1. #6261
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    There's no other way do defend it, is there.
    Then don't. You can't exactly defend against opinions either.

    Feel free to disagree and move on.

    Thing is, I'd also like to know.
    You are the one who said 'Of course you have a grudge' right?

    So tell me how you've come to this conclusion. How am I holding a grudge against this character? Because I'm pointing out observations of the story and how this character fits into it?

    No, bad writing is not completely subjective (if it is, it makes literary studies one big hoax).
    Yes but the context of my use of 'Bad writing' is subjective. It doesn't make my statement objective just because you think Literary studies is legitimate. That would be taking my comments out of context.

    Why wouldn't my arguments be subjective? Do you really think Rings of Power being badly written is objective fact because I said so?

    If you can regard the use of 'bad writing' as potentially being subjective, then I don't see how my use of the terminology is wrong. Especially if I'm using it in a way that's just easier than saying 'Flawed in way that is well below my personal standards and expectations of what Good writing should be'. If I somehow misled you into thinking otherwise then I apologize for the misunderstanding.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 04:01 PM.

  2. #6262
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You are the one who said 'Of course you have a grudge' right?
    So tell mehow you've come to this conclusion. How am I holding a grudge against this character? Because I'm pointing out observations of the story and how this character fits into it?
    Once again, calling a character a Chekhov's gun after two or three episodes is not merely an opinion, because something being or not being a Chekhov's gun is not a matter of opinion. Surely you must understand it, as you must understand that there is no point in making such accusation so early in the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes but the context of my use of 'Bad writing' is subjective. It doesn't make my statement objective just because you think Literary studies is legitimate. That would be taking my comments out of context.
    Why wouldn't my arguments be subjective? Do you really think Rings of Power being badly written is objective fact because I said so?
    If you can regard the use of 'bad writing' as potentially being subjective, then I don't see how my use of the terminology is wrong. Especially if I'm using it in a way that's just easier than saying 'Flawed in way that I find unpleasing to my particular tastes in writing'
    Your subjective argument that Arondir should be introduced in season 2 by the way of flashbacks is objectively bad in terms of principal rules of writing. I've already explained why.

  3. #6263
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Once again, calling a character a Chekhov's gun after two or three episodes is not merely an opinion, because something being or not being a Chekhov's gun is not a matter of opinion. Surely you must understand it, as you must understand that there is no point in making such accusation so early in the story.
    I never called this character 'Chekhov's gun' so I'm not sure where you're drawing this argument from.

    Your subjective argument that Arondir should be introduced in season 2 by the way of flashbacks is objectively bad in terms of principal rules of writing. I've already explained why.
    I didn't say he should. I said that's one possibility that could happen if their intention is to introduce this character as being important to the plot, while having a backstory that is integral to the Southlands. Otherwise flashbacks wouldn't even be needed, since they introduced Halbrand the exact same way without having any flashbacks to establish his character. He's just from the Southlands and has a grudge against Orcs and that's it. The story moves ahead from there with him now being potential 'King of the Southlands'.

    For example, imagine if they dedicated multiple episodes to establishing Halbrand's escape from Southlands before he's even out in the sea. Would this be necessary to understanding Halbrand's character? I would say that the exposition we have right now is more than enough to establish him and what we need to know about him. I think it would detrimental to dedicate scenes to flesh out Halbrand's backstory in the first 4 episodes, considering we already had too many POV's to follow.

    My argument for Arondir's omission is (IMO) based on his entire arc being an unnecessary supporting subplot for Galadriel's eventual return to Middle Earth. And I think he could be introduced in S2 in a more prominent position without having his presence in S1 be necessary to establishing his character. Based on what we've seen so far, I'm not all convinced that I needed to follow his journey to understand the meat and potatoes of Season 1, and I think it could have been cut completely because it's effectively filler. It was decent world building getting to see the tunnels or his interactions with Theo, but I don't think they're really necessary to the overall plot of the story so far. It might be building towards something more in the future, but I can't comment on that until we see how that rolls out. By and large, I think having him freshly introduced in S2 would serve the same purpose more or less, considering I personally find little merit in his romantic subplot or the prisoner scenes or him actually convincing Theo to be good.

    And flashbacks are not 'objectively bad in terms of principal writing', only your own subjective value for such. They literally have Galadriel flashbacks as a child in the first episode to establish her backstory in the first 10 minutes of the show, would you call this 'objectively bad in terms of principal rules of writing'? Would you call Gollum's Smeagol flashbacks at the beginning of The Two Towers to be objectively bad as well?

    Just say you disagree dude, it's not hard. Otherwise I'm debunking this entire argument as one big double standard.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 04:35 PM.

