Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

Hot dwarves are a stretch but maybe not entirely unbelievable. Maybe, lol. The dwarf/elf romance was lore-breaking IIRC, and just one of many reasons why the Hobbit films sucked. But I don't believe it was done to make a point about real life interracial relationships, and so I wouldn't consider it box-ticking. Jackson definitely didn't use his films as a vehicle for diversity in the way some modern directors do. My original point was that if a director feels that on-screen diversity is important then don't just clumsily impose it onto a world where it didn't exist or make sense. Leave those worlds be, and make new ones.

But that's sort of my point.

If someone did view it as box-ticking, would that validate their reason for this adaptation to 'not be called the Hobbit'? It's still a bogus argument either way. That person just doesn't agree with the adaptation and is interpreting a certain change to the story/world to reflect the real world, even though it may not be the case.

I've seen similar criticisms over the choice to emphasize the 'I am not a Man!' slaying of the Witch King scene completely omitting the fact that in the books, he was hurt by a Merry's magical dagger that made him vulnerable to mortal weapons. Was it intentional to empower women? Was it just an oversight to cut down on unnecessary scenes? Is it both? Well it could be interpretted any way. I still don't think any interpretation would justify this not being a Lord of the Rings adaptation or imply Peter Jackson should have created his own universe because he couldn't abide to every detail. Cuz at the end of the day, what we're discussing is the details, and we can either look at it as something not very important, or hyper-focus on it as if it's the most important thing in the world. And no one is wrong in how they choose to interpret it.

I just don't think 'they should just make their own universe' is a valid criticism to make, because ultimately that is what an adaptation is. Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings is Lord of the Rings in his vision and universe. It is not Tolkien's LOTR, it is Peter Jackson's LOTR. They aren't the same universe even if we choose to regard it to be a very good adaptation.

[bagina]

Eh. Can't you just give zero shits about complains over an all-white cast too then, just as you're giving zero shits about any criticisms of Aladdin?

The only real difference here is that you give zero shits about one and not the other, rather than there being any difference between a 'fairy tale' and 'fantasy fiction'.

There are media you care about and media you don't care about. No, it's the people who complain about all white cast should not give a shit. Unless it's literally white people replacing pre-existing non-white ones or vice-versa. If it's an original show it doesn't matter to me and shouldn't to anyone.

[Triceron]

There are media you care about and media you don't care about. No, it's the people who complain about all white cast should not give a shit. Unless it's literally white people replacing pre-existing non-white ones or vice-versa. If it's an original show it doesn't matter to me and shouldn't to anyone.

'Rings of Power' is an original show, set in the Lord of the Rings universe.

Tolkien did not write a specific 'Rings of Power' series. Everything we're getting is gonna be an adaptation of external material that we have, be it from Silmarillion or his notes or other works.

I don't really know what you're considering as not an original show, since this is exactly what this is.

Like, most of the announced human characters in this series are completely new, and non-canonical to Tolkien's works.

[Rendark]

Looks like crap. If they are going to just make shit up why not make their own thing?

[Dhrizzle]

But that's sort of my point.

If someone did view it as box-ticking, would that validate their reason for this adaptation to 'not be called the Hobbit'? It's still a bogus argument either way. That person just doesn't agree with the adaptation and is interpreting a certain change to the story/world to reflect the real world, even though it may not be the case.

I've seen similar criticisms over the choice to emphasize the 'I am not a Man!' slaying of the Witch King scene completely omitting the fact that in the books, he was hurt by a Merry's magical dagger that made him vulnerable to mortal weapons. Was it intentional to empower women? Was it just an oversight to cut down on unnecessary scenes? Is it both? Well it could be interpretted any way. I still don't think any interpretation would justify this not being a Lord of the Rings adaptation or imply Peter Jackson should have created his own universe because he couldn't abide to every detail. Cuz at the end of the day, what we're discussing is the details, and we can either look at it as something not very important, or hyper-focus on it as if it's the most important thing in the world. And no one is wrong in how they choose to interpret it.

I just don't think 'they should just make their own universe' is a valid criticism to make, because ultimately that is what an adaptation is. Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings is Lord of the Rings in his vision and universe. It is not Tolkien's LOTR, it is Peter Jackson's LOTR. They aren't the same universe even if we choose to regard it to be a very good adaptation.

Merry was done dirty throughout the movie trilogy. In the books he's a bona fide badass from the start and the other hobbits would probably have died on the way to Bree without him.

- - - Updated - - -

Looks like crap. If they are going to just make shit up why not make their own thing?

It's roughly based on parts of the Silmarilion which is basically the entire history of Tolkien's world from before creation to the end of the War of the Ring (the bit we see in the movies) and slightly beyond.

[Shadowferal]

I frankly admit a series based upon what might have been going on with the two blues would have more of my attention.

