inventing an argument no one made. His own son, Christopher, sold the rights and used material of his fathers that he published and put together. I am not conflating anything. I am saying he was fine selling rights to his work. There is nothing to say he wouldn't have sold the rights to his supporting elements, even if unpublished, if asked. He never said "published book only" and it is a silly arbitrary line to use. He was constantly revising his story so all of his work was unfinished in his opinion which is why your line is arbitrary.

It doesn't matter if unfinished work can't tell a complete narrative or not. Adaptations are not required to have a complete narrative to be adapted. You can doubt what a person you don't know would do all you want but that doesn't mean anything. Because you are just some fan and can't speak for Tolkien. The person that could speak for him, his son, is the one that courted buyers for the rights to a TV show.

He didn't sell the rights to ANYBODY for a story of the 2nd age because he never wrote a complete story of the second age. That is the point. The only complete stories he wrote were the Hobbit and LOTR and those are what he sold the rights for. Therefore to argue that he intended for anything other than that is just you making up stuff. He never intended the appendices to be used as the basis for the 2nd age because he never published them separately nor did he write or publish any complete story of the second age, nor did he publish the Silmarillion, his notes or the Unfinished Tales. That means they were not ready for public consumption as he was still developing his ideas and therefore did not publish them. So you cannot include those things as something he intended to be made into films because they were never published by him before he died. That is the point. You keep trying to ignore those facts by claiming that he intended the books he did publish like LOTR to have the appendices taken and used as justification for someone making up a story of the 2nd age which he himself had never completed. That is illogical. Just accept he fact that these things only happened because of other people in the Tolkien estate and not because of Tolkien himself is my point and does not reflect his wishes.

The crux of the issue is the entire story of Arda and middle earth through all of the ages is the work of one man and one man's imagination. That was his life's work which he dedicated himself to and protected with a passion. If anything, he intended that entire story to be considered as a whole and not broken up piecemeal into different competing interpretations from various studios and creators. It should be obvious from any and all interviews with the man that this is what his views were on the topic. Now, that said, it does not mean that someone cannot take up the task of trying to flesh out that world but that depends on the Tolkien Estate to steward and manage such productions in such a way that they try to make an "official" adaptation of the work in such a way that all the parts add up to a whole even if they aren't 100% true to everything Tolkien wrote. But that is not what is happening with this TV series, where they literally just gave Amazon the rights to make up a completely alternate story on the 2nd age that does not match with what Tolkien even wrote in the appendices. And that is basically the fault of the Tolkien Estate as they are the ones who came up with the idea in the first place. The fact that Amazon took on this idea without realizing the tremendous risk is purely on Amazon but it isn't their job to protect Tolkien's legacy.

[Celement]

I think now that the dust is settling one question remains. How many pity seasons are they going to give this show like they are currently doing with wheel of time to hide the fact it's an embarrassing flop?

[Ghost of Cow]

I think now that the dust is settling one question remains. How many pity seasons are they going to give this show like they are currently doing with wheel of time to hide the fact it's an embarrassing flop?

That seems like a silly concept. Businesses aren't in the habit of keeping costly products around just to make it look like they're profitable or something.

[rhorle]

I curious where he gets his hair cut from, given all the other elves are supposed to have long flowing hair that is rarely, if ever, cut. They should have given him a wig.

Tolkien never stated all elves have long hair. He only described the length of hair on certain elves. It is just a general fantasy trope that Elves have to have long hair. Tolkien even had elves with beards (when they entered their "third cycle" or the few others that aged that way earlier). Jackson also helped the "All elves have long hair" things.

[hulkgor]

"Pity seasons", geez.

Seriously curious to see what's the next silly thing popping up on this thread.

[Specialka]

Tolkien never stated all elves have long hair. He only described the length of hair on certain elves. It is just a general fantasy trope that Elves have to have long hair. Tolkien even had elves with beards (when they entered their "third cycle" or the few others that aged that way earlier). Jackson also helped the "All elves have long hair" things.

Did Tolkien ever describe Elves going to the toilet ? If not, can we assume they do not need to go to the toilet ?

[Kumorii]

Did Tolkien ever describe Elves going to the toilet ? If not, can we assume they do not need to go to the toilet ?

I mean, even if he did write about a elf needing to relieve themselves. It could just be that specific elf too.