  4. #6264
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I never called this character 'Chekhov's gun' so I'm not sure where you're drawing this argument from.
    So you did force me to look it up and indeed, it was the Elven presence being a Chekhov's gun. But since you're past that, lets just let it rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There is no 'objectively bad in terms of principal writing', only your own subjective value for such.
    There is, and you can always say you disagree.

  5. #6265
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    There is, and you can always say you disagree.
    Before I disagree, are you saying all flashbacks are objectively bad?

    And you would say definitively that Rings of Power is objectively bad for having Galadriel flashbacks in the first 10 minutes of the first episode, as well as the Two Towers with the Smeagol flashbacks?

    If you are saying this, then yes I absolutely 100% disagree.

  6. #6266
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Don't bother. He will argue that black is white even when he has already posted evidence to the contrary. He's spent years defending Star Citizen, that's all you need to know.
    You have been proven you were wrong simple as that, all the information backs me just because you cant admit you were completely wrong, just goes to show what lack of integrity you have. You have no evidence backing you, even the one single article doesnt back you up but several articles of information back my information up.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  7. #6267
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Before I disagree, are you saying all flashbacks are objectively bad?
    And you would say definitively that Rings of Power is objectively bad for having Galadriel flashbacks in the first 10 minutes of the first episode, as well as the Two Towers with the Smeagol flashbacks?
    If you are saying this, then yes I absolutely 100% disagree.
    I've already said it in a post you've ignored or omitted. I never said flashbacks are bad; flashbacks have plenty of uses. I've said that introducing a main character late into the story by the way of flashbacks is bad. It's on the previous page.

  8. #6268
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    I've already said it in a post you've ignored or omitted. I never said flashbacks are bad; flashbacks have plenty of uses. I've said that introducing a main character late into the story by the way of flashbacks is bad. It's on the previous page.
    What does that even mean? There is no objective literary standard for defining such a thing.

    Can you give an example of any characters in fiction that were introduced this way that are considered objectively bad?



    And I'm not saying that he needs to be introduced through flashbacks, I said he could be introduced as a new character for Season 2, with his connections to the Southlands being revealed in flashbacks. For example, use the Prison scenes in the tunnels and first meeting Adar as a means of giving Arondir depth to his actions and motivations.

    Gollum had flashback scenes in the beginning of Return of the King through Smeagol flashbacks the same way to build on his character progression and backstory.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 05:04 PM.

  9. #6269
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There is no objective literary standard for defining such a thing.
    It is common advice for novice writers to avoid using flashbacks. A flashback should be used to offer context and development of existing things. A main character should already be introduced prior to a flashback. The flashback should be offering context about the "present day". While there is no governing body writing laws on the subject there are still standards of writing.
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  10. #6270
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is common advice for novice writers to avoid using flashbacks. A flashback should be used to offer context and development of existing things. A main character should already be introduced prior to a flashback. The flashback should be offering context about the "present day". While there is no governing body writing laws on the subject there are still standards of writing.
    Yeah totally agree. And I never intended to put that message across.

    To be honest I re-read my message and see where the misunderstanding lies.

    and introduce a more prominent Arondir character for S2 with some flashback scenes for context

    I should have put a comma after 'introduce a more prominent Arondir character for S2'. I'll own up to this misunderstanding as my bad.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 05:10 PM.

  11. #6271
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Again, if you do, I 100% disagree.
    That's fine, we've already established it's 100% ok to disagree (not that it required any establishing). And no, I won't be giving examples; I'm really not THAT invested in this thread, nor I wish to be. But shortly on topic of flashbacks, yes, in general, introducing main character late by the way of flashbacks IS, most of the time, a bad (or very bad) idea. It's a widely accepted consensus that flashbacks should be used only when absolutely necessary (and when it moves the plot forward - not only the flashback story, but also the "act of flashbacking", so to speak ). Therefore, it's rather difficult to build a detailed backstory of a main character by a way of flashbacks if you introduce him/her late. You can argue that Arondir doesn't need much of a backstory anyway, but that's conjecture. We don't know, and I personally enjoy his arc.