I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

[melodramocracy]

Clearly I'm behind the 8 ball, just watched the 1 min trailer. The same ultra clean, oversaturated look that unfortunately seems to be a hallmark of modern streaming service cinematography.

[Triceron]

I frankly admit a series based upon what might have been going on with the two blues would have more of my attention.

I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

I really enjoyed how Games Workshop depicted some of the extended universe material, like the Easterlings and the Southrons.

I wouldn't mind a series that explored more of the 'Tolkienverse', even if it weren't completely canonical.

[Coniferous]

Just to be clear, I think its silly to care about authorial intent because what we have today is so beyond what Tolkien could have imagined. The production values, the CGI, the way movies and series are made and whatnot. Not because I don't respect Tolkien's view.

I think this can still feel like LOTR. It is telling more stories in this universe. Even if it is not 100% faithful (which it could never be), i like the universe and I am excited to be able to visit again. And if turns out to be bad, well, I will probably get bummed for a day or two and move on. I rather have a bad adaptation than no adaptation at all, after all I can just forget it.

The point is not necessarily authorial intent but more about the feeling that goes with the universe.

I’m not opposed to updating anachronistic parts of a story - for example, Troy obviously had to update the character of Briseis to not be Achilles’ sex slave - but if you change too much it stops being the same story. Troy, while it was not a great movie, managed to keep the feeling of Achilles as intended - the kind of flamboyant soldier out for glory.

LOTR is about a traditional, simplistic world view that is also very kindhearted with a basic good vs. evil narrative. Turning it into a story about the struggles of a single mother in this fantasy world, or about how a woman can fight just as well as a man, just doesn’t fit. Those are fine stories to tell in other places but they don’t belong here. If it becomes Galadriel fighting against elven patriarchy while Elrond schemes to become king, as the (admittedly limited) info we have so far suggests, that’s just not a story that has anything to do with lotR. Let it be what it is.

[Dhrizzle]

The point is not necessarily authorial intent but more about the feeling that goes with the universe.

I’m not opposed to updating anachronistic parts of a story - for example, Troy obviously had to update the character of Briseis to not be Achilles’ sex slave - but if you change too much it stops being the same story. Troy, while it was not a great movie, managed to keep the feeling of Achilles as intended - the kind of flamboyant soldier out for glory.

LOTR is about a traditional, simplistic world view that is also very kindhearted with a basic good vs. evil narrative. Turning it into a story about the struggles of a single mother in this fantasy world, or about how a woman can fight just as well as a man, just doesn’t fit. Those are fine stories to tell in other places but they don’t belong here. If it becomes Galadriel fighting against elven patriarchy while Elrond schemes to become king, as the (admittedly limited) info we have so far suggests, that’s just not a story that has anything to do with lotR. Let it be what it is.

Actually that sounds pretty close to Eowyn and Wormtongue at Theoden's court.

[bagina]

'Rings of Power' is an original show, set in the Lord of the Rings universe.

Tolkien did not write a specific 'Rings of Power' series. Everything we're getting is gonna be an adaptation of external material that we have, be it from Silmarillion or his notes or other works.

I don't really know what you're considering as not an original show, since this is exactly what this is.

Like, most of the announced human characters in this series are completely new, and non-canonical to Tolkien's works.

Nah sorry that's such bullshit and you know it. It's not an original show, it's a LOTR show banking specifically on Tolkien's work, that's the whole reason it has any publicity. The world he created and many characters with clear cut lore and origins. Adding your "new and exciting characters" is not an argument you seem to think it is, it only makes it worse, it's further disrespecting the work.

[Sluvs]

The point is not necessarily authorial intent but more about the feeling that goes with the universe.

I’m not opposed to updating anachronistic parts of a story - for example, Troy obviously had to update the character of Briseis to not be Achilles’ sex slave - but if you change too much it stops being the same story. Troy, while it was not a great movie, managed to keep the feeling of Achilles as intended - the kind of flamboyant soldier out for glory.

LOTR is about a traditional, simplistic world view that is also very kindhearted with a basic good vs. evil narrative. Turning it into a story about the struggles of a single mother in this fantasy world, or about how a woman can fight just as well as a man, just doesn’t fit. Those are fine stories to tell in other places but they don’t belong here. If it becomes Galadriel fighting against elven patriarchy while Elrond schemes to become king, as the (admittedly limited) info we have so far suggests, that’s just not a story that has anything to do with lotR. Let it be what it is.

I have no clue of galadriel's role in the story and to be honest, nothing that I have seen so far indicates that. While LOTR is about simple good vs evil, Silmarillion does get a little bit more involved in politics, albeit not a lot afterall Sauron will have to con some people.

[BigToast]

LOTR is about a traditional, simplistic world view that is also very kindhearted with a basic good vs. evil narrative. Turning it into a story about the struggles of a single mother in this fantasy world, or about how a woman can fight just as well as a man, just doesn’t fit

Tell that to Eowyn.