[rhorle]

He didn't sell the rights to ANYBODY for a story of the 2nd age because he never wrote a complete story of the second age.

Right. That still doesn't mean he wouldn't have because he sold rights to his other works. Those rights also included "limited matching rights" if his other work was ever brought to screen. He was fine with his story being drastically changed because the rights didn't require X rules for adaptations. The only one making stuff up here is yourself because you are trying to definitively state what Tolkien would do. I have repeatedly say there is nothing to indicate either way what he would do. While you, and others, keep trying to state that he wouldn't have done something. Do you understand the difference?

He didn't intend the entire story to be a whole because he didn't have the entire story finished. Again he wanted to re-write the hobbit to better fit the world of Lord of the Rings. He was constantly changing his world where he wanted to make the world no longer flat. So he was fine with the story being piecemeal because that is how he wrote and how he considered his own work. He wrote things in pieces and went back and fixed or changed things as needed for those new pieces to fit.

Also lol at you interjecting "it's not canon" into this discussion as well. You really can't seem to digest that part so it is always being regurgitated. I'm also pretty sure Amazon knew the risks they were taking and I'm pretty sure Christopher Tolkien new more about protecting his fathers legacy then some random upset fan on a forum.

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I think now that the dust is settling one question remains. How many pity seasons are they going to give this show like they are currently doing with wheel of time to hide the fact it's an embarrassing flop?

The show will have 5 seasons. It has is currently successful and popular so calling it "pity" just because you don't' like the show is silly.

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Did Tolkien ever describe Elves going to the toilet ? If not, can we assume they do not need to go to the toilet ?

Doesn't that also mean that we can assume Elves had barbers and might sometimes cut their hair shorter? That wasn't the zinger you imagined it to be lol.

[Specialka]

Right. That still doesn't mean he wouldn't have because he sold rights to his other works. Those rights also included "limited matching rights" if his other work was ever brought to screen. He was fine with his story being drastically changed because the rights didn't require X rules for adaptations. The only one making stuff up here is yourself because you are trying to definitively state what Tolkien would do. I have repeatedly say there is nothing to indicate either way what he would do. While you, and others, keep trying to state that he wouldn't have done something. Do you understand the difference?

He didn't intend the entire story to be a whole because he didn't have the entire story finished. Again he wanted to re-write the hobbit to better fit the world of Lord of the Rings. He was constantly changing his world where he wanted to make the world no longer flat. So he was fine with the story being piecemeal because that is how he wrote and how he considered his own work. He wrote things in pieces and went back and fixed or changed things as needed for those new pieces to fit.

Also lol at you interjecting "it's not canon" into this discussion as well. You really can't seem to digest that part so it is always being regurgitated. I'm also pretty sure Amazon knew the risks they were taking and I'm pretty sure Christopher Tolkien new more about protecting his fathers legacy then some random upset fan on a forum.

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The show will have 5 seasons. It has is currently successful and popular so calling it "pity" just because you don't' like the show is silly.

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Doesn't that also mean that we can assume Elves had barbers and might sometimes cut their hair shorter? That wasn't the zinger you imagined it to be lol.

It totally was but you just missed the point (not surprised about that though). And as for their hair, it probably is that they do not need to cut them as they would probably grow very slowly as the Elves do overall.

[Celement]

That seems like a silly concept. Businesses aren't in the habit of keeping costly products around just to make it look like they're profitable or something.

Star trek and wheel of time beg to differ.

[rhorle]

It totally was but you just missed the point (not surprised about that though). And as for their hair, it probably is that they do not need to cut them as they would probably grow very slowly as the Elves do overall.

I didn't miss the point. If we can assume they go to the bathroom we can assume they have barbers that can cut their hair short, right? Wouldn't that mean that Elves would have short hair when younger and only have long hair when older? So short hair elves would be a thing? What age do they get their long hair? Does it just magically sprout into being at puberty (age 15), when they get their adult height (age 50) or when they are full grown ( age 100+)?

What is Elven hair made of? Could an orc scalp an elf and use it in place of rope? As according to you we can't assume the hair can be cut so it must be super strong? Or is it simply that Elves can cut their hair and Tolkien never wrote about hair styles and trends that we can assume existed in their culture?