  12. #6272
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    That's fine, we've already established it's 100% ok to disagree (not that it required any establishing). And no, I won't be giving examples; I'm really not THAT invested in this thread, nor I wish to be. But shortly on topic of flashbacks, yes, in general, introducing main character late by the way of flashbacks IS, most of the time, a bad (or very bad) idea. It's a widely accepted consensus that flashbacks should be used only when absolutely necessary (and when it moves the plot forward - not only the flashback story, but also the "act of flashbacking", so to speak ). Therefore, it's rather difficult to build a detailed backstory of a main character by a way of flashbacks if you introduce him/her late. You can argue that Arondir doesn't need much of a backstory anyway, but that's conjecture. We don't know, and I personally enjoy his arc.
    I'll say I re-read my original statement and want to clarify that it should have read as such:

    and introduce a more prominent Arondir character for S2, with some flashback scenes for context

    If Arondir is meant to be an important character in the upcoming seasons, then my point is they could still introduce him starting at S2 while still having his current (S1) backstory in tact through means of flashback scenes dedicated to showing key ties to the Southlands and the Watchtower. Otherwise, mere exposition does the same job, as I've explained with Halbrand. I'm not invested in the example either, I just want to clarify my original message.

    For example it would be introducing a more dour and veteran Arondir character for S2 (who's been through some shit) who is now leading a group of Silvan Elves that's returned to the Southlands. And to build on his motivations and connections to the Southlands, in one of the later episodes we have a flashback sequence of him in the prison tunnels with Adar or watching his fellow Elves being slaughtered. That's it. I think that would suffice instead of having an entire season dedicated to his character, which IMO hasn't really developed all that much or added much to the show.

    He's a fun character, don't get me wrong, but I don't see him necessary to the plot. And the first 4 episode's pacing is so awkward and bloated that I would definitely stand by my opinion that I think certain story elements or entire POV arcs could be cut or condensed down with editing.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 05:24 PM.

  13. #6273
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'll say I re-read my original statement and want to clarify that it should have read as such:

    and introduce a more prominent Arondir character for S2, with some flashback scenes for context

    If Arondir is meant to be an important character in the upcoming seasons, then my point is they could still introduce him starting at S2 while still having his current backstory relevance in tact through means of flashback scenes dedicated to showing key ties to the Southlands and the Watchtower. Otherwise, mere exposition does the same job, as I've explained with Halbrand. I'm not invested in the example either, I just want to clarify my original message.
    One can always argue that since those flashbacks won't be necessary for s2, it will make for a better season :P And since they had to introduce the Southlands plot anyway, having Arondir there doesn't hurt. As you've said yourself, with or without him, it would be a similar story (so not much would change in terms of pacing), but at least for s2, he will be fleshed out and the flow of s2 won't have to be interrupted. Tadaaa!

  14. #6274
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    One can always argue that since those flashbacks won't be necessary for s2, it will make for a better season :P And since they had to introduce the Southlands plot anyway, having Arondir there doesn't hurt. As you've said yourself, with or without him, it would be a similar story (so not much would change in terms of pacing), but at least for s2, he will be fleshed out and the flow of s2 won't have to be interrupted. Tadaaa!
    The real question though is if nobody is watching S2 who is going to care about his increased role? The show appears to be getting worse ratings every episode and is likely hemorrhaging viewers. I don't they can pull off the absolute awfulness of rafe of time's "finale" but we will see.

  15. #6275
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    One can always argue that since those flashbacks won't be necessary for s2, it will make for a better season :P And since they had to introduce the Southlands plot anyway, having Arondir there doesn't hurt. As you've said yourself, with or without him, it would be a similar story (so not much would change in terms of pacing), but at least for s2, he will be fleshed out and the flow of s2 won't have to be interrupted. Tadaaa!
    I'd agree all except the point of pacing.

    My entire point is that the pacing could improve with the omission of the entire Watchtower Elves and Watchtower subplot. It would increase the pace which we get the plot moved forward in the first 5 episodes if chunks were edited out or condensed down into say just 2-3 episodes, and have the brunt of it focused on Galadriel's plotline instead (which I regard is the main plot of the series even though I find it bland and uninteresting).

    Arguably, cutting the Harfoot arc entirely might be even better for the pacing, but I wouldn't go out of my way to make that conclusion yet considering the entire Stranger subplot is still steeped in mystery. I can say this about Arondir and the Watchtower Elves because for the most part, the entire arc was fairly predictable in how it was going to eventually intertwine with Galadriel's arc (especially if you followed Teaser footage). I don't think my assessment was wrong about the Watchtower being a contrived setting that ended up being less relevant to the overall plot than it should have been. Again, stuff we already went over so I will refrain from beating a dead horse.