[Triceron]

Nah sorry that's such bullshit and you know it. It's not an original show, it's a LOTR show banking specifically on Tolkien's work, that's the whole reason it has any publicity. The world he created and many characters with clear cut lore and origins. Adding your "new and exciting characters" is not an argument you seem to think it is, it only makes it worse, it's further disrespecting the work.

Ah, you meant as in a show that isn't tied to other works. Understandable then

[Toppy]

I really wonder why nobody complained about Éowyn even though the fandom is apparently full of "incels"? How did Tolkien and Peter Jackson get away with it?

It reminds me of the Star Wars thing. How hating Rey marked you as misogynist just because you dont like Rey. Doesnt matter that there are multiple beloved female characters in Star Wars, both jedi and not.

Its just that Rey was shit.

[Sluvs]

It reminds me of the Star Wars thing. How hating Rey marked you as misogynist just because you dont like Rey. Doesnt matter that there are multiple beloved female characters in Star Wars, both jedi and not.

Its just that Rey was shit.

I don't know what you are talking about since people literally still complain about that. Even if it is just a little. There is also the obvious thing that by the third movie LOTR had already proved itself to be a masterpiece of a trilogy and the fact that it was not in any trailer. TBH I don't think both situations are comparable.

[Toppy]

I don't know what you are talking about since people literally still complain about that. Even if it is just a little. There is also the obvious thing that by the third movie LOTR had already proved itself to be a masterpiece of a trilogy and the fact that it was not in any trailer. TBH I don't think both situations are comparable.

Thats not what I meant. The idea was that its dumb to call someone an incel just because they dislike a female character. If the person were an incel their hatred would be spread out; it wouldnt be that they just hate Rey they'd hate all the females.

Its not just that they hate, say, the Elf woman in Hobbit, they would hate Eowyn too 'casue grrrr ladies.

[Sluvs]

Thats not what I meant. The idea was that its dumb to call someone an incel just because they dislike a female character. If the person were an incel their hatred would be spread out; it wouldnt be that they just hate Rey they'd hate all the females.

Its not just that they hate, say, the Elf woman in Hobbit, they would hate Eowyn too 'casue grrrr ladies.

Yeah, I get that. But let's face it the amount of vitriol and hatred that this series is taking is beyond justification.

Also, the Eowyn thing still angers a small amount of the people in the fandom. To be 100% honest with you I just think it is a shame that the entire fandom is just being so negative about this.

[Xath]

Listen, I know that you think you are keeping the sanctity of the text by arguing this but in the end the only thing you are truly arguing for is the lack of representation for black people. You might think you are in a high horse, but it all boils down to: I don't want black elves. Which you have to agree, even in this case, is silly.

And while I can see where you coming from, you are currently trying to say that Tolkien would have hated this. While you might be right, you also might be very wrong. All of Tolkien talking points about culture in a broader sense, we might extrapolate what he would think but there was no discussion of representation in his time.

Instead of trying to puppeteer the dead to make a point, we should probably take the series for what it is: an adaptation. Changes happen, it is impossible to be 100% faithful to the material. E.G.: the lack the battle of the shire in the movies was heartbreaking for me. I think It could be an awesome way to end the movie, and it is WAY more plot relevant than black elves existing.

If I was an author, I would be WAY more pissed if they changed the plot, than if they included a black character where there was none.

People are posting quotes and whatnot, believing that they are making a grand stand. But, IMHO, they are just against black elves and black dwarves. And that seems like a crappy point to me.

At this point, the series is bound to be underwhelming, no matter how good or bad it is. The hype so gigantic, the outrage so enormous... The jury is already out. Which I think it is a shame.

If people could look past the lack of Tom Bombadil, the lack of the battle of the shire and the inumerous inconsistencies of the hobbit, surely they could look past a black elf. It is just a shame that they choose not to do it.

The series should be judged by itself, instead it is being judged based on nothing but casting.

This generational war is tiresome and pointless.

No I don't want random sprinkling of races. If you want to make a tribe of elves that live in an area that it makes sense for them to have darker skin that's fine in fact that's great. That's expanding on the world. However they still shouldn't have buzz cuts. Electric Razors aren't a thing in Tolkienland so that fade has gotta go but long haired tribe of elves that are black and helping the men of the east resist Sauron would be awesome. Expand on the previously established concepts don't tokenize them.

[Sluvs]

No I don't want random sprinkling of races. If you want to make a tribe of elves that live in an area that it makes sense for them to have darker skin that's fine in fact that's great. That's expanding on the world. However they still shouldn't have buzz cuts. Electric Razors aren't a thing in Tolkienland so that fade has gotta go but long haired tribe of elves that are black and helping the men of the east resist Sauron would be awesome. Expand on the previously established concepts don't tokenize them.

You do realize that it is possible to have a buzzcut without actually using eletric razors right? That being said. I 100% agree with you that using it as a world building component would be INFINITELY better.

But it does not bother me as it is though.