[kenn9530]

You are wrong really don't know any easier way to state it than that. As Eschat said LoTR was hugely relevant with LZ referencing it multiple times and of course the Nimoy Bilbo song. Heck I grew up having it read to me my first memorized piece was Far Over Misty Mountains Cold from The Hobbit which I did for recitation in first grade. This would be before the movies.

The bells were ringing in the dale
And men looked up with faces pale
The dragon's ire, more fierce than fire
Laid low their towers and houses frail

etc.

Wrong about what, im not wrong about the numbers or that the films are what actually propelled people to actually buy the books since most of the book sales happened after the first film, so the films are what made LOTRs so popular and without them they would only be know to people who like books, so its been you who was wrong abou the numbers and the main reason why its successful.

The TV series is successful regardless of what you think.

[InfiniteCharger]

Right. That still doesn't mean he wouldn't have because he sold rights to his other works. Those rights also included "limited matching rights" if his other work was ever brought to screen. He was fine with his story being drastically changed because the rights didn't require X rules for adaptations. The only one making stuff up here is yourself because you are trying to definitively state what Tolkien would do. I have repeatedly say there is nothing to indicate either way what he would do. While you, and others, keep trying to state that he wouldn't have done something. Do you understand the difference?

He didn't intend the entire story to be a whole because he didn't have the entire story finished. Again he wanted to re-write the hobbit to better fit the world of Lord of the Rings. He was constantly changing his world where he wanted to make the world no longer flat. So he was fine with the story being piecemeal because that is how he wrote and how he considered his own work. He wrote things in pieces and went back and fixed or changed things as needed for those new pieces to fit.

Also lol at you interjecting "it's not canon" into this discussion as well. You really can't seem to digest that part so it is always being regurgitated. I'm also pretty sure Amazon knew the risks they were taking and I'm pretty sure Christopher Tolkien new more about protecting his fathers legacy then some random upset fan on a forum.

You are going in circles and just denying the simple facts as I mentioned. And those facts are that he did not intend for the appendices by themselves to be the complete story of the second age or to be sold separately as the basis for some studio making a story of the 2nd age. None of those things happened when he was alive. I heard you the first time and you just keep repeating your invalid statement. Him selling the book rights for Lord of The Rings and The Hobbit does not mean intended and would approve of the appendices to be sold separately as the basis for a story of the second age. If anything he would have had to finish his full legendarium before he died and published them before even thinking about giving someone the rights to adapt that story. And this is where you keep using that invalid argument that selling the rights to LOTR and the Hobbit, which were full complete books, meant he would be OK with making a story of the 2nd age based on partial or incomplete notes and appendices. That is absolute nonsense. And you are absolutely making up something because there are no facts to back it up. If the rights he sold were all that were required, then the Tolkien Estate would not have had to found a loop hole in order to create the basis for this series to begin with. Using a loophole to justify this series means, by definition, this was not something that was covered in the original rights sold to United Artists by Tolkien. Which contradicts everything you are saying.

The only way canon comes into this is in the fact that only Tolkien had the ability to make new canon in the world of Arda. And nowhere has the Tolkien estate ever authorized any writer or artist to come up with a new extension to Tolkien's canon. Therefore for the foreseeable future, no studio, author or artist can make canon stories in Tolkien's world. And if they did do so, it would start as a written work, not as a film or television show. At best the only thing these rights are allowing these companies to do is interpretations of possible stories that could have occurred in Tolkien's world, starting with the books he published and extending to other ages for which he left much less written information. That is a simple fact regardless of who has the rights to make a film or television show in the Tolkien universe, because Tolkien's work and copyrights are primarily for his books and that is the primary source of the story for his world and will remain that way for perpetuity. Movies based on those and anything else will be purely for the purposes of visualizing these works on the screen and entertainment value but not for the purposes of actually expanding the canon unless the Tolkien estate explicitly deems it as such. But generally film rights to an existing work by authors long dead are hardly ever seen as 'canon' to the original work and at best become their own separate world which becomes a separate canon unto itself. However, given the fact that this is one of the best selling works of literary fiction of all time, it is quite unlikely that any of these attempts to bring Tolkien to the screen will ever surpass the books as the source of the actual canon story in the minds of most audiences.