  16. #6276
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If Arondir is meant to be an important character in the upcoming seasons, then my point is they could still introduce him starting at S2 while still having his current (S1) backstory in tact through means of flashback scenes dedicated to showing key ties to the Southlands and the Watchtower. .
    Functionally that is no different then what they did so far. They just incorporated any flashback into the "present day" story because it aligned with what they were telling at the time. Later flashbacks would need to set up proper context for why it is important to show where as "present day" doesn't need any setup because it flows naturally as part of the story. Talking to Adar, watching his elves be slaughtered would just be filler. It doesn't offer much character development that is related to "Coming back to fight evil". We already know that the elves oppose "evil" that it doesn't need to be set up, right? Wouldn't those flashbacks be a chekov's gun scenario?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    The real question though is if nobody is watching S2 who is going to care about his increased role? The show appears to be getting worse ratings every episode and is likely hemorrhaging viewers. I don't they can pull off the absolute awfulness of rafe of time's "finale" but we will see.
    The highest rated episode is the last one. People will watch Season 2.

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv...-2-1235233124/

    A new article is out that has some insight to a few things. It even claims that Amazon paid less then $250 million and that price tag was the offer from Netflix. The Tolkien Estate didn't like how Netflix was going to go a MCU route.
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  17. #6277
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Functionally that is no different then what they did so far. They just incorporated any flashback into the "present day" story because it aligned with what they were telling at the time. Later flashbacks would need to set up proper context for why it is important to show where as "present day" doesn't need any setup because it flows naturally as part of the story. Talking to Adar, watching his elves be slaughtered would just be filler. It doesn't offer much character development that is related to "Coming back to fight evil". We already know that the elves oppose "evil" that it doesn't need to be set up, right? Wouldn't those flashbacks be a chekov's gun scenario?
    The thing about it is pacing.

    S1's first 4-5 episodes are mired by too many POV plotlines to follow and having too much of the focus spread around. My opinion is that it could all be trimmed down for the sake of getting to the point of the main plot - that of Galadriel's storyline and the eventual eruption of Mount Doom.

    If the Watchtower (and Watchtower Elves) in S1 is really necessary for future events, then I'm saying keep what's necessary and merely present it in flashback form. Otherwise, trim the fat. Did we need the entire Watchtower subplot for Mount Doom to erupt? I would argue that it wasn't necessary because they did a poor job of setting it up for the payoff narratively; there was a massive disconnect between having a Watchtower there in the Southlands and knowing that it was the 'key' to making Mount Doom erupt. I'll even go as far as saying I didn't even know the Traitor was at the ruins of the watchtower when he 'turned the key', I only realized it upon repeat viewings. I still don't fully understand the connection between the Watchtower and Mount Doom, like why is this ultimate plan even seeded in this Elven watchtower? The show certainly hasn't explained it prior to it happening.

    And like I said, if we all regard talking to Adar is just filler in the context of S2 which already moves past it, then yeah, cut it entirely. I say this in the context of 6 eps so far, since I still don't know what they plan to do to conclude Arondir's interactions with Adar. In my opinion, we got what we needed out of Adar through Galadriel's interrogation scene (which was brilliant, btw).

    I'll be just as fine if Arondir were introduced in S2 the same way Halbrand was introduced in S1. Just there, given a present context to the fight against evil, given a brief backstory through exposition, and otherwise everything moves forward with his connections to the main plot. No filler please.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-10-05 at 05:52 PM.

  18. #6278
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    So they killed her? Elves are just as killable as humans, so a volcano would kill her right?

    I assume she did that to save the people who were fleeing in some way to protect them from the exploding volcano and died to save the lives of others?

    So she's dead? They are moving on to a new protagonist?
    Nope. Galadriel is too badass to die like that. She's going to straight up tank all that volcano fire blasts while standing still, and it's going to look awesooome!

  19. #6279
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You have been proven you were wrong simple as that, all the information backs me just because you cant admit you were completely wrong, just goes to show what lack of integrity you have. You have no evidence backing you, even the one single article doesnt back you up but several articles of information back my information up.
    Which information ? Which evidence ? Dribbles's level evidences ?

  20. #6280
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The thing about it is pacing.
    Right. Why interrupt the pacing of Season 2 with flashbacks that hold little relevance when you can attach it to Season 1 with little impact on pacing? The Watchtower and it's elves is increasing the scope of what we are talking about. The Watchtower isn't Elven. It was an existing structure that the elves repurposed. Hence why it had a Sauron related imagery that the Elves let vines cover up. The show didn't need to explain Sauron's plan prior to. This is again an instance of you saying filler is required while at the same time saying that filler is not required. It shows a grudge against Arondir that anything to do with him is filler you don't want. While things like Sauron's plan need to have filler. Or Halbrand doesn't need filler (even Arondir if introduced the same).

    We saw the effects of the plan of Sauron. Trenches and tunnels dug. A key hidden by generations of once servants. A tower with a hidden purpose. It explained all that is needed.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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