All you are trying to do in bringing up this point about canon is to try and muddy the waters, which is what Amazon has been doing by marketing this show as a prequel to LOTR. This series is not a literal cannon prequel to LOTR, and Amazon themselves state otherwise, even though they tried to mislead people into thinking it was. And it cannot be because they don't have the rights, which goes back to the fact that the existence of these rights come from a loophole and not from anything authorized by Tolkien himself.

[rhorle]

You are going in circles and just denying the simple facts as I mentioned. And those facts are that he did not intend for the appendices by themselves to be the complete story of the second age or to be sold separately as the basis for some studio making a story of the 2nd age.

But they aren't the complete story even now. If he didn't include them in his first sale of rights then obviously they were intended to potentially be sold separately, right? Otherwise wouldn't they have been sold with the other rights? The only one going in circles here is yourself. You keep repeating the same thing and bring up other things that are not relevant.

Limited matching rights exist for his other work. It was either included in the original sale or included in 1976. The information is unclear on that but rights to the other work have existed since at least 1976 if not earlier. He didn't think of his work as "finished once published" which is what you keep ignoring as well. I am not making things up. Everything I have said is backed by his opinions and actions.

The rights to a limited TV series were not part of the original deal which has nothing to do with "unpublished work". You even indicate, with that argument, that rights to some of his unpublished works were previously sold if Amazon couldn't buy the rights to use all that "unpublished work", right? Lmao.

[Ealyssa]

I think now that the dust is settling one question remains. How many pity seasons are they going to give this show like they are currently doing with wheel of time to hide the fact it's an embarrassing flop?

"ItS a fLoP BeKauZ I sAy So"

God you're cringe. Amazon isn't in the business of keeping things that don't work.

[kenn9530]

I think now that the dust is settling one question remains. How many pity seasons are they going to give this show like they are currently doing with wheel of time to hide the fact it's an embarrassing flop?

You clearly dont understand what a flop is or not, more ppl like the show than dont like it, so your personal feelings dont actually matter.

[InfiniteCharger]

But they aren't the complete story even now. If he didn't include them in his first sale of rights then obviously they were intended to potentially be sold separately, right? Otherwise wouldn't they have been sold with the other rights? The only one going in circles here is yourself. You keep repeating the same thing and bring up other things that are not relevant.

Limited matching rights exist for his other work. It was either included in the original sale or included in 1976. The information is unclear on that but rights to the other work have existed since at least 1976 if not earlier. He didn't think of his work as "finished once published" which is what you keep ignoring as well. I am not making things up. Everything I have said is backed by his opinions and actions.

The rights to a limited TV series were not part of the original deal which has nothing to do with "unpublished work". You even indicate, with that argument, that rights to some of his unpublished works were previously sold if Amazon couldn't buy the rights to use all that "unpublished work", right? Lmao.

Tolkien sold the rights for the two complete stories he published before he died. That's it. Those are the simple facts and there is nothing really else to say. Anything else took place after he died and has absolutely nothing to do with what the man authorized or intended. That is a simple as it gets and there is nothing complex about it. Those incomplete works were never published before he died, so the fact that they are unfinished is irrelevant to the point that they were never covered in anything he actually sold the rights to. If that wasn't the case then they would not have had to find a loophole for the creation of this series. Everything else you are bringing up is not changing those facts.

And note this has absolutely nothing to do with whether I may or may not like any specific incarnation of any movie or film interpretation of his work whether or not it is canon. That is purely a separate issue.

[Triceron]

So after rewatching this episode, I think I've come to the conclusion that the entire Elf Watchtower and Arondir parts could be omitted completely, and the story would still work.

Arondir seems to have no real lasting ties to the main plot whatsoever. The show wants to present him as a main character, but he's got no real ties to anything related to the main plot. Everything would still happen if it were literally an abandoned watchtower that the Humans sought refuge in. Even his interactions with Adar were merely a means to an end, with most of Adar's characterization really shining with Galadriel's interrogation more than anything we got out of Arondir's encounter.

I don't have anything against Arondir's character or the Elves being in the Southlands, but in retrospect of what we've seen now, it all seems like Peter Jackson's Tauriel and Radagast filler in the Hobbit. Like, just adding characters to fill time and space who don't really contribute to the main plot. Like, what does Arondir really contribute other than being given a cool moment at the watchtower which doesn't really phase the Orc attack on the village at all.

If they cut out the entire Southland Elves and just focused on the Human arc, we could have saved an episode and a